One captivating aspect of the NS universe has been the jarring industrial realism of the NS world, which set it trillions of astronomical units above any other current sci-fi series. Exactly that is probably the single most well-played feature in the game universe.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of seeing the dogmatic sounds in space, laser beams, force walls frequently referred to as shields, subspaces (thanks nancy) and hyperspaces, FTL spaceships accelerating at speeds which would tear a main battle tank apart (pilots black out at an embarrassingly small 10gs of force) and other pseudobabble permeating all forms of sci-fi and turning those into fantasy. NS manages to keep all of this to a comfortable minimum. /stop rant

The scientific weak point of NS1 is the Quantum Phase Gate. As any quantum mechanics physicist will tell you, anything a non-quantum physicist utters with the word Quantum in it is 100% pseudoscience and should be taken as such. There can be a couple of theories explaining how a Phase Gate actually works but none of them can actually promise truly instantaneous, or even > c travel.


Important stuff bolded for emphasis.

What it looks like to me is that all specs on the technology in question are kept at 100% secrecy. We can safely guess that the technology was deemed unsafe (since it isn't too expensive compared to anything else, a shotgun is 10 res and a phase gate is 15 res) for personal use and the only ones who are allowed to use it are the ones who can't function without it.

Since it has Quantum in its name I guess it has something to do with the state of molecules. Maybe the subject in question is disassembled molecule by molecule, encoded, sent by molecules in a particular arrangement and then beamed over the ship nano-grid to the receiving phase gate. The end-gate receives the information (electrical charge, location of molecules etc...) and material, then reassembles the subject. I can see how not a lot of people would opt to go through this process because, "what is death, cloning ethics, etc...?"

I think that phase gates which transport whole ships are out of the question since there are no nano-grids in space, besides, they are 100% pseudoscience with no redeeming arguments to be made about them.

Next weak point is why a combat shotgun costs as much as an armory. NS explanation: nanites.

My explanation:
1) The armory is made out of some resource-cheap alloy as are all of the other buildings, but the shotgun is made out of military grade nanosteel.
2) The armory is actually simpler than a shotgun internally. It only converts nanites to specialist nanites and gives them the correct programming to assemble the weapons. The GL and the HMG ammunition actually uses exotic material which needs special programming that a basic armory can't handle. (HMG batteries for magnetic acceleration and GL explosive stuff made out of explosive nanites)

Things I'd want in NS2:
Stuff which is assembled the old fashioned way by stamping and soldering. Contrary to popular belief, this is actually cheaper and faster than assembling something molecule by molecule.

A solid explanation why robots/cyborgs aren't fighting the aliens. This is fairly easy to answer and would make for some great reading material. (Perhaps there was a robot uprising and people became paranoid?)

An explanation of why the Frontiersmen don't just research everything before going to combat and tear everything up with heavy armor HMGs. (Maybe the initial marine loadout is actually far superior to the exotic loadouts in the more standard vs human missions? Also, carrying enough ammo is a logistics nightmare, carrying 100 points of nanosludge is way more useful, which is why the weapon upgrades work - they actually improve the gunpowder created by the nanites, enhancing ballistics)

Thoughts? Other pet peeves?

I must say that I really enjoy trawling the unknown worlds website for the fan-fics and the writing is fantastic. The concept of nanites really does float my boat and all the phase gate stuff - so I'll see what I can address in reverse order of the above post.

1. Why don't marines go in fully loaded into the mission?

(At the same time I'd ask why the aliens don't wipe every living creature out and start with only a hive and a resource chamber. )

- To limit the Kharaa response:
From what I can gather the alien presence only becomes active when the marines begin to become active. In Six days of Sanjii it seemed that the aliens clogged part of the Mongol command grid being conscious of the marines activity in there (i think). SO maybe if we send in the bare minimum they won't notice. Considering that all that is added to the combat zone is the marines, their command station and a resource tower, the Kharaa may well not pick up the activity. BUT - if they go in with exotic ammunition, fuels, masses of plasteel, quantum phase gate components, etc. that don't pre-exist in the combat zone then there may be a greater reaction. (though I would like to know if the frontiersmen go in through a hatch or materialise through the command grid at the start of a mission)

- Quarantine:
Most of the alien infestations are in airtight areas where the bacteria (building blocks for the kharaa) are contained. I know if I had to choose I'd put in the minimum amount of gear that could be contaminated into the area - stuff the cannon fodder that has to carry it - they're expendable but my gear is not.

which neatly brings me to point

2. Why not robots and cyborgs?

- Price:
Face it, in the western environment that most NS players live in the rights of the individual are overly protected. But less than 100 years ago generals had very few qualms in sending young men in their hundreds and thousands into a no mans land bristling with machine guns and barbed wire. The Russians of world war 2 would send out squads with only a handful of firearms and expect the unarmed members to equip themselves with weapons scavenged off their fallen comrades. Life is cheap - cheaper than making a robot or a cyborg (although I think a Master Chief vs. an Onos would be funny if overly brief combat (charge-swallow-pooped out bungee helmet))

- Independant thought
As much as we'd like to say that an automated machine would do the job of a person we all know what it's like fighting against a bot. Nuff said.

3. Why not use old fashioned manufacturing methods (welding, drop forging, etc)

- Price:
Quote: Contrary to popular belief, this is actually cheaper and faster than assembling something molecule by molecule.
HOW DO YOU KNOW? perhaps the molecular assembly of the nanites IS cheaper. It is very difficult to say that this tech is faster/cheaper than that tech where the tech in question does not even exist in a mass produced functional form in our present day and age. Besides ... it's cool.

