Have you seen anything in NS done better somewhere else (even if it's not a game)? If you think you have, here's the place to post it. This includes everything and anything related to NS - from eyebrows to particle effects, we want to know what you think is on the cutting edge.
Posting only has one requirement - you have to provide pictures, movies, or sounds; any kind of useful media. It is important that you avoid anything but a tiny bit of text when it comes to explaining things, and avoid debates unless you have something aside from words to prove your point.
Full Version: It's been done better in...
The Battlefield 2 Pop-up Menu was easier to use and more intuitive than NS's because every option was immediately selectable. No nested node tree, no complicated navigation, and no trying to remember if "Weld Me" was an Order, Request or Saying.
QUOTE(JazzX @ May 31 2008, 09:42 PM) 
The Battlefield 2 Pop-up Menu was easier to use and more intuitive than NS's because every option was immediately selectable. No nested node tree, no complicated navigation, and no trying to remember if "Weld Me" was an Order, Request or Saying.
Not sure if this helps much, but I could have sworn I saw something similar in Left 4 Dead (L4D) videos:
Edit:
This one has a developer talking, that might be useful or not, in the back ground you see the GUI pop up once, I also notice the blue/green highlights around other players so you know their location, that seems helpful:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/24756.html
2nd Edit:
This one shows it a bit better at 1:03, plus it kinda nice how the different characters talk to each other, like auto taunt idea I remember reading in this part of the forums before:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/23270.html
Yes, it is in Left 4 Dead.
Tremulous. www.tremulous.net is very similar to NS, but it uses the quake engine.
QUOTE(7th.Wrath @ Jun 2 2008, 01:23 AM)
Tremulous. www.tremulous.net is very similar to NS, but it uses the quake engine.
huh? Tremulous is horrible i couldnt stand it.
Idea done better -
Grenade Launcher Path in the hud so you can tell where you grenade will end up (including rebounds off walls)
As for the grenade path thing, nice. But I dunno about a line, what about a sort of.. dot-to-dot effect (doesnt have to be dots, could be circles, etc)? It's the same thing really, but it's like halfway between the traditional crosshair and the grenade path line..
Screens of empire Mod and how they do class selection and customization. Not the greatest UI in the world, but a nice concept. To unlock more skills, you need a higher rank, which is gotten by a higher score. You gain points by killing, reviving, building, etc.
This is how Jailbreak source does their upgrades.
This is how you do NOT want to do the menus. Too many commands, all nested inside weird arbitrary sub menus.
Well I do like how Tremulous reward a marine for doing damage as a way to earn money to buy stuff.
There are too many topics in the NS2 I&S already focusing on specific examples for me to recount (unless I find myself with large amounts of time to waste searching though all of the old topics for good ones to link up), so instead I'll start posting here bit by bit about a specific game or game series and what lessons can be learned from it -- good or bad.
Ok, first I will take a look at a Tom Clancy classic series called Ghost Recon as well as the sequels GRAW and GRAW2 (PC & Xbox 360). There are some great lessons here, both for to do's and to not do's.
The original Ghost Recon gained popularity for being a FPS with emphasis on realism. It's the kind of game where could spend 10 minutes sneaking around prone in the dark grassy woods outside of an enemy encampment, making sure you had sight on all of the bad guys, and then taking them out all at once so they wouldn't even get a shot off at your guys. (because once they spotted you they'd usually kill you almost instantly) The weaponry was realistic, grenade launchers didn't have unrealistic wide-arcs like most games, explosions like frag grenades actually are dangerous at even at a fair distance like they really are, and if you had to reload you throw away the old magazine (none of this magically putting the last rounds back into the magazine BS). Even better the game was built on stealthy and was un-apologetically challenging. Of course it had it's flaws too, namely in being too graphics heavy for the average market at the time, enemy aimbot control was often unfairly accurate, and had an annoying issue with sprites glitching with OpenGL renders (black square in the middle of the screen anybody?). It's also a fundamentally different style of gameplay from NS where patient nerves of steel are highly rewarded and you take much your time crawling around through the brush & weeds. Many of the people blindly rush into combat often to their detriment (especially alien team skulks rushing one by one down a long corridor head-on against marines whole easily gun them down).
Night vision assisted headshot on one of the early missions
The yellow thing in the middle is the threat indicator (usu. where the incomming gunfire is), outdated sure but then again it was first released in 2001 from and even older engine.
Again same kind of thing but with taking fire at us (red dot), the interface is rather simple (by that I mean uncluttered; unlike many games today, Crispy would like it I bet) and although would be much better without the bulky opaque threat indicator. However, this is on old DirectX 8 technology.
This is from a later expansion pack on the XBox, you can see they fixed up the threat indicator graphic so it's not so visually annoying anymore. A case where consumer feedback prompted an aesthetic change.
In GRAW for XBox 360 they really put emphasis on being able to go up flush against some surface for cover and then peek around the corner. I know I already made a topic about Peek & Aim, so I won't elaborate more here, but given that GRAW is far, far faster paced and less stealth than the original it makes a good point of how a minor movement ability can be handy in special situations. And then again you also have the ability to give different types of waypoints and specify a vector (where they should be looking when they arrive) which would be VERY handy for the NS2 commander.
I've posted this before two or three times in this forum, but it is an overly elaborate example of how you can chain waypoints, give waypoints a vector, and even denote different types of actions that are supposed to be done at the waypoint from the "commander's" point of view.
A multiplayer screenshot where you can see another player taking cover an peeking around for a shot
curved HUD, squad status on the left, explosion below... which reminds me, GRAW and GRAW2 have this cool effect of a scrambled HUD when you are close to an explosion's blast, even the "ringing ears" deafness effect when you are too close.
Combat shot vs. and NPC. On the good side it looks solid with good models, textures, and muzzle flash sprite. On the downside there are too many "status sprites" that are cluttering up the shot. The red diamond on the bad guy is annoying just like how a dozen motion tracking sprites is in NS. I know why they are there and how they are helpful, but such distractions should be truly end-game otherwise it just looks... bleh...
So for this series...
Good lessons to keep in mind:
Ok, first I will take a look at a Tom Clancy classic series called Ghost Recon as well as the sequels GRAW and GRAW2 (PC & Xbox 360). There are some great lessons here, both for to do's and to not do's.
The original Ghost Recon gained popularity for being a FPS with emphasis on realism. It's the kind of game where could spend 10 minutes sneaking around prone in the dark grassy woods outside of an enemy encampment, making sure you had sight on all of the bad guys, and then taking them out all at once so they wouldn't even get a shot off at your guys. (because once they spotted you they'd usually kill you almost instantly) The weaponry was realistic, grenade launchers didn't have unrealistic wide-arcs like most games, explosions like frag grenades actually are dangerous at even at a fair distance like they really are, and if you had to reload you throw away the old magazine (none of this magically putting the last rounds back into the magazine BS). Even better the game was built on stealthy and was un-apologetically challenging. Of course it had it's flaws too, namely in being too graphics heavy for the average market at the time, enemy aimbot control was often unfairly accurate, and had an annoying issue with sprites glitching with OpenGL renders (black square in the middle of the screen anybody?). It's also a fundamentally different style of gameplay from NS where patient nerves of steel are highly rewarded and you take much your time crawling around through the brush & weeds. Many of the people blindly rush into combat often to their detriment (especially alien team skulks rushing one by one down a long corridor head-on against marines whole easily gun them down).
