For quite some time now I've been reminiscing over the v1.04 days. I didn't have a good connection so I only got to play on a occasion over at a friends house. I fell in love with the game for many of the same reasons you have all started and stuck with it. As the versions rolled around many of the lacking aspects were corrected as well as the introduction of new features. None of which I need to list since we are all aware. However, there was something that began to disappear. As game play balance increased the feel of the game, as one person put it, wasn't feeling like a "real game". The elements that put you, the player, into the Natural Selection universe was leaving... the atmosphere.

Originally, when I started to think about this loss of atmosphere I attributed it to the maps increasing in brightness and the increase in game pace. These do contribute in part. For instance, the brighter a map, the less spots a skulk can hide. In my opinion, a skulk should not always have to hide around a corner or lip. He should be capable of hiding up in dark ceilings watching the marine activity below without being visible. (Granted, some players are clever enough to watch their maps, but that should balance things out.) As for increased game pace, this did make the game more enjoyable, but on the down side there seemed to be less ambushing involved. The less ambushing could also be a result of increased map brightness. These two things have reduced the scare level that I once had in v1.04. (I'm curious to find out if others had felt at one time the game had more of an eerie feel to it, if at all.)

It wasn't until recently that I realized that there is more affecting the loss in atmosphere than game play alterations. A week or two ago, I took an opportunity to download and install NS v1.04, just for nostalgia. Upon loading each map and taking a tour around as a marine, I began to feel that old time atmosphere that really made the game for me. What was it? It wasn't the 50 armor. It wasn't the old LMG sound (side note: I prefer new sound). What it was, was the map itself. Besides the increased darkness, which is a major plus in my books, the character of the maps brought me back.

The original maps had character. What do I mean by character? Character, in this sense, is what makes each map unique. It incorporates a unique layout and theme to individualize it from the other maps. This was achieved through a number of means. I've listed a few, and those who are more analytical about games may be able to find more.
Purpose
Layout
Nodes

Purpose:
The rooms are designed with a purpose in mind, be it a medical room, pressurizing chamber, rail transport, communications, entrance hall, landing platform, generator room, engine room, etc. When you enter those rooms, you get an idea of what kind of activity took place before the infestation began. The maps as a whole had a sort of purpose, too. Was it a capital ship? A mining camp? Research vessel? Now, the maps feel lifeless, like there was never any humans there to begin with.

Layout & Nodes:
Though the new layouts address balancing the game, especially for competitions, they do not have that unique feel. It almost always takes the same amount of time to walk from Marine Start to either of the two outside hives. There is almost always two routes leading out of each hive (excluding vents) and three from marine start. At almost each of the first nodes, leading from Marine Start, the route branches off into two directions, heading toward a hive.
Which leads me into the topic of nodes. The nodes in the new maps are extremely predictable. The map tends to be symmetrical when it comes to node placement. Two routes from each hive always lead to an equidistant node, which happen to overlap the two outside "first encounter" nodes from marine start. In the middle nodes are overlapping "first encounter" nodes from two of the three hives.
Now I understand that these aspects were designed to balance the game so that each team had an equal opportunity to resources and strategic positioning as well as an attempt to make each hive an equally strategic starting hive, but this seriously detracted from atmosphere.
The nodes in 1.04, though maybe unbalanced in their positioning, made each map unique. Balance issues, in my opinion, can be resolved not only by creating equidistant paths and nodes (over used at the moment), but by how light/dark a room is, possible siege positions, vents, number of area nodes, double-back hallways, etc.

What am I getting at? Again, my own opinion, but if Natural Selection 2 is to do well, the amount of time and effort on the maps needs to be there. This includes balancing maps not by creating something symmetrical and lifeless. For a current map that fulfills my idea of atmosphere through character, take a tour through ns_machina (v3.2) (though nodes are evenly dispersed, the rooms are also very 3dimensional with its multiple levels).

Disclaimer:
This is not to say that I don't give credit to those that put an immense number of hours into making the maps we play now and by modifying them as the game was modified.

Well we are dealing here with an ancient engine pushed to the limits with NS. Actually pushed well past it's breakingpoint in 1.04. As much as I loved 1.04, there were much issues with the maps. Mostly because of the total amount of buildings that could be build and ofcourse all the steam/sounds/lights flickering and other interactive objects, which take a huge toll on the engine performance.

The brightness was introduced because people could easily "hax" their 3dcard to show everything superbright, while people who didn't do this saw everything as they should (dark and moody).

NS had a lot of atmosphere in the good ol'days, and the current maps should also have this. It is very well possible to put all of those atmospheric entities in there without breaking the engine, but due to constant complaining (mostly from the now none existant competative scene) the maps began to loose all they character they once had... They became more sterile and void of sound, doors, weldable and all other fun interactive stuff.

If you take a look at the custom maps out there, there are a lot which incorporate a lot of interactive features. I remember ns_oasis for example which had a dual weldable to activate a hive killing steam. Or ns_nexus with it's elaborate layout and lots of level over level areas. And ns_achio () with its weldable resnode, lockable hive resnodes, 2button door and loads of weldables. Or the unfinshed ns_leia, which had a lot of stuff laying around from the people who worked there. ns_hulk with its vieable dropship. ns_vargus sexy as hell yet unfinished (CMON DARKATI! ). co_perkele, with a very nice skybox and custom textures.