The above argument for a shotgun being a simmilar price to an armoury is quite satisfactory - I've wondered about that one as well - gj.

4. phase gates and even bigger phase gates.

- Wormholes:
If you want a good sci-fi book on how phase gates as wormholes would impact human culture, read Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga . Interesting is how almost all transport in his created future is based purely on wormholes. I'd suggest these books as they also to explain how a FTL ship would work. I'm not suggesting that these wormholes be transversible versions of a Lorentzian Einstein-Rosen bridge, but some sort of stable wormhole tech would be perfect for phase gates and the like, circumventing the what is death what is cloning ethics dilemma of a reassembled entity.

BTW I'm really looking forward to seeing what else pops up on this thread. Haven't been posting long so don't know if there is copious amounts of info on nanites. If there's a good page on how they supposedly work I'd love to see it. Things like who the manufacturer is and who holds the patents and whether these guys have any control over the TSA and politics would also fascinate me.

By far my biggest peeve about the game in terms of realism is the blink ability of the fades. All the other abilities I can see replicated in our biosphere,
spitting chemicals ==> bombadier beetle
spinning webs ==> spiders of varous shapes and sizes
building chambers ==> termites, ants, coral etc (albeit slightly slower than a gorge)
flight ==> bats, birds
spines ==> tarantula
umbra ==> squid, skunks
parasites ==> parasites
blink ==> ...

yeah - blink requires me to suspend my disbelief - if it was just a jump of sorts like the flea being able to jump 30 x its own height I'd have no problems.

Why not? Maybe there are new theories




Yes, just like this, for example.




This cannot be said with certainty.



One explanation could be that these were protoypes and are only available as extentions. I know, this is a weak explanation. Another point is: While it would somehow work for Heavy Armour and Jetpacks it wouldn't work for Heavy Machineguns or Grenade launchers since it's unlikely that they are prototypes.

Another explanation would be that it needs a lot amount of energy to transfer something to a certain base and needing to penetrate both walls and floors and maybe even Khaara infestation and materialising everything on the nanogrid so that's why they send the bare minimum. Of course this explanation wouldn't work with maps such as hera since much more things could be transported via dropship or something like that so I think we merely focus on the maps where there is no visible physical access to the base at Marine Start.





These are living organisms and therefore require much energy and probably even some sort of food, that is why they don't want unnecessarily much stuff in their captured base and as I explained above the appearance of Marine activity is kind of a sneak attack, that is why they are unprepared.




That is not necessarily true. If you find the time I'd advise you to read Heinlein's Starship Troopers, a great, awesome book. As he says there the hard and difficult training of a soldier takes up much time and very much money so that is why they aren't really that expandable and not necessarily cheaper than robots.
Well, maybe they are but they are also more flexible and intelligent than robots and you'll have to count the gear they use in the battle, too.




Just as you said, in our biosphere.

Yes, blinking is quite odd since it accelerates the fade to a insane speed in almost no time. Some internal organ must inherit this function and no one has found out yet, just like it was unknown for a very long time which organ cats used to purr or have it worked.
The first blink ability, the one from 1.04, is rather interesting, too, since it just teleports the fade from one spot to another.


Sorry that I have so few ideas but I just couldn't come up with more solid stuff, the problems you are posing are interesting and challenging. Eh, I think I'll spend some more time thinking about it, especially the phase gate problem, though it's very unlikely that I'll come up with anything good.

I'd like to hear the story from the actual story writer, if there even is one.
(Didn't the guy who wrote "Six days in Sanjii" leave?)

I thought Flayra wrote Six days in Sanjii?

I don't know.
This post states otherwise.
http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....st&p=508913

Thanks for the reply Disco Stu.

1. I prefer my explanation. The alien hive is locked into its initial location by the ship's containment mechanisms (eg DOORS). The hive only has access to a single node which it needs for food. Protip: If you isolate a hive an leave it without food for enough time, it'd either downscale into bacteria or wither completely because thats how everything works gg. Since the hive needs the one res-node as the source of food, its very reluctant to maintain a standing army of 5843085430584390 onii and fades. And then the marines come and power on the ship, opening most intact doors.

2. The marine team can actually come to the ship with 100,000 men equipped in exoskeletons and wielding nuclear heat seeking grenade launchers that can shoot through walls and the aliens team will have no way of knowing that the army is en route until they get INSIDE the ship. Sure the alien team can respond by building an army of 100,000 onii, but the marine team will have a time window of AT LEAST a minute in which they can hop on a train of steam rollers and steam roll over everything on the map. Then leave when the onii finish gestating and let them starve to death.

Why don't the marine team do this? Because they are equipped to fight another war, somewhere else. There is a reason why the assault carbine/rifle is the standard weapon in armies and not the machine gun or shotgun. There is also a reason why tanks aren't used in all operations, they just don't have the mobility of infantry. This should be reflected in the NS exoskeleton, they should be slowed to 50% instead of the current 90%. They don't/aren't supposed to venture far from the phase gates anyway. The vanilla marine should also be made more agile with the standard loadout vs a heavy loadout.


Heh, agreed.


You have to supply every nanite with energy. In modern manufacture, you just have to supply the general structure in question with energy. Not to mention the obvious argument about the complexity of a nanite vs the complexity of what they are making. Why?


I would personally prefer for wormholes to be kept far away from my literature. The whole science behind them is sketchy and they are far removed from the near-future human feeling of NS. Besides, I kind of like the marines signing up for the whole molecular reassembly thing and then fighting deadly aliens. Its a romantic concept.


Nothing has negative energy density. Its like saying we should have anti-gravity which should be generated by stuff with negative mass. This isn't anywhere within our reach, we can't even dream about this sort of stuff yet. Almost every other piece of technology in NS is within our reach.