Night vision assisted headshot on one of the early missions
The yellow thing in the middle is the threat indicator (usu. where the incomming gunfire is), outdated sure but then again it was first released in 2001 from and even older engine.
Again same kind of thing but with taking fire at us (red dot), the interface is rather simple (by that I mean uncluttered; unlike many games today, Crispy would like it I bet) and although would be much better without the bulky opaque threat indicator. However, this is on old DirectX 8 technology.
This is from a later expansion pack on the XBox, you can see they fixed up the threat indicator graphic so it's not so visually annoying anymore. A case where consumer feedback prompted an aesthetic change.
QUOTE(wikipedia)
Ghost Recon puts the player in charge of a fictional squad of U.S. Special Forces operators from Company D, 1st Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group (5th SFG) stationed at Fort Bragg, NC. Except for the "1st Battalion, 5th SFG" designation, this unit is entirely fictional. They are sometimes referred to as "The Ghosts". Their role is not unlike other real world Special Operations Forces, in that their operations are kept highly classified.
The Ghosts are organized into three fireteams named using the NATO phonetic alphabet: Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie allowing for a distribution of three soldiers per team (the XBox and Playstation 2 versions do not have a Charlie team available). However, since the player can only assign a total of six men in a single player mission, it is not uncommon for one of the fireteams to be disregarded, depending on the preference of the player. The player enjoys limited tactical control on the battlefield environment, and can issue maneuver commands as well as rules of engagement for each of the fireteams through a command map.
In the original game, the soldiers themselves are organized into four different distinct roles (or classes). Every class can carry a primary and a secondary weapon, which are organized into "kits". Even though the primary weapon remains the same in all the kits (being defined by the soldier class — see below), there is a variety of equipment to be chosen as the secondary weapon.
* Rifleman: this class provides the majority of the selection pool of personnel that the player can choose from. He can use a variety of different weapons and equipment (or kits). His primary weapon is the M16 assault rifle. Secondaries include the M203 grenade launcher (which is attached under the barrel of the rifle), the M9 pistol, additional spare magazines, or binoculars (in later versions these were replaced with deployable sensors).
* Support: this role is to provide a high volume of suppressive fire with the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). As the soldier is equipped for short range, he also carries more protective armour. In addition to the machine gun, the support class may also carry the M9 (suppressed), M67 fragmentation grenades (known as "frags") or additional magazines.
* Demolitions ("Demo"): although the name is self-explanatory, this class also serves in the anti-tank role. His primary weapon is the M4 carbine, a compact and fully automatic cousin of the M16 rifle. This soldier can also be equipped with demolition charges (explosives), frags, extra magazines,Claymore mines, or the M136 AT4 light anti-tank weapon.
* Sniper: this class is complete with a camouflaged Ghillie suit, and the U.S. Army's M24 Sniper Weapon System (SWS), also camouflaged. The sniper may be equipped with the M9 sidearm, with optional suppressor, extra magazines or frags. Unlike the other soldiers, the sniper can not rely on sheer firepower to overcome his enemies should he ever get involved in a direct firefight. The sniper relies on cover and concealment, and his ability to move stealthily.Due to the lower armour than the other classes. Although a deadly advantage on maps with longer ranges (such as some of those found in the expansion pack Desert Siege), the sniper is to be used wisely if the player intends on keeping him. Reinforcement from the rest of the team should never be too far behind when deploying the sniper in a combat situation.
As the player progresses through the single player campaign, his soldiers gain Combat Points to add to the skill level and effectiveness of the individual men. There are four basic categories of skill:
* Weapon: affects the accuracy and aiming of the weapon; the reticule will close faster and tighter as more points are added to this skill.
* Stealth: enhances the ability of the soldier to remain undetected by enemy forces and reduces noise generated by the soldier moving.
* Endurance: improves recovery time when taking hits, increases the soldier's ability to survive a wound and reduces the effect of heavy equipment on speed.
* Leadership: for every three points of skill, all other soldiers in the same fireteam gain an extra point to each of their stats.
The player also unlocks "specialists" from NATO or allied countries by completing special mission objectives. The specialists are more experienced than the Ghosts and have more Combat Points, making them an essential addition to the team. They are equipped with weapons from their homeland, offering several additional weapons not available to standard soldier classes. Two of the specialists are armed with the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW), as part of field tests and implementation of the U.S. Army's Land Warrior program. Two of the specialists are female, the only female characters in the game.
The game is played entirely from the first-person perspective. There are no first-person weapon models, just the targeting reticule. A Heads-Up Display (HUD) relays information such as the name of the soldier the player is controlling, his or her fireteam, weapon and ammo inventory, a threat indicator (similar to the heartbeat sensor made popular in Rainbow Six), health status, and a stance indicator (to show whether the character is standing, crouched, or prone).
Bullets will not penetrate most objects, but they will break glass. Explosives or heavy gunfire can be used to destroy wooden doors, and (in the case of explosives) potentially kill anyone within the blast radius on the other side. Depending on the armor on the player's target, it is generally possible to neutralize a threat with one or two well-placed shots.
If a soldier under the player's control is downed in combat, he or she is effectively dead and not available for later missions in the campaign. Earlier Tom Clancy games in the Rainbow Six series offered an incapacitated feature, where members of the player's team could be taken out of action without being killed; they would be recovered after completion of the mission and remain wounded for several additional missions, but this feature is not present in Ghost Recon. A wounded soldier that survives the mission will remain wounded until a mission in which he did not participate has been completed, though.
Ghost Recon has both single player and multiplayer modes of play. Up to 36 players are supported in the PC version's multiplayer over an internet (TCP/IP) connection or LAN.
Hardware requirements of Ghost Recon (original)
* Windows 2000/XP
* Pentium II 450 MHz processor
* 128 MB of RAM
* DirectX 8.0 or higher (included on CD) (must have compatible sound card)
* 16 MB VRAM 3D graphics card compatible with DirectX 8.0
* 2 GB hard drive space
* 4X CD-ROM
* Internet/network with TCP/IP connection at 28.8 kbit/s
First released, on PC, in the USA, on November 13, 2001
The Ghosts are organized into three fireteams named using the NATO phonetic alphabet: Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie allowing for a distribution of three soldiers per team (the XBox and Playstation 2 versions do not have a Charlie team available). However, since the player can only assign a total of six men in a single player mission, it is not uncommon for one of the fireteams to be disregarded, depending on the preference of the player. The player enjoys limited tactical control on the battlefield environment, and can issue maneuver commands as well as rules of engagement for each of the fireteams through a command map.
In the original game, the soldiers themselves are organized into four different distinct roles (or classes). Every class can carry a primary and a secondary weapon, which are organized into "kits". Even though the primary weapon remains the same in all the kits (being defined by the soldier class — see below), there is a variety of equipment to be chosen as the secondary weapon.
* Rifleman: this class provides the majority of the selection pool of personnel that the player can choose from. He can use a variety of different weapons and equipment (or kits). His primary weapon is the M16 assault rifle. Secondaries include the M203 grenade launcher (which is attached under the barrel of the rifle), the M9 pistol, additional spare magazines, or binoculars (in later versions these were replaced with deployable sensors).