I could go on and on but these maps don't meet the "ns requirements" (being to large, to dark, to much sounds , to many doors, to much stuff that blocks their bunnycrap and shizzle like that... I guess to much of the 1.04 feel or something that they currently dread )

BUT since NS2 is on source there a loads of possibilities to put in atmosphere due to this engine being way better with particles/sounds and load of runtime entities. Well let's just say it ain't goldSRC, good as that engine was it is being pushed too far I guess.

Agree with both of you. The mood in this game is pretty much dry and the maps do feel like they are made more for clan play. Every other game I have enjoyed also have these maps, but instead of changing the "actual" maps for clan maps, they use them both. So a server runs which maps it wants. Maybe there should be a clearer distinction between the two. Instead of trying to create a map both can lpay, do like every other game out there and make maps just for the game and of course let clan players make maps for their clan play.

Maybe the developers can keep from giving in to complaining. Design the game for what you want it to be. Then, if someone feels they need to make a map with the same lighting everywhere and obviously node points, let em. But don't change the game for them. If you want to make a map dark, then make it dark. If yuo want to make it gloomy, then do it.

I certainly don't take photographs everyone else likes... I go out and shoot what I want, where I want and how I like.

i deof agree with the blandness of maps detracting from atmosphere, which is essentually what draws u in to the game. I hate ns.eclipse (sorry to the designer of this map). It is basically just a load of pointless corridors, i dont even know y the rines and aliens fight over it. I like machina, Shiva and bast because theres stuff in them. ALthough on most servers everyone hates shiva, doesnt really like machina and occasionally votes in bast. But eclipse is a very popular map. I presume this is because it is the best balanced. but in my opinion its very boring.

Id like to see maps with more character in ns 2 aswell. i think there can be a balance between fairness of a map and its character. Not every part of a map has to be perfectly balanced aslong as the map as a hole is relativly balanced. In some maps i think its ok to have a slight bias - on the pubs i play on lost usually results in an alien victory wen most other maps dont, hera often does too. But that makes beating the bias more of a challenge.

Also, locations of hives and nodes are just ONE part of a map. You also have weld points, item placement, timers on areas, obstacles, vents, ladders, line of sight, communications... so many things can be added to maps. Say you made a map that always seems to be in favor of the aliens. Simple fix: Weldable supply spot with 2 SGs, one ammo pack and some mines inside. There ya go.

Or maybe allow a timed supply drop from the "fleet." After 5 minutes you get a a random weapons drop from "fleet command." Inside the phased shipment is maybe one HMG, one SG and some proximity mines or something. *shrug*

If a map caters to the marines, you don't even need to change the maps physical makeup. Leave it as is, and maybe designate an area as a no communications spot. Maybe have heavy machinery ni one room, so since the marines always seem to go in there and take the hive, make it so the voice and HUD commnuications get scrambled in that area.

Include roomas that are dark, and some that are bright. That way anyone who tries the gamma cheat is blinded. If they complain, you know they just want to cheat-

There are so many frikin ways to balance maps that shouldn't require them to be so stale.

You all are driving at the same point, which is good. Balance can be achieved on so many levels other than the layout and node placement. We could come up with lists and lists of variables that can tip the scales in the others favor. People that think this way are the ones needed to design the new maps. And I do understand it would be a full time effort. Just as much could be put into a map as into the game engine itself.



Exactly, I had addressed that in a thread I created called "Light Round 2" (or something like that). If a spectrum of brightness is created it will become more difficult for those that ramp their gamma one way or the other. Light Round 2 addresses the idea of making light almost like a competitive "resource" that would aid visually for either team with their associated light level (marines with light, aliens with darkness) and any unseen perks like ability tweaks in their native environment.
http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...howtopic=103097

Working with the NS2TR art assets, I am very much of the same mindset.

The stuff I've been working on has been all about lighting and atmosphere, which I think is absolutely vital to NS2.

also, look how well TF2 works. There's only really 1map per gamemode, and they're all completely different in size and speed - yet it works great. I think people like that the maps aren't all the same, which kind of supports the original posters oppinions. I also have to agree about that somewhere on the way the athmosphere was lost. My old favourite in terms of athmosphere was mineshaft

Yeah, if Mineshaft fixed up a few of its blatant balance issues (is it that hard to remove the ladder and add a vent to U-Turn?), it would have lasted, imo.

and co_opertationb1 with 13 rooms of co-operative interactive madness


http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=102074&hl=



(Yes its my map *cough* but as interactive as they come)

If this were true, people would be playing your map.

I've played his map an a couple servers none recently though. Most of the servers I used to play on 6 months ago are gone anyway. I can't think of any servers that play custom maps other than siege servers though. When there are only a few classic servers to begin with, it's hard to get a custom non-siege map in the rotation.

I actually like mine shaft but the only server ive ever seen it on is Able ns, and that servers usually full, and they vote maps, but it occasionally comes up.

I imagine if ns becomes popular enought there will be a big enough fan base to support servers that play a slightly off beat selection of maps. On ns 1 i can only usually rase about 6 servers palying classic with more than 14 players on them. I dont know how things work server side but id like to see more variety of servers on NS2, so maybe some servers could play maps streamlined for uber balanced competative play and other servers could focus on immersive more characterised maps that may not always be so fair.

The atmospheric aspect is usually the thing that takes the players attention on the first plays.

But many players who start to playing more competetiv (dunno how to spell this word right ^^) are annoyed of dark corners etc. I started playing with high gamma settings and then bright maps like ns_hera appeared. And i thought i could never use my eyes again xD
Well first time there were many dark corners etc but know everywhere is light and so on.
PPl started using MC as first chamber instead of SC or DC because you cant hide... you need to be fast to reach the