Edit: daidalos, molecules can't move faster than c so this is not Faster Than Light transportation. Also, in my explanation - well, how would you like to be dismantled molecule by molecule and then the sludge thats left gets reassembled into a clone of daidalos? And ships can probably reach near-relativistic speeds in the future, albeit slowly.


Its not about biosphere, its about the whole "folding space time" description that the NS team gave the ability. It isn't a jump because fades can blink mid-air. Maybe there are some rapidly expanding chemicals in the fade's bowels which it uses as jet exhaust? It'd be funny if the NS2 fades were designed with this in mind.

interesting thread. i mostly agree with anytime's theories. regarding the bots vs human soldiers argument, as has been said, humans are far more mobile, intelligent, adaptive, etc.; and a robot (and its AI) that can emulate human (or animal) movement and thought (efficiently), is something for the far future, if it is ever possible, imo. and yeah, traditional manufacturing techniques would be far cheaper and probably faster than assembling something by the molecule. FTL travel is purely fantasy though. Disassembling and reassembling someone to "transport" them is interesting, but I don't think it's plausible (given the complexity), or very cheap.

But then again, I doubt military grade nanotech is very cheap at all (read: WAY past the budget of any 2008AD Earth government) in the NS universe judging by the quality of life mentioned in some of the writing. (Read Six Days in Sanjii and all of the notes)

There is no leap of faith between intelligent nanobots which can limitlessly interact with the environment and nanites which can disassemble and reassemble a human, sending non-nanite molecules over the nanogrid doesn't require one either.

That molecules can't travel faster than the speed of light isn't said for sure. The theory of relativity is called a theorey because it neither could be proven right nor wrong.
Of course we can say with some certainity that mass is getting heavier the faster it moves but maybe there is a way around that.
Because I always thought that the NS universe is settled far in the future, maybe one or two thousand years from now.
And that's why I don't think that these are clones, although this theory would be tempting because you would have the same personalities of the same people stored somewhere and everytime they motal shell could do no more they would replicate them in the Infantry Portals and use the same personalities - just like the soulstones from the Eldar.
Or these could be new soldiers which can be transported rapidly with some sort of fancy technology.

QFT!

The NS-technology is quite the standard scifi-stuff. And the nanobots are at least a good try to not make it sound too rediculous (like "the force" or something ). I didn't know that PG's have "quantum" in it btw.

I'd rather see some complete backstory (how did the war start) than more realistic technology.

Well, you don't blame fantasy for using magic and mana etc.
The force, in this kind of sense, is pretty logical - I mean, just as logical as magic would be in fantasy worlds.
Parts of Science-Fiction is Fantasy in a very advanced and progressive way.

Of course most of Science-Fiction ist Pseudoscience. That's why it's called fiction, after all.

On the subject of the TSA sending robots or humans, I always had the impression they were sending both, also known as (aka) cyborgs, while perhaps not as much as say Robocop. Marines do seem to enjoy a man-to-machine interface that is well beyond what one might expect from just a nice set of armor, especially when you consider the instantaneous nature of health and ammo packs, as well as how Marines sustain & survive damage from bites, cuts, acid, etc. without losing limbs and other parts of the human body.

The magical thing here is called armour and nanites.
I'd say the marines are completly human but their organism is enhanced through the use of nanobots and nanites and what not.
While that doesn't make them robots or robotic in any sense it changes them and supports their bodies.

As someone who knows a bit about quantum, I'm offended. j/k.

Currently theory for FTL travel is folding the space-time plane and making a jump. Simple idea, tough in practice.

I personally don't mind my science world getting moved ahead several years in speculation. Fun fact, several items from Star Trek are becoming reality. For example, see-through aluminum. And of course bluetooth systems have given us wireless communication anywhere. Funny thing is that it's not as though Star Trek figured it out, but more like they inspired people to try and see if it was truly possible.

So, in a way, good Sci-Fi can entertain, but also help direct our creative applications of the latest technology.

A) You have no idea what a scientific "theory" means then. If the theory of relativity is wrong, then EVERYTHING we know about the universe is wrong. This is simply not the case. In order for a "theory" to have any scientific weight, it has to have many experiments designed to disprove it, and they all have to fail under euclidean circumstances. A theory is more like 99.99999999999% certainty. There is no way around infinite energy requirements to move faster than speed of light and there is NO WAY you can claim this without being ridiculed in any scientific society.
B) It hasn't been stated anywhere that whatever comes out of the IP is a clone.



I completely disagree. NS is by no means standard because it has nearly 0 fantasy (minus aliens obv). Most current sci-fi is sci-fi/fantasy.


Most science-fiction is pseudoscience because it is bad science fiction and is not science-fiction at all. Science-fiction = technology we don't have/have no means of making yet. Fantasy = elves and unicorns which violate all laws of physics and magical shields which work by magic.



Also, any hits on extremities will always be glancing hits, and the only attack which has the ability to dismember is the fade swipe. Attacking an armored hand is the same thing as attacking the sloped armor of a modern battle tank, the shot will glance off. Therefore I assume fades always aim for the torso.


I know more than a bit about quantum physics, yet I'm still not going to claim that I have the slightest concept how any of it makes sense in the environment the physicists work in or how it relates to the real world.


A) Not simple idea. First of all, it'd take an ultra-massive black hole, much like the one in the center of our galaxy.
B) Impossible due to relativity TBH.
C) How would you get the technology which would let you break space and go straight through "another dimension"?