* Support: this role is to provide a high volume of suppressive fire with the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). As the soldier is equipped for short range, he also carries more protective armour. In addition to the machine gun, the support class may also carry the M9 (suppressed), M67 fragmentation grenades (known as "frags") or additional magazines.
* Demolitions ("Demo"): although the name is self-explanatory, this class also serves in the anti-tank role. His primary weapon is the M4 carbine, a compact and fully automatic cousin of the M16 rifle. This soldier can also be equipped with demolition charges (explosives), frags, extra magazines,Claymore mines, or the M136 AT4 light anti-tank weapon.
* Sniper: this class is complete with a camouflaged Ghillie suit, and the U.S. Army's M24 Sniper Weapon System (SWS), also camouflaged. The sniper may be equipped with the M9 sidearm, with optional suppressor, extra magazines or frags. Unlike the other soldiers, the sniper can not rely on sheer firepower to overcome his enemies should he ever get involved in a direct firefight. The sniper relies on cover and concealment, and his ability to move stealthily.Due to the lower armour than the other classes. Although a deadly advantage on maps with longer ranges (such as some of those found in the expansion pack Desert Siege), the sniper is to be used wisely if the player intends on keeping him. Reinforcement from the rest of the team should never be too far behind when deploying the sniper in a combat situation.
As the player progresses through the single player campaign, his soldiers gain Combat Points to add to the skill level and effectiveness of the individual men. There are four basic categories of skill:
* Weapon: affects the accuracy and aiming of the weapon; the reticule will close faster and tighter as more points are added to this skill.
* Stealth: enhances the ability of the soldier to remain undetected by enemy forces and reduces noise generated by the soldier moving.
* Endurance: improves recovery time when taking hits, increases the soldier's ability to survive a wound and reduces the effect of heavy equipment on speed.
* Leadership: for every three points of skill, all other soldiers in the same fireteam gain an extra point to each of their stats.
The player also unlocks "specialists" from NATO or allied countries by completing special mission objectives. The specialists are more experienced than the Ghosts and have more Combat Points, making them an essential addition to the team. They are equipped with weapons from their homeland, offering several additional weapons not available to standard soldier classes. Two of the specialists are armed with the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW), as part of field tests and implementation of the U.S. Army's Land Warrior program. Two of the specialists are female, the only female characters in the game.
The game is played entirely from the first-person perspective. There are no first-person weapon models, just the targeting reticule. A Heads-Up Display (HUD) relays information such as the name of the soldier the player is controlling, his or her fireteam, weapon and ammo inventory, a threat indicator (similar to the heartbeat sensor made popular in Rainbow Six), health status, and a stance indicator (to show whether the character is standing, crouched, or prone).
Bullets will not penetrate most objects, but they will break glass. Explosives or heavy gunfire can be used to destroy wooden doors, and (in the case of explosives) potentially kill anyone within the blast radius on the other side. Depending on the armor on the player's target, it is generally possible to neutralize a threat with one or two well-placed shots.
If a soldier under the player's control is downed in combat, he or she is effectively dead and not available for later missions in the campaign. Earlier Tom Clancy games in the Rainbow Six series offered an incapacitated feature, where members of the player's team could be taken out of action without being killed; they would be recovered after completion of the mission and remain wounded for several additional missions, but this feature is not present in Ghost Recon. A wounded soldier that survives the mission will remain wounded until a mission in which he did not participate has been completed, though.
Ghost Recon has both single player and multiplayer modes of play. Up to 36 players are supported in the PC version's multiplayer over an internet (TCP/IP) connection or LAN.
Hardware requirements of Ghost Recon (original)
* Windows 2000/XP
* Pentium II 450 MHz processor
* 128 MB of RAM
* DirectX 8.0 or higher (included on CD) (must have compatible sound card)
* 16 MB VRAM 3D graphics card compatible with DirectX 8.0
* 2 GB hard drive space
* 4X CD-ROM
* Internet/network with TCP/IP connection at 28.8 kbit/s
First released, on PC, in the USA, on November 13, 2001
In GRAW for XBox 360 they really put emphasis on being able to go up flush against some surface for cover and then peek around the corner. I know I already made a topic about Peek & Aim, so I won't elaborate more here, but given that GRAW is far, far faster paced and less stealth than the original it makes a good point of how a minor movement ability can be handy in special situations. And then again you also have the ability to give different types of waypoints and specify a vector (where they should be looking when they arrive) which would be VERY handy for the NS2 commander.
I've posted this before two or three times in this forum, but it is an overly elaborate example of how you can chain waypoints, give waypoints a vector, and even denote different types of actions that are supposed to be done at the waypoint from the "commander's" point of view.
A multiplayer screenshot where you can see another player taking cover an peeking around for a shot
curved HUD, squad status on the left, explosion below... which reminds me, GRAW and GRAW2 have this cool effect of a scrambled HUD when you are close to an explosion's blast, even the "ringing ears" deafness effect when you are too close.
Combat shot vs. and NPC. On the good side it looks solid with good models, textures, and muzzle flash sprite. On the downside there are too many "status sprites" that are cluttering up the shot. The red diamond on the bad guy is annoying just like how a dozen motion tracking sprites is in NS. I know why they are there and how they are helpful, but such distractions should be truly end-game otherwise it just looks... bleh...
So for this series...
Good lessons to keep in mind:
- Rewards for patience
- Can declare a combat mode: recon (sneaking around, scouting, etc.) or assault (guns blazzing, charge in and light em' up)
- Waypoint order types: move/go, hold/stop, suppress
- Grenades are to be feared (and limited in ammunition)
- The value of coverfire, and maps that create places to take cover
- The value of stealth, even in a chaotic, heated firefight (sneak around the other way and flank them)
- Greatly rewarding creative tactics (setting up clever ambushes, suppressing fire up front while double flanking with hidden snipers, etc)
- Burst fire rewards increased accuracy as opposed to full-tilt automatic spray n' pray
- Paying attention to shadows to hide your presence (more of a mapping thing, but still a good design lesson)
- Sprinting option (limited "stamina" like the jetpack's fuel in NS, plus you can't fire while sprinting)
- Over taxing the client hardware's resources (CPU, RAM, GPU) for what you'd find on your game's average market (no hidden costs please)
- Source code sloppiness when integrating with 3D rendering
- Forcing the gameplay to a mostly 2D planar type of ground combat
- Overpowering weapons until they are insta-kill
- Going prone (unless it's for crawling through a vent)
- Buggy physics code that causes players to get stuck on stairs or tanks to roll around the map (yes, rolling flipping tanks in some multiplayer custom GRAW & GRAW2 maps on the PC versions, oh and)
- Buggy netcode that infuriates players with extra lag and glitches for kills
- Crappy, horrible, user unfriendly level editors (pfeh!)