Why star trek sucks and should not be taken as real sci-fi:
http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/ATMOVIETrek.HTM

Don't even get me started on ground combat.
http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/Guns-ST.html


Of course don't let the fact that most sci-fi is utter rubbish with no realism value what so ever get in your way.

So? It can't be explicitely proven. There is a theory which awaits either it's falsification or verification and although it's not possible to use the former method and it's proven right by the latter one it still stays a theory. Maybe it's a matter of time until the falsification occurs and a theory that takes us even closer to reality takes its place, maybe it's as close as we can get.
How can you say it's 99.99999999999% right? Where did you get this number from?



That doesn't mean it couldn't be true, although it dooms this theory into the dark depths of unlikeliness.




Eeeh, no. You could invent a complelty new world which operates under it's very own, maybe even contradictive laws and theories. You have a limited view on the world of science-fiction. It's not merely technology we are unable to develop yet, it goes far beyond onto the more philosophical, metaphysical level, that's what I always liked about science-fiction - fantasy makes no use of that.

A scientific theory doesn't have to be explicitly proven to be true. Are you going to argue the atomic theory next?

If relativity was even SLIGHTLY wrong we wouldn't be able to get anything into correct orbit. If the atomic theory was even "slightly" wrong, we wouldn't have solid state lasers or nuclear reactions. Do you have a hard drive? You wouldn't have one if our atomic theory didn't exist.

The number "99.99999999999%" should only be used for visualization purposes. If it wouldn't take infinite energy to accelerate something to the speed of light, that would mean that e=mc^2 is wrong. It isn't.

So yuh, scientific theory, ESPECIALLY relativity is basically fact.


Science fiction always has to have a scientific basis, or it isn't science fiction. If you're going to create a new universe with different properties and then shove humanoids into it, thats pretty much called fantasy. The universe we're in is very delicate and if the physical laws were to be changed, it simply wouldn't form. But this is a very tough discussion I'd like to stay away from. e=mc^2 is pretty much undebatable.

Then again, we're debating definitions. I'd like a purist science fiction setting for NS.

Still, I'm going with my method of falsification and verification.
What we operate with are theories that try to explain the world as close as possible, but there never will be a theory that will define a phenomenon completly exact as it is. That's where I derive my impudent claim from that we cannot know if there is a backdoor or not.

And yes, science-fiction should have a scientific basis. In case of a fully imagined world it is the basis of their science. I don't see why this can't work.
After all we use our own concepts with wich we construct a world.

And could you define "purist science fiction setting", please?

In the case of back-doors, yes they might be possible. But these back doors can't disrupt what we already do know about the laws. Nothing will violate relativity or the equal action-reaction principle for example.


Their science isn't our science and it is clearly bad science. Can you imagine a world with elves dwarves and unicorns casting fireballs everywhere, they studied this ability at an arcane university of course. Is this science fiction? No. It is complete pseudobabble.


1) No violations of any laws of physics.
2) Every invention has to be in the realm of plausible.
3) The setting can't be millions of years into the future, because there is no way to predict anything that far ahead and it might as well include elves and unicorns.
4) Everything has to make sense and would work as if you plugged the technology into our current world. So no ground armies without long range weapons. No space ships with deadly control panels strapped with plastic explosives which are the #1 cause of fatalities in combat. etc...
5) I have to go back to making my steak & cheese

Sorry to take you all the way back to your opening post anytime. You seem relatively knowledgeable with you physics (pun not intended haha), but i thought a pilot in space would not experience g force due to there being no resistance in space, unless u are close to the orbit of a planet i suppose.

Anyway on to the post proper. I tend to find that if you think about the science of sci-fis too hard, you find yourself disappointed. Personally i have no problem with games/movies explaining things through descriptions like FTL, Dark matter reactors, cold fusion reactors etc. This is mainly to do with my non-scientific background i must admit, but really i think the main criteria for a science fiction technology is that it must be something that has at least a vague possibility of being realised in the future.

To be honest with the recent advancements in Quantum physics and string theory, I do not think its unreasonable to suggest that such technologies as teleportation are possible. Therefore i do not cringe when i see them in sci-fis.

HOWEVER, it must be a plausible technology. what i mean by this is humans must have a REASON to invent them. FTL and teleporting bring obvious benefits. BUT things such as laser weaponry and particle beam styled superweapons seem stupid to me. Why on earth would soldiers carry around lasers, which would presumedly require tons of energy and have a complex design, when they could easily use the simple and effective bullet discharging weapons. And why would we stop using nuclear warheads? (i cant even begin to imagine how enough energy would be needed to power a city-flattening laser beam).

For me it all comes down to PRACTICALITY. Humans generally latch onto a good concept and constantly improve upon it. This is why i like NS (and shows like the new battlestar galactica series, i ignore the religious connotations tho lol)... The technologies it contains are out of this world, yet at the same time not completely contrived (Nanites are ALREADY being tested for medical purposes and nanotechnology is one of the fastest growing scientific fields).

my 2 cents, feel VERY free to disagree, I love these kinds of discussions

:o What is acceleration?

Its quite alright, you'd be surprised at what misconceptions people have about physics.


That is not good enough, I want to be not disappointed. I'm not disappointed when I read Asimov's work for the most part.


Quantum physics and string theory have nothing to do with "teleportation". "Teleportation" is impossible and is what a layman deduces after watching a quantum physicist work, don't take it too seriously.


Thanks, this covers the practicality aspect of realistic science fiction. But realistic science fiction just wouldn't be science fiction to me if universe breaking cannons and force walls are involved.

Your reply to my g force question left me confused. ill try and illustrate my confusion with an example: on a roller coaster high positive g is experienced when the car's path curves upwards, where riders feel as if they weigh more than usual. This is often reversed when the car's path curves downwards, and lower than normal g is felt, causing the riders to feel lighter or even weightless.

How can these sensations be felt in space if you are weightless in space? Please consider yourself a physics teacher for a moment ^^. I have already confessed not knowing much about physics... help me out.



Fair enough... But i always feel the word 'impossible' is a word that should be used with caution in physics. Not to say that there are things that simply CANNOT happen, but keep in mind there was a time when people argued it was 'impossible' that the earth is round, the sun is in the center of the solar system etc. Sure string theory and quantum physics probably cannot account for teleportation, but perhaps theres a realm of physics and physical law that we simply have not stumbled across yet. However i will accept that the concept of a "Quantum teleporter" is a contrived appropriation of the term quantum.



Agreed. Pretty much the point i was trying to make.

Oh and btw my brother's girlfriend is a physics PhD and has won pretty prestigious awards (shes the kind of physicist that talks about nothing else except physics lol), and she shattered my hopes and dreams by telling me that faster then light travel is pretty much 'impossible' too. Damn! One can dream though... one can dream....

Are you a physics PhD too anytime? Hehe

Gravity is a distortion of space, although it should be explained as a force acting on you. Acceleration is the change in velocity. Whether you go up or down on a roller coaster, the centripetal acceleration due to gravity (g) always remains constant, what changes is the acceleration (a). The constant acceleration due to gravity is ~9.8m/s^2. Acceleration as you know, is constantly added to your velocity until you either hit terminal velocity in atmosphere, or the speed of light in a vacuum.

Gravity is one force which constantly accelerates you by 9.8m/s^2. Do you know another force which can accelerate you faster than 9.8m/s^2? I know one! Jet propulsion. What do you think 10gs of force means? it means 10 of 9.8m/s^2 worth of acceleration.


A) People argued that the Earth was round when there was very little/no science to speak of, e.g. think mesopotamians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth
A) Newton pretty much crushed the dreams of heliocentrists, much like Albert Einstein crushed the dreams of sci-fi writers who think that > c travel is or ever will be possible.

I don't understand what this has to do with some things being impossible. Try to take the shortest path between your computer and the outside (through walls, without destroying them), looks hard? Try it again in 2000 years and tell me if it becomes any easier. Was it any harder 2000 years ago?


Much like the hidden potential of every human being to become an elven fire mage and master ice magicks and have a pet dragon which is also a unicorn.


Fortunately, no. Heh. But I've spent all day today packing my stuff (with frequent internet breaks) so I could move back into the university for another session of "learning". Yea, the stuff you learn at universities.

I was simply making the point that not all scientific knowledge is known to us. Though we know more than our hapless ancestors who thought the Earth was flat, there are still MANY things we are clearly yet to find out. We exist in an environment that has a set a physical laws that our body has adapted, accordingly we have defined physics around these laws. Which is fine. but this does not mean that these physical laws are constant throughout time and existence. I cannot give you an example because i am not capable of even expressing physical conditions that are not restrained by my own.

Not too long ago "quantum" meant nothing to anyone. Maybe there is an "x" physics that we just don't know about. Making assumptions about what can't be done generally leads to scientists narrowing their field of inquiry. For example, the fundamental theory of thermal dynamics was challenged when some physicists argued that matter in fact CAN be destroyed. Although those that maintain the traditional view dominate the argument, this debate nonetheless continues. Those who simply say 'matter can't be destroyed and that's that' contribute little to such exciting debates.



You mean if I invent a Quantum-accelerator time machine and travel 50 000 years into the future by bending the space-time continuum i will be able to by a pet dragon and use ice magic!!! SWWEEEeeeet!

Getting back to NS now... anytime, you (very understandably) seem to regard teleporting as impossible, and therefore "unrealistic" even in a sci-fi universe. So does this mean you dont want to see phase gates in NS? Apologies if you have already mentioned this. If so offer I'd love to hear ideas for an alternative

Basically what I meant was that it is impossible to express the world around is in mathematical equations or scientific theories. We'll always be able to find new theories which we can use to express the world even more accurate but I don't think it will ever be possible to make theories more than a blurred and distorted mirror image of reality.
Yes, by today's means it is impossible to accelerate anything so it can reach the speed of ligth approximately but I just don't want to give up the hope that there will be a way to work around that someday.
The connotation is that the theory of relativity is just another attempt to explain and describe the laws of physics, in this case the ones of mass and acceleration.

Maybe I'm completly wrong but since I'll get my fair share of this from October on I'll find out sooner or later.

Well, I'm glad we all have very nice credentials for this modern physics discussion and that anytime is in fact giving perhaps the most sound and real physics of all, at least what we believe right now. But my goodness those posts are long. Moving along.

In regards to anytime's original thoughts, I'm pretty sure the backstory elements and pseudo-science were merely to fill in the gaps. After all, how do you explain stuff randomly materializing out of the air? Granted we can blame engine limitations from back then, but I doubt there was much more to it than simply filling some gaps.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially you would like a slightly more fleshed out and realistic description of some of the working in NS. As you said, nanites aren't the best way to build most item, such as a shotgun or turret.

I believe I can account for one item. Why Marines don't pre-tech. Besides breaking the game balance, I think the original line of thought was that this was the initial survey team, forced into combat. Granted, this doesn't hold up quite as well in NS2. However, perhaps usually all it takes is a few Marines marching in and cleaning out a small growing Hive or a few escaped Skulks. One of my favorite lines from Old Man's War is, and I paraphrase, that the army gives you the bare minimum to do the job. It usually doesn't take Heavy Armor. And the forces are stretched thin as it is. The Command Chair is integrated into the ship/station. So, our battles are the rare occasion it isn't a minor clean up job, but a real battle. In which case they need to acquire better tech and weaponry from their superiors, which costs resources. Precious resources they weren't equipped with and have to siphon out of the system, refine it, and use it to augment the equipment they have available. As far as "researching" the technology, perhaps think of it more as upgrades to the buildings and load outs and the building needs to develop and download the proper techs for your men in the field, as well as up load them into the central system so you can utilize them in the field.