- Sniper weapons: tightening up aim with ironsights fits the flavor of your grity hardcore marine style, whereas electronic aim-assist 500x zoom does not, IMHO
I always liked the ack system in Tribes 2. It was the only ack system I ever used because it was so well implemented, and few other games have even noticed or cared to copy it. In T2, all acks were used from the "V"oice command. From there, you were presented with a list of different saying categories, each with it's own letter. For the most part, these were intuitive. For example, the Need acks were under N, and so forth. When you pressed the first letter, you got another list which contained all the acks you could actually say, and each of these also had it's own intuitive letter. After you selected an ack in this fashion, it would be played with a voice clip (and if it was a team ack, the entire team would hear it). The good thing about this system is that every ack in the game could be shown as a short three letter string. These were easy to remember, and all you had to do is type of three diffrent letter keys (the first always being V) which was easy to do even if you were fighting someone.
Probably the only other game which attempted to use this ack system that I can remember was Allegence, which was also banished to the pits of obscurity.
Probably the only other game which attempted to use this ack system that I can remember was Allegence, which was also banished to the pits of obscurity.
This video exposits several elements of a favorite game of mine (Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast) that were done objectively better than NS.
The first you'll see is the server browser, which is reminiscent of Quake, with a friends search feature (although this is obsolete with Steam Friends now).
The second is the system of melee combat which, while in the video handling sword style attacks instead of claw style, is combo-oriented and reactive to the player's movement, rather than requiring a new key for every different swing.
It also shows different attack stances and methods of attack and defense, including rolling (functions by tapping duck while moving) and it might show force jump as well later on, which functioned by holding down the jump key, draining "mana" and acting as a sort of levitation.
The major points I'm bringing up here are:
1) That the game felt very polished, and as you'll note by the color emphasis above, the user interface was extremely responsive and clean - a problem NS has suffered with since the advent of non-teleporting Blink.
2) The there were many options for action at a given time, and all of them were easily accessible with no prior scripting. In JK2, it is as easy to levitate as it is to perform a lunge as it is to duck and roll out of the way, as it is to trip another player (force enabled only, not shown in video) - the only question is what the situation calls for.
3) That the game's movement system (google for examples if interested) functioned with far more than simple bunnyhop and airspeed control, ranging from super jumps to rolling to acrobatics like short wall runs and aerial kicks that would knock over other players, as well as telekinesis (which I'm not advocating in NS2) and special attacks like backstab, which functioned by moving back and into another player, and simply pressing attack.
The central theme is a polished movement system with many good options all available with as little finger gymnastics as possible. The game's user interface was reminiscent of a mac. I never found the need to script in that game because it was so clean.
The first you'll see is the server browser, which is reminiscent of Quake, with a friends search feature (although this is obsolete with Steam Friends now).
The second is the system of melee combat which, while in the video handling sword style attacks instead of claw style, is combo-oriented and reactive to the player's movement, rather than requiring a new key for every different swing.
It also shows different attack stances and methods of attack and defense, including rolling (functions by tapping duck while moving) and it might show force jump as well later on, which functioned by holding down the jump key, draining "mana" and acting as a sort of levitation.
The major points I'm bringing up here are:
1) That the game felt very polished, and as you'll note by the color emphasis above, the user interface was extremely responsive and clean - a problem NS has suffered with since the advent of non-teleporting Blink.
2) The there were many options for action at a given time, and all of them were easily accessible with no prior scripting. In JK2, it is as easy to levitate as it is to perform a lunge as it is to duck and roll out of the way, as it is to trip another player (force enabled only, not shown in video) - the only question is what the situation calls for.
3) That the game's movement system (google for examples if interested) functioned with far more than simple bunnyhop and airspeed control, ranging from super jumps to rolling to acrobatics like short wall runs and aerial kicks that would knock over other players, as well as telekinesis (which I'm not advocating in NS2) and special attacks like backstab, which functioned by moving back and into another player, and simply pressing attack.
The central theme is a polished movement system with many good options all available with as little finger gymnastics as possible. The game's user interface was reminiscent of a mac. I never found the need to script in that game because it was so clean.
QUOTE(schkorpio @ Jun 1 2008, 10:49 AM)
Grenade Launcher Path in the hud so you can tell where you grenade will end up (including rebounds off walls)
doesn't that take away some of the skill involved with using a grenade launcher? i can understand it for a single player game where you might use a grenade launcher once or twice and so don't really practice or learn it, but it doesn't seem appropriate for an online (competitive) multiplayer game.QUOTE(the_x5 @ Jun 5 2008, 01:23 PM)
Question:
Do you want me to link all of those related topics here? (talking to Comprox primarily here)
Do you want me to link all of those related topics here? (talking to Comprox primarily here)
If not, I'm adding my topic at least: all of the ranking system implemented in FPS suck and you definitely should go for something akin to a RTS ranking system (Myth II in particular).
Screenshot of the main lobby:
Notice that ranks are portrayed next to each one's name
Screenshot of the match lobby (in which game settings, teams, etc. are fixed):
These pictures don't actually make plain how the ranking system worked, because it can only be explained in words (cf. link to topic above). However, you can see how well and neatly everything was organized.
Also in the topic flatrick linked you will find about 100 reasons why you should NOT go with his idea.
This topic explains the best system for ranking and/or matchmaking that these forums have seen. A fair amount of time was devoted by several members of the community, especially Sarisel and Firewater. This thread contains a compilation of the resulting ideas:
http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=104138
http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=104138
I've been meaning to post ever since this topic went up, but after seeing all the new menu suggestions I'm glad I waited to provide a counter point. KEEP THE RADIAL MENU. Or more specifically, evolve it to mouse gestures.
That's pretty much how I use them now. Just make sure it could be bound to multiple key presses (ie: shift + right mouse) so it doesn't interfere with normal gameplay and still show the transparent menu so they're easy to learn.
Also, give the comm a radial menu. One of my favorite interfaces of all time comes from the game Warzone 2100[wikipedia.org] which is now open source. I couldn't find any good pics so I just recorded my own quick demo.
Obviously you need hotkeys for competitive players, but it's a very good mouse menu.
That's pretty much how I use them now. Just make sure it could be bound to multiple key presses (ie: shift + right mouse) so it doesn't interfere with normal gameplay and still show the transparent menu so they're easy to learn.
Also, give the comm a radial menu. One of my favorite interfaces of all time comes from the game Warzone 2100[wikipedia.org] which is now open source. I couldn't find any good pics so I just recorded my own quick demo.
Obviously you need hotkeys for competitive players, but it's a very good mouse menu.
Maybe I'm just blind, but could you explain what makes this menu so much better? I'm not sure I get how it works from the video.
The radial menu for BF2 is awesome and should be modeled after. My only gripe is you need multiple buttons for the submenus, but that's OK. Layering everything into one menu is NOT a good idea. However, don't cram too many things into the menu or else it will be hard to quickly flick and hit the button you want.
I like locally's idea about evolving to gestures. It's not that the current menu is bad, but it confuses players the first time they see it. Also, quicker activation would help, so you don't have to wait for the next submenu to pop up. Eventually, yes, it would be like a gesture. Of course, gesture recognition is kinda abysmal for now, so I wouldn't invest too heavily in it.
There must be a balance of ease of use, both in speed and accuracy versus being accessible to learning players.
The radial menu for BF2 is awesome and should be modeled after. My only gripe is you need multiple buttons for the submenus, but that's OK. Layering everything into one menu is NOT a good idea. However, don't cram too many things into the menu or else it will be hard to quickly flick and hit the button you want.