For example, better armor is part of what is loaded onto you when you come in. But, for the IP (or whatever they're called in NS2) to give better armor, they need to get the schematics from command and integrate into the IP so the next time you come through, you have better armor.

Yes, this good, I kinda like it.

They send in a small combat team with their minimal gear into the combat zone because all it takes to take down a hive are a few shotgungs which can be easily acquired by building an armoury. That way the TSA doesn't have to spend too many resources (because there are probably many fights going on at the same time).
But as soon as the marines get there the hive gets more conscious and the skulks start being more active and soon the marines encounter them and the struggle begins.
The first problem would be: Why do marines build resource towers instead of going right for the hive - this is their mission, to clean the area from any Khaara activity. So why would they waste time for something like that?
There are two possible answers for that:
1. They want to win the area back section for section. That means they build resource towers to "mark" the acquired land and to move on so they can circle the hive and bring it down - the Khaara won't let them.
2. They know that the place is swarming with aliens and need more resources and therefore more advanced technology to face the growing menace, but this solution would pose another problem/question: Why won't they enter the combat zone with already upgraded gear if they know that the place is full of Khaara? It only takes one time to research new technology and from then on it's available to them.
Because in NS2 they will already know how the trick works.

While the first possibility would work in NS1, they enter a combat zone and have little to no idea what they will encounter, NS2 takes the combat further where/when they have already gathered intelligence on the strategies of the Khaara and know that it's better to go in well prepared.
A possible solution for that would be the bigger amount of battles to be fought. While it was just the beginning in NS1 the war is already going on for some time in NS2 and the TSA just can't spare to give them more equipment.
This however doesn't solve the problem of the researched technology.
Another issue concerning this problem would be the prototype lab. Some in this forum has mentioned this a long time ago: The jetpack and Heavy Armour, already tested in combat, is not really a prototype. Well, maybe it need even more testing, but the marines know how it operates and the scientists have already gathered much information about this kind of equipment, so they could aswell send them into the combat zone with that information being no need for the Commander to research it.

Any ideas?

sorry when im going offtopic now. Im quite interested in the topic about black holes, but never
found the time to read more about than what is written on the first pages at wikipedia.

You were talking about g forces and accelerations and im all the time wondering what
you would see if you

a.) travel in a black hole (before being dead?)

b.) the others would see from outside


sorry for my english, its not so specific in that topic

You'd see the center of the black hole. That is all you can POSSIBLY see in a black hole because all straight lines lead to the center of the black hole inside it.


They'd see you get sucked in/torn apart/crushed into a singularity. You'd essentially turn into the black hole and your atomic mass will eventually be radiated out of the hole in the form of light elements and energy.

i was expecting something like: because gravity influences light speed, and because light speed is constant, time will be
"slowed down" and the shorter the distance between the object and the center of the black hole is, the "slower it will" move. (your experience from outside)

on the other side everything around you (when you are that object) will drastically speed up the shorter the distance to the center.

the thing about radiation (stephen hawkin said it?) I already knew, but if that what I wrote above is true, my question becomes much
more interesting (I read few things about LHC and possible dangers from it's results)

one question would be like: Can "time" be infinite fast, so you will see eternety?

I know too less about physics, thats why Im asking and sorry again for being off topic

I disagree, to give a backstory on why the marines dont go in fully armed to the teeth you have to look at the bigger picture...

The battle between the Khaara and Man is not just the skirmish you encounter in each map... It is a huge struggle on many space stations, planets. The Millitary is spread accross all known space fighting the Khaara as they appear in pockets accross the galaxy. By the way the at the start of each game the Khaara only start with one hive and basic life forms we must Presume that they have recentyl arrive and are thus only a small pocket. The Millitary would not send in elite troops with very advanced and expensive equipment to a small pocket of infestation. However as the Khaara give more and more resistance the Commander is able to requisition more and more equipment to destory the Khaara.



Blink reminds me of the Barracuda as it can do bursts as fast as 36 mph (58 kph) when they go to strike prey... Ive seen this and it as though the fish is just a blur until it stops again also consider that water is ALOT denser than air... I think the possiblity is there...

After seeing how hard it is to fight the aliens on the ground and thinking about how simple it'd be to win if you just had a SLIGHT advantage in the form of HMGs/shotguns and HA/Jetpacks from the start. I think the TSA would honestly start equipping marines with that stuff from the start. My explanation still wins.


Fair point, what mechanism does the fade use to move through the air though? Jet propulsion?

Did this explanation tell you everything you needed, wankalot? If not I might be able to help clarify it.

Gravity is a very unique force, in that it is impossible to actually feel. Gravity acts on all parts of you equally, accelerating your entire body through space together, so you don't notice a change. (Exception -- Tidal forces can change this slightly, but those are rare enough that we can ignore them for now.) What you normally DO feel is the force of the ground or your chair pushing UP on you, coincidentally by the same amount as the force of gravity most of the time, except this force is all concentrated near your feet. This time you can feel it because your feet are being pushed up towards the rest of your body, and so you feel compressed. Since we normally walk around every day being compressed by 1 G worth of force, that feels normal to us, and so we feel weird coming down the slope of that rollercoaster when w are compressed by much less force, possibly as little as 0 in freefall.

Now, how does this relate to space travel? Most spaceships have a large engine strapped on to the back, and the ship moves by turning on the engine. But the engine doesn't affect the entire ship directly, the engine works by pushing real hard against the part of the ship closest to it, which then pushes real hard on the next part of the ship, and so on until we reach the pilots chair. When the Engine is off, you are correct that the pilot feels no Gs at all. He is weightless. But when the Engine is turned on, the pilot is only going to keep moving at the same speed as the rest of the ship because the Pilot's chair is now pushing real hard on his back. Even though the force of gravity on the pilot is still almost nothing, he now feels quite a bit of weight, because the chair pushing on him now is basically the same force he felt every day on Earth whenever he sat down.

So the last question is, how HARD does the chair push against the pilot? If it pushes more than about 10 times harder than the pilot's chair did back home on earth ("10 Gs"), he's going to black out from the pressure. But if it pushes less than 10 times harder, that means the ship is not going to reach distant star systems any time soon. This is the point of unrealism that Anytime brought up originally.

Edit: I can't believe it actually censored wankalot's name. >.>

Interesting thing that point, it makes me wonder where all the civilians got off to, in a infection incursion is only "recent" - though of course, recent is a relative term.

Still, I like to think the Kharaa hibernate till the Marine's show up and only use energy and resources as a response to them showing up. The Kharaa infection is basicly a bunch of shape shifters, IMHO.

The part of the story that I feel needs explanation is that if what was before was the first encounter of a sorts and this is now a recognized all out war, why don't the humans atomize targets from orbit? Oh, nevermind, I just thought of a reason, the human race would be constantly torching their own resources and the Kharaa would just keep trucking through the stars unabated.

Actually, how do the Kharaa truck through the stars? Do they launch themselves as spore encased in asteroids or something? Can they communicate and coordinate over stellar distances? Are new infections autonomous? Does the "blink" and "cloak" of the Kharaa indicate that they have discovered other methods of spore dispersion and communication? Does it use the same forces of nature that Marines do to phase and portal as well?

Good questions? We've been bugging around the TSA and their FTL travel, phasegate quantum stuff - but how do the kharaa get around?

From what I can understand the distance between planets within a single solar system is months of travel at conventional methods. If this limitation applied to a non-technology based life form we could expect a simple isolation of the kharaa within a specific solar system. (Not to mention the problem of solar winds, radiation, the vacuum of space, the minus 270 odd deg C that comes with space travel.)

Possible solution:

Other non-combat evolutions.

If this were the case then it would be completely feasible that the kharaa were amassing the nurtients from the nano-sludge for an uber-huge evolve that would allow something like dimensional travel or FTL or blink tavel etc. Maybe a giant cannon that fires an Onos with a fade stuck to its butt for extra propulsion.

This would also be a neat solution as to why the aliens only have one hive going when the marines arive - they need the rez for the big morph.

What would be scary is the aliens being able to learn in a certain type of form. A form intelligent enough to start self modification at a genetic level. This would allow a custom build of an insterstellar form capable of spreading the alien DNA. Note that the amount of info stored on normal human DNA is vast - enough to fill 100 gig hard drives stacked up to the moon (or some such impressive example). That amount of info storage would be plenty if they could modify their storage info.

So what do you think - should the kharaa have anything other than their standard combat forms? And if they have an interstellar travel form should it be a giant cannon, a mass of blinking spores (wow - that sounds like a pirate cursing) or some other weird morph?

You're assuming the Kharaa have infinite resources to send stuff through the stars. That is ridiculous to think about, do you know how much energy it takes to simply resist gravitational forces? It'd make plenty of sense if the Kharaa are a biological weapon which was used by some state on the Mongols, but then it spiraled out of control. That would mean that the Kharaa don't have that far to travel between systems.

When did I assume that? A single planet can have lots of resources - now toss in any number of them the Kharaa infection has made it to.

Besides, we already know they have made it out of gravity wells, Marines are fighting them on space stations and ships, so once they have passed that hurdle, now they can use gravity to their advantage to sling around solar systems.

If the shape shifters were a bio weapon went wrong, where is the Achilles Heel that the designers of the shape shifting infection would have designed in? Surely there are far more simple bio weapons that could be used than something with the ability to evolve on micro and macro at incredible rates. Nah, I much prefer the notion that while exploring the stars, humans inadvertently bumped into the Kharaa, tried to declare the place a no fly zone while they cleaned up but discovered they had far underestimated the level Kharaa were already on and now its interstellar war where the stakes couldn't be higher.

Or that the khaara have just landed, say in a comet that collides with a planet or maybe even just in a huge sphere of bacteria that has been launched through space, when it comes in contact with a human space station it recieves heat through the pipes excetra that it laches onto, this revives the bacteria from stasis and it "chews" through the outside into the inside of the space station where it produces scout organisms "skulks" and then the final mass of bacteria becomes a hive...



This explanation would fit in well with my original back story fixing the discrepancys that your have found because if the Khaara landed on comets or balls of bacteria the TSA would not be certain whether the object that collided with a planet or space station was active or not. Assuming the war is a throughout the known galaxy we would also presume that comits and unidentified projectiles would appear very frequently from unidentified space and alot of them would be completly inocent pieces of rock or maybe Khaara bacteria that is still dormant when discovered by the TSA force...
This would mean that there is no garentee that the unidentified projectile the TSA are sent to identify is even going to be hostile and that if out of every 10,000 unidentified objects they search in a standard earth year only 400 have any Khaara on them at all with only 100 of them being active and hostile. It makes no sence to waste such a huge ammount of equipment on every single search.