I like locally's idea about evolving to gestures. It's not that the current menu is bad, but it confuses players the first time they see it. Also, quicker activation would help, so you don't have to wait for the next submenu to pop up. Eventually, yes, it would be like a gesture. Of course, gesture recognition is kinda abysmal for now, so I wouldn't invest too heavily in it.
There must be a balance of ease of use, both in speed and accuracy versus being accessible to learning players.
If you want mouse gestures consider a system like this:
QUOTE(Radix @ Jun 10 2008, 12:27 PM)
If you want mouse gestures consider a system like this:
<Okami>
<Okami>
I was thinking something pretty different. I don't really want the mouse gestures to stand alone(at least as default). I want the menu to show up similar to now, just that it's transparent and defaults to a key combo to activate(combo being two key ie shift + right mouse) so it doesn't have to take up the right mouse button. I prefer that style over numberical chat menus. I find them less intuitive.
As for the Warzone menu, it's very good at hiding information until you need it. Each of the buttons around the center is a menu and when you ask for a menu, like the research menu(0:45), it provides an overview of all your research facilities at the bottom which what they're researching and the vertical left bar has possible research technologies. Clicking on one part of the research menu will select a research facility while clicking on the bottom part will center that facility.
Similarly the build menu(0:05) shows available builders, their current actions, and what can be built.
QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 10 2008, 04:48 PM)
I was thinking something pretty different. I don't really want the mouse gestures to stand alone(at least as default). I want the menu to show up similar to now, just that it's transparent and defaults to a key combo to activate(combo being two key ie shift + right mouse) so it doesn't have to take up the right mouse button. I prefer that style over numberical chat menus. I find them less intuitive.
Yay for Okami!
I'm not 100% on what you mean for your new menu idea. I think you mean that the menu will only fully pop up if you do a key combo, but using right-click you can do a gesture that imitates going through the menu and it's quicker? If so, I would advise that there be ghost boxes displayed so you know how far to move in what direction, unless they use pure gesture recognition.
i dont think we need a radial menu or gesture - we need dynamic menus.
e.g. if you aren't the right class, or don't have the weapon or ability, the menu doesn't even display that function.
its the best way because you can only see the things you have/can do, and not 20 other things you don't have - no clutter.
for example the ns1 alien menu has about 40 options in it maybe? even at the beginning of the game. When really all there should be at the start of the game, because you are a skulk and have 25 res, there should only be an options to turn into gorge, and nothing else, until you either save another 5 res and can go lerk, or someone drops an MC and you can then choose which of these abilites you want. still only limiting the number of menus to 3.
obviously if your anything but a gorge you wouldn't have a build menu.
same kind of stuff would go for marines
also the comm menu and abilities should be entirely seperate menus.
e.g. if you aren't the right class, or don't have the weapon or ability, the menu doesn't even display that function.
its the best way because you can only see the things you have/can do, and not 20 other things you don't have - no clutter.
for example the ns1 alien menu has about 40 options in it maybe? even at the beginning of the game. When really all there should be at the start of the game, because you are a skulk and have 25 res, there should only be an options to turn into gorge, and nothing else, until you either save another 5 res and can go lerk, or someone drops an MC and you can then choose which of these abilites you want. still only limiting the number of menus to 3.
obviously if your anything but a gorge you wouldn't have a build menu.
same kind of stuff would go for marines
also the comm menu and abilities should be entirely seperate menus.
Weapon pickup similar to Halo or Call of Duty 4.
Discussed a little at:
http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=104375
Basically, instead of automatically picking a new weapon up, allow players to set an option that they have to hold down a button (use key for example) for a few seconds to pick up a different weapon.
However, still keep the primary, secondary, melee, accessory weapon system in place. Unless there's a determent implemented for carrying 3 HMGs and no pistol or knife.
Don't have screenshots, will find/make some later.
Discussed a little at:
http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=104375
Basically, instead of automatically picking a new weapon up, allow players to set an option that they have to hold down a button (use key for example) for a few seconds to pick up a different weapon.
However, still keep the primary, secondary, melee, accessory weapon system in place. Unless there's a determent implemented for carrying 3 HMGs and no pistol or knife.
Don't have screenshots, will find/make some later.
If skulks are going to be similar to the NS1 skulk (or a scout unit for that matter) maybe you should look at the Warsow movement system.
It implements an easy bhop system from Painkiller, where you can just hold forward with full air control and gain speed slowly. On the other hand you can still left/right circle-strafe bhop and also strafejump to gain speed faster for more advanced players. To solve the "jump script" or "mouse wheel" bhopping silliness they implemented a system where you hold jump before you land each jump and it automatically jumps as soon as you land.
It has a fairly complex, but easy to learn, dash system also. You can dash to gain speed at first to begin a hop, but for relevant for NS, you can dash of a wall on-the-run. This is a great system and I think you should investigate it.
glhf.
It implements an easy bhop system from Painkiller, where you can just hold forward with full air control and gain speed slowly. On the other hand you can still left/right circle-strafe bhop and also strafejump to gain speed faster for more advanced players. To solve the "jump script" or "mouse wheel" bhopping silliness they implemented a system where you hold jump before you land each jump and it automatically jumps as soon as you land.
It has a fairly complex, but easy to learn, dash system also. You can dash to gain speed at first to begin a hop, but for relevant for NS, you can dash of a wall on-the-run. This is a great system and I think you should investigate it.
glhf.
The NS1 commander menu is the best I've seen so far.
Q W E R
A S D F
Z X C V
Better than the SC system by far. (Anyone familiar with having to reach for O to perform Siege MOde and hitting P instead? What about hitting o or [ instead of P for probe production? Sucks very much)
Q W E R
A S D F
Z X C V
Better than the SC system by far. (Anyone familiar with having to reach for O to perform Siege MOde and hitting P instead? What about hitting o or [ instead of P for probe production? Sucks very much)
QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Jun 24 2008, 12:00 PM)
The NS1 commander menu is the best I've seen so far.
Q W E R
A S D F
Z X C V
Better than the SC system by far. (Anyone familiar with having to reach for O to perform Siege MOde and hitting P instead? What about hitting o or [ instead of P for probe production? Sucks very much)
Q W E R
A S D F
Z X C V
Better than the SC system by far. (Anyone familiar with having to reach for O to perform Siege MOde and hitting P instead? What about hitting o or [ instead of P for probe production? Sucks very much)
I second the notion that the command keys are excellent. Whatever you do to the mouse interface please keep the command key interface the same.
Warsow.
QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 24 2008, 04:33 PM)
I second the notion that the command keys are excellent. Whatever you do to the mouse interface please keep the command key interface the same.
While I love the key system as it is, also allow for customization of the keys instead of having to hack the config file.
I believe it was Quake that also had the queued up jumps.
Death Notices/Screens.
TF2 has a fun system of letting you know who killed you and a fun comment about how well you did that life. Maybe not super applicable.
CoD4 (at least in single player) tells you why you died and how to avoid it next time. For example, if you die from a grenade, it will give a friendly reminder about the grenade indicator and how to throw back grenades so you won't die next time. They also have fun and interesting quotes.