Why does it have to be explained? Can it not be left alone and just presume that it is possible... Why does it have to be explained?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere

Dyson sphere a huge energy capure sphere around a sun to harness all of its thermal energy...

+ as canadian says the Khaara are already in space...

It has to be explained b/c it is science fiction, not fantasy. Read the thread dude.


Are you saying that the Kharaa have the resources AND the engineering skills (lol, so far they haven't demonstrated any at all) to build a Dyson sphere? If so, humans should just F4 out of existence. Dyson spheres are pretty impossible to build in any reasonable amount of time (not anywhere in the near 5,000 years), plus there are better ways of collecting energy such as ram-scooping gas giants.



Just because the spores defeated one gravity well, doesn't mean that they can defeat multiple. I just don't see spores having too much reaction mass they can use to adjust trajectory. The best scientific bet is that the aliens use some kind of ground based launch platforms, like the bugs in starship troopers. I'm assuming the TSA has already found where the aliens are doing this from and launched a whole bunch of nukes in their general direction.

about fades fly:

maybe fade has some organ that creates magnetic fields or something? Just an intension

Ok how about like the baracuda swims through water the fade has evolved to be almost lighter than atmosphere allowing it to actualy "swim" through air... This would mean that aslong as there is some prepulsion from the fade it would glide through the air as it does, this could be done by it having some sort of part of its body that sucks air through and fires it out the back (no not its arse... we cannot say the fade flys by farting.) as sort of as you suggested jet propulsion, while doing this it would use its claws as a rudder of sorts.



I was considering more that because they are bacteria forms that have been able to make it into outer space...
Assuming khaara bacteria photosynthasises even getting just a small ammount of the bacteria to orbit around the sun they can use the photosynthesised energy to and harvest dust from space to reproduce... Then from this orbitting "breeding ground" they could eventualy allow pieces to break off which would float through space as exploration and invasion forces.
This would mean the khaara literally leach from the life source of the universe...
(the sun, I know black hole are beguining to be considered the life of the universe but the sun is the well known one...)






Oxymoronic statements?

Actually the bugs in Starship Troopers built Spaceships which they used to travel through the galaxy.

Or are you referring to the movie?

I thought the original idea behind blink was that it was a form of biological teleportation, they "blinked" in and out of our dimension kinda like going back and fourth between xen and black mesa. This is why I hate the new fade blink where they fly around the map, see my topic in the ideas section "bring back insta blink"

lets just wait until test results of LHC are ready (in 2 years? ). Then our knowledge maybe allows more
science based possible explanations of fade blink and phase gates

Due to a blackhole related error this post has been sucked out of exsistance.

Well here is my explanaion of fades and their blinking:

The hive is a huge database which manipulates genetic information of all lifeforms etc... So the hive actually designs the fade to work in the human environment of 1atm and with metallic surfaces covering 99% of the terrain. The fade is actually made out of something like 90% lighter than air gas so it is only very slightly heavier than air. It propels itself by some electromagnetic function.

Now you might think, hey the fade is mostly porous so it must be paper right? Wrong. First of all, it has an exoskeleton which is probably made out of some cool stuff. Second of all, since its mostly gas, there is going to be no hydrostatic shock! The bullets will just go straight through without doing much damage at all. The fade can quickly pick bacteria out of the air to replace the cells it loses and has means of regenerating the lighter than air gas. Even though there is no hydrostatic shock, the fade has one obvious weakness. 00 buckshot. GG.

The fade is not a balloon. I repeat, the fade is not a balloon!

<lameargument>

I'll refrain from the whole "It's just a game" argument here. But I will add that people play the game for an escape. It's a way to get out of your own life and into the lives of the Kharaa / Humans in crisis. At that point, does it really have to be realistic? Do you realize you're only playing a game when something 'unbelievable' happens in the game like teleportation? I honestly can't understand how something like teleportation would remind you you're playing a game, but shooting aliens on a foriegn planet won't.

</lameargument>

With that said, I should add that though nobody has ever seen someone pass through a wormhole, I'd imagine it would look much different than it does in the movies. In all likelihood, seeing through a wormhole would look a bit like having a weak magnifying glass held up to your face. Where the magnification is, it would simply look closer than it would otherwise.

From an outside point of view, the entire length of the wormhole would look completely normal. Someone passing through the wormhole would appear to be moving very fast (and perhaps even a little stretched) even if technically that person was merely walking through. So that seems fairly consistent with what fades do now (aside from the stretching part). Only thing that isn't consistent is how it would look for the fade before jumping.

I don't think phase pads for humans would really work like that. That seems to fit the whole 'teleportation' bit, which is to say all molecules are ripped from you piece by piece and reassembled on the other side. As far as science fiction is concerned, that's about as far away from realistic as you can get. The far more likely scenario and what scientists are currently trying to do with quantum theory is to bend the 4th dimension so that 3-dimensional objects can warp there (according to theory, you always have to use the next-highest dimension. This is relative to bending a newspaper so that both ends meet. It is technically a 2-dimensional object , but you use 3 dimensions to create a gateway that wasn't previously there. Imagine this, but for 3-dimensional objects instead of 2). Despite what common knowledge might suggest, we're far closer to achieving this than the alternative method.

I should add for any discrepancy on Quantum Theory that it *is* the single most accurate theory commonly accepted by scientists today. Even the theory of relativity pales by comparison. It may not make sense, but it is incredibly accurate model of the universe. If I'm not mistaken, they've already managed to 'teleport' an atom from one room to another in a controlled laboratory using fundamental Quantum Theory principles. They're currently working on molecule transportation.