What would be nice for NS2 is to have contextual death screens/sequences which can clue people in to how and why they died, and if there's anything they can do about it. Or, even just giving tips about gameplay features. Die by electrification? Let them know that blue stuff is not Kool-Aid on a building. There was umbra protecting that Fade that just got you? Let them know Umbra blocks your bullets. Perhaps also mix it up and just give general tips, such as building proximity for turrets or what a chamber/upgrade does, or how using E on the Hive lets you teleport to another one.
This can help people learn from their mistakes, and provide a way to teach in-game without a tutorial.
TF2 has a fun system of letting you know who killed you and a fun comment about how well you did that life. Maybe not super applicable.
CoD4 (at least in single player) tells you why you died and how to avoid it next time. For example, if you die from a grenade, it will give a friendly reminder about the grenade indicator and how to throw back grenades so you won't die next time. They also have fun and interesting quotes.
What would be nice for NS2 is to have contextual death screens/sequences which can clue people in to how and why they died, and if there's anything they can do about it. Or, even just giving tips about gameplay features. Die by electrification? Let them know that blue stuff is not Kool-Aid on a building. There was umbra protecting that Fade that just got you? Let them know Umbra blocks your bullets. Perhaps also mix it up and just give general tips, such as building proximity for turrets or what a chamber/upgrade does, or how using E on the Hive lets you teleport to another one.
This can help people learn from their mistakes, and provide a way to teach in-game without a tutorial.
QUOTE(spellman23 @ Jun 24 2008, 07:11 PM)
Death Notices/Screens.
TF2 has a fun system of letting you know who killed you and a fun comment about how well you did that life. Maybe not super applicable.
CoD4 (at least in single player) tells you why you died and how to avoid it next time. For example, if you die from a grenade, it will give a friendly reminder about the grenade indicator and how to throw back grenades so you won't die next time. They also have fun and interesting quotes.
What would be nice for NS2 is to have contextual death screens/sequences which can clue people in to how and why they died, and if there's anything they can do about it. Or, even just giving tips about gameplay features. Die by electrification? Let them know that blue stuff is not Kool-Aid on a building. There was umbra protecting that Fade that just got you? Let them know Umbra blocks your bullets. Perhaps also mix it up and just give general tips, such as building proximity for turrets or what a chamber/upgrade does, or how using E on the Hive lets you teleport to another one.
This can help people learn from their mistakes, and provide a way to teach in-game without a tutorial.
I think it would be useful to show which weapon/enemy you died to, moreso on the Alien side. Maybe have a picture of the 'class' and a picture of the 'weapon' side by side, with descriptions of each underneath.TF2 has a fun system of letting you know who killed you and a fun comment about how well you did that life. Maybe not super applicable.
CoD4 (at least in single player) tells you why you died and how to avoid it next time. For example, if you die from a grenade, it will give a friendly reminder about the grenade indicator and how to throw back grenades so you won't die next time. They also have fun and interesting quotes.
What would be nice for NS2 is to have contextual death screens/sequences which can clue people in to how and why they died, and if there's anything they can do about it. Or, even just giving tips about gameplay features. Die by electrification? Let them know that blue stuff is not Kool-Aid on a building. There was umbra protecting that Fade that just got you? Let them know Umbra blocks your bullets. Perhaps also mix it up and just give general tips, such as building proximity for turrets or what a chamber/upgrade does, or how using E on the Hive lets you teleport to another one.
This can help people learn from their mistakes, and provide a way to teach in-game without a tutorial.
E.g.
CODE
You were killed by $killer_playername
<pic of $killer_class> <pic of $killer_attack>
$killer _class_summary $killer _attack_summary
Abilities:
$killer_class_abilities
Weaknesses:
$killer_class_weaknesses
<pic of $killer_class> <pic of $killer_attack>
$killer _class_summary $killer _attack_summary
Abilities:
$killer_class_abilities
Weaknesses:
$killer_class_weaknesses
E.g.
QUOTE
You were killed by Flayra
<---------><picture of Lerk> <--------------------------------------------------> <Spore icon> <------------>
Lerks are mobile, airborne units that are <------------------------> Spores inflict continual damage to the health and armour
most effective when used in support roles. <---------------------> within their area of effect. Spores will remain in an area for a short time.
Abilities:
Lerks can use gas Spores to scatter the enemy, an Umbra cloud to soften projectile damage and Primal Scream to whip the Aliens into a frenzy.
Weaknesses:
Lerks are very vulnerable to concentrated fire from Shotguns and Heavy Machineguns, especially when on the ground or when stationary.
<---------><picture of Lerk> <--------------------------------------------------> <Spore icon> <------------>
Lerks are mobile, airborne units that are <------------------------> Spores inflict continual damage to the health and armour
most effective when used in support roles. <---------------------> within their area of effect. Spores will remain in an area for a short time.
Abilities:
Lerks can use gas Spores to scatter the enemy, an Umbra cloud to soften projectile damage and Primal Scream to whip the Aliens into a frenzy.
Weaknesses:
Lerks are very vulnerable to concentrated fire from Shotguns and Heavy Machineguns, especially when on the ground or when stationary.
You could also have tips for your own class if you died within a short time of evolving or picking up a new weapon.
E.g. If you died within 30 seconds of evolving to a particular Alien class, you are shown the 'primer' page for the class you died prematurely as. This is so you learn more about the class even if you didn't get much time to practise at it. Hopefully that wouldn't put players off trying out that class again now they have a bit more knowledge about its strengths and weaknesses.
---
I don't have any screenshots of a game that takes this exact approach, but Advance Wars: Days of Ruin for the DS (a.k.a. Dark Conflict in other territories) has a more condensed way of showing this information:
- The large picture and summary give the player a brief overview of the unit
- The red exclamation mark shows icons of the enemy units that the unit (a Tank, in this example) is very vulnerable to.
- The amber exclamation mark shows icons of the enemy units that this unit is vulnerable to
- The right-hand side of the screen shows upwards and downwards arrows depending on how effective the unit's weaponry is against enemy units.
---
Note:
These screens would be optional, but ON by default.
QUOTE(spellman23 @ Jun 24 2008, 08:11 PM)
Death Notices/Screens.
What would be nice for NS2 is to have contextual death screens/sequences which can clue people in to how and why they died, and if there's anything they can do about it. Or, even just giving tips about gameplay features.
What would be nice for NS2 is to have contextual death screens/sequences which can clue people in to how and why they died, and if there's anything they can do about it. Or, even just giving tips about gameplay features.
I can already see it:
You died to an Onos, 3 minutes into the game. EJECT! EJECT! EJECT!
Savage and Savage 2. They both did very decent things with FPS/RTS commander hybridization. (Savage 2 suffers from some TRULY crappy netcode though...) Simple is good, and you CAN let the FPS people place buildings, sometimes. Maybe give them turrets and resource nodes? Commander hands you a packed turret, and you can place it on the ground, and weld it up. Or the commander can just place them himself.
Crysis had a nice menu system too, you hold the button, then use WASD or the mouse to select what you want, and let up on the button. Say, 3-4 icons for skills, 1 for evolves, and one for selecting stuff to build if you are a gorge.
Crysis had a nice menu system too, you hold the button, then use WASD or the mouse to select what you want, and let up on the button. Say, 3-4 icons for skills, 1 for evolves, and one for selecting stuff to build if you are a gorge.
Oh yeah, I forgot.
Savage 2: each turret has a certain radius around it, and you cannot build another of the same type within that radius, so turret spamming is impossible. The most turrets you see in one area are one light, fast, and another heavier turret.
So you can spam turrets, you just need to build a few expander buildings to do it, and those are not very cheap. To to translate this to NS2, you would need to build a turret controller, and each turret would have a 15-20 foot radius area around it where you could not place another turret.
Maybe have 2 types of turret, one small and fast, and another much more expensive, but placeable near the smaller turret. Like a machine gun turret and a shotgun turret (maybe switch shottie turrets between slugs and pellets?)
The alien analog.... have gorges place goo-makers on the floor to make growth, and the turrets need to be built in, or touching the goo? Then they can build the turret, and if they upgrade that to a type 2 alien turret, they can place another type 1 turret.
Savage 2: each turret has a certain radius around it, and you cannot build another of the same type within that radius, so turret spamming is impossible. The most turrets you see in one area are one light, fast, and another heavier turret.
So you can spam turrets, you just need to build a few expander buildings to do it, and those are not very cheap. To to translate this to NS2, you would need to build a turret controller, and each turret would have a 15-20 foot radius area around it where you could not place another turret.
Maybe have 2 types of turret, one small and fast, and another much more expensive, but placeable near the smaller turret. Like a machine gun turret and a shotgun turret (maybe switch shottie turrets between slugs and pellets?)
The alien analog.... have gorges place goo-makers on the floor to make growth, and the turrets need to be built in, or touching the goo? Then they can build the turret, and if they upgrade that to a type 2 alien turret, they can place another type 1 turret.
You should attach some pictures or videos of the relevant things in your post(s) EvilSmoo.
QUOTE(EvilSmoo @ Aug 6 2008, 05:28 AM)
Savage 2: each turret has a certain radius around it, and you cannot build another of the same type within that radius, so turret spamming is impossible. The most turrets you see in one area are one light, fast, and another heavier turret.
So you can spam turrets, you just need to build a few expander buildings to do it, and those are not very cheap. To to translate this to NS2, you would need to build a turret controller, and each turret would have a 15-20 foot radius area around it where you could not place another turret.
So you can spam turrets, you just need to build a few expander buildings to do it, and those are not very cheap. To to translate this to NS2, you would need to build a turret controller, and each turret would have a 15-20 foot radius area around it where you could not place another turret.
NS1 had a similar system as well, mostly to allow people to get around the buildings but also to prevent turret spam. OCs did not have this system, but instead you could only build so many in a certain radius.
I'm not sure what you're asking for from the Crysis system. I believe you're referring to the system where you chose Armor/Speed/Strength/Cloak, correct? I'm not sure how that would work in NS since there's so many choices (upgrades, evolving, buildings, etc), unless you want to switch weapons using this system. Or, are you suggesting that the menu expand like it is now, but you can use WASD keys to navigate it?
QUOTE(spellman23 @ Aug 12 2008, 08:23 AM)
I'm not sure what you're asking for from the Crysis system. I believe you're referring to the system where you chose Armor/Speed/Strength/Cloak, correct?
Yeah, pretty much.
QUOTE
I'm not sure how that would work in NS since there's so many choices (upgrades, evolving, buildings, etc), unless you want to switch weapons using this system. Or, are you suggesting that the menu expand like it is now, but you can use WASD keys to navigate it?
More of an expanding trees idea. Tabula Rasa does it well too, with the context menu. There is room for 6 individual choice-icons. When you indicate one of the icons by moving the mouse in that direction, it would open up a few more icons for each individual choice.
So one for evolve, when you move over it, it displays what you can afford, with unavailables greyed out. If you are gorge, the build icon would not be greyed out, and you could select what to build.
A combination of the control feel of Crysis with the expanding rows of icons from TR might do a pretty good job of offering good, easy controls, while making it fast to switch back out if you got attacked while looking at your menus. It could also offer marines an easy way to switch ammo types, or do voice commands, or probably lots of other things. If aliens cannot talk, you could have a row of pheromone choices too, kind of like voice commands, but in character, and you could use the reticle to point a teammate at another vent, for instance, so he would know to use that to flank while you attacked from another direction.
Expandability would be a bonus too.
QUOTE(EvilSmoo @ Aug 15 2008, 03:33 PM)
More of an expanding trees idea. Tabula Rasa does it well too, with the context menu. There is room for 6 individual choice-icons. When you indicate one of the icons by moving the mouse in that direction, it would open up a few more icons for each individual choice.
So one for evolve, when you move over it, it displays what you can afford, with unavailables greyed out. If you are gorge, the build icon would not be greyed out, and you could select what to build.
A combination of the control feel of Crysis with the expanding rows of icons from TR might do a pretty good job of offering good, easy controls, while making it fast to switch back out if you got attacked while looking at your menus. It could also offer marines an easy way to switch ammo types, or do voice commands, or probably lots of other things. If aliens cannot talk, you could have a row of pheromone choices too, kind of like voice commands, but in character, and you could use the reticle to point a teammate at another vent, for instance, so he would know to use that to flank while you attacked from another direction.
Expandability would be a bonus too.
So one for evolve, when you move over it, it displays what you can afford, with unavailables greyed out. If you are gorge, the build icon would not be greyed out, and you could select what to build.
A combination of the control feel of Crysis with the expanding rows of icons from TR might do a pretty good job of offering good, easy controls, while making it fast to switch back out if you got attacked while looking at your menus. It could also offer marines an easy way to switch ammo types, or do voice commands, or probably lots of other things. If aliens cannot talk, you could have a row of pheromone choices too, kind of like voice commands, but in character, and you could use the reticle to point a teammate at another vent, for instance, so he would know to use that to flank while you attacked from another direction.
Expandability would be a bonus too.
I'm not quite sure what you're adding to the current menu system. It also expands similarly to what you're proposing, although you have to navigate it with more strict mouse movements than shoving the mouse like in Crysis or Battlefield. Maybe you're talking about a slightly more constrained or contextual menu system, such as only if you're Gorge do you see the build options, and then the ones that are too expensive are grayed out until you have enough res and are unelectable.
I'm sure expandability to the menu will be there, considering how open the devs have been so far (or at least telling us how open they are, we don't have much code in our own grubby hands yet) to modifying almost every aspect of the game.
Skip ahead a little bit in this movie. It shows the potential of "commanding". The difference is the commander doesn't have near perfect control over his marines, but the rest is pretty much the same.
Pro Korean Starcraft player showcasing commanding "potential".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1G407NUNU8
How do I embed the movie?
Pro Korean Starcraft player showcasing commanding "potential".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1G407NUNU8
How do I embed the movie?
Please do not make the commander micro, or at the least don't hinge commanding on micro ability.
Besides, the entire concept of not controlling your units in the first place tends to break down how much micro is possible, unless you're suggesting we have tons of NPC doodads for the commander to micro. If you are suggesting this, what is the appropriate counter by Aliens?
Besides, the entire concept of not controlling your units in the first place tends to break down how much micro is possible, unless you're suggesting we have tons of NPC doodads for the commander to micro. If you are suggesting this, what is the appropriate counter by Aliens?
Well, I suppose the commander is a little slower paced in NS than in Starcraft. This video showcaes potential in a commander-like situation. But you're right, micro is extremely ineffective (no control, really). Perhaps the ULTIMATE IDEA IS to promote marines following commander orders.
Perhaps, to increase the effectiveness of micro and teamwork, certain bonuses could be applied to Marines when they do something right (complete a checkpoint). If they move to a waypoint they are given, they get (+10 % Speed), (+10% Accuracy) or (+5 % Damage). This would give the edge to the team who is following orders and not ramboing. In any case, some reward must be given to marines who follow orders so that micro-management has a greater level of influence.
TO make it not unfair, the commander has to drop his movement and attack waypoints strategically, as only while in their area of effect do the beneficial effects apply, similar to the Sensory chamber - cloak idea. The commander could also do "retreat" command, or "buckled in" command. These would have different effects. Buckle down increases the marine's armor by 30, but if even one marine leaves the area of effect, the entire effect is broken.
And if you are really smart, you can make combo-checkpoints that connect to eachother for huge stackage bonuses. This will make an organized marine army a strong contender. For example, if the commander links goals, if a marine completes them in good time the bonuses stack. Consider five marines who all respond well to micro, doing all his orders. He selects them, drops a movement checkpoint followed by a Buckle Down checkpoint. They all move as a group and reach the movement checkpoint, receiving a 10% movement bonus, then quickly enter the Buckle Down checkpoint. Once they reach the checkpoint, because there is a timer between the last checkpoint and the next checkpoint (based on marine speed & calculated distance), if they reach the area within a given amount of time the bonuses from the previous checkpoint STICK. This creates "momentum". So, the idea is that a marine squad can gain "momentum" if it follows orders well. "Momentum" is the benefits (+speed, damage, temp armor, etc).
Dude I know i'm brilliant.
Perhaps, to increase the effectiveness of micro and teamwork, certain bonuses could be applied to Marines when they do something right (complete a checkpoint). If they move to a waypoint they are given, they get (+10 % Speed), (+10% Accuracy) or (+5 % Damage). This would give the edge to the team who is following orders and not ramboing. In any case, some reward must be given to marines who follow orders so that micro-management has a greater level of influence.
TO make it not unfair, the commander has to drop his movement and attack waypoints strategically, as only while in their area of effect do the beneficial effects apply, similar to the Sensory chamber - cloak idea. The commander could also do "retreat" command, or "buckled in" command. These would have different effects. Buckle down increases the marine's armor by 30, but if even one marine leaves the area of effect, the entire effect is broken.
And if you are really smart, you can make combo-checkpoints that connect to eachother for huge stackage bonuses. This will make an organized marine army a strong contender. For example, if the commander links goals, if a marine completes them in good time the bonuses stack. Consider five marines who all respond well to micro, doing all his orders. He selects them, drops a movement checkpoint followed by a Buckle Down checkpoint. They all move as a group and reach the movement checkpoint, receiving a 10% movement bonus, then quickly enter the Buckle Down checkpoint. Once they reach the checkpoint, because there is a timer between the last checkpoint and the next checkpoint (based on marine speed & calculated distance), if they reach the area within a given amount of time the bonuses from the previous checkpoint STICK. This creates "momentum". So, the idea is that a marine squad can gain "momentum" if it follows orders well. "Momentum" is the benefits (+speed, damage, temp armor, etc).
Dude I know i'm brilliant.
Potentially a very good idea. Though it would be tricky to make this balanced.
But yeah top suggestion
But yeah top suggestion
Discuss in it's thread please. This is not a thread to suggest ideas, but to provide examples of good implementations from other games.
QUOTE(Redford @ Jun 5 2008, 09:36 AM)
I always liked the ack system in Tribes 2. It was the only ack system I ever used because it was so well implemented, and few other games have even noticed or cared to copy it. In T2, all acks were used from the "V"oice command. From there, you were presented with a list of different saying categories, each with it's own letter.
The part that I liked about this system was that it was changeable. Both the voice binds and the keys that were used
Commander Zoom In/Out, like in Supreme Commander .
Youtube video
Fairly obvious why it would be nice, I don't think it needs explaining.
It would have to be balanced somehow, though. Maybe you can only see areas with marines in them, or in areas you just scanned with an observatory while zoomed in.
Sounds like a coding nightmare, never mind
(should this go here, or in the commander thread?)
Youtube video
Fairly obvious why it would be nice, I don't think it needs explaining.
It would have to be balanced somehow, though. Maybe you can only see areas with marines in them, or in areas you just scanned with an observatory while zoomed in.
Sounds like a coding nightmare, never mind
(should this go here, or in the commander thread?)
QUOTE(RustInPieces @ Oct 16 2008, 02:02 AM)
Commander Zoom In/Out, like in Supreme Commander .
...
It would have to be balanced somehow, though. Maybe you can only see areas with marines in them, or in areas you just scanned with an observatory while zoomed in.
...
It would have to be balanced somehow, though. Maybe you can only see areas with marines in them, or in areas you just scanned with an observatory while zoomed in.
Strategic zoom would be nice, but I believe they're implementing a more fixed height above the ground approach.
As far as balance, I assume they'll still be using the Fog of War they've been using, or at least Fog of War of some type, so it'll be fine.
I agree. the Voice system in Tribes 2 was just awsome. After a short while you could do the "combinations" for the most used sayings in a second and it doesn't "lag" as much as using a mouse menu does. while i DO like the ouse menu in NS I just think giving players the ability to use keys is generally good (faster, customizable, ...)
Schnitzel
Schnitzel
QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 24 2008, 05:33 PM)
I second the notion that the command keys are excellent. Whatever you do to the mouse interface please keep the command key interface the same.
QFT, please keep the ky "block" the way it is now by default
I agree, the "bhop" used in Warsow was a very very good implementation that I'd like to see for skulks in NS. It is intuitive (makes you feel like you're doing longer strides/leaps), it's incrementing (no "rocket start", so it really is a movement technique, not some trick you can pull of in a fight), you can just use your favourite jump key (no need to rebind Mwheel, use scripts or stuff like that) and you wont have the "exploiting glitches in the engine" discussion.
The Warsow-"Bhop" - "press jump key while in the air and when you hit the ground you will automatically jump again" - fit's perfectly IMHO. But it only fit's the skulk. Mainres are not about movement as much as Aliens (and if they want to be, they have to research JP tech to be). The erk flys, the Onos is just too heavy to be agile (bhopping Onos' really feels wrong to me), Fades have blink... the Skulk is the fast scout unit and should be able to use this movement technique. Maybe the gorge although it's... well.. it's our lovely "phatty".
my2cents
Schnitzel
The Warsow-"Bhop" - "press jump key while in the air and when you hit the ground you will automatically jump again" - fit's perfectly IMHO. But it only fit's the skulk. Mainres are not about movement as much as Aliens (and if they want to be, they have to research JP tech to be). The erk flys, the Onos is just too heavy to be agile (bhopping Onos' really feels wrong to me), Fades have blink... the Skulk is the fast scout unit and should be able to use this movement technique. Maybe the gorge although it's... well.. it's our lovely "phatty".
my2cents
Schnitzel
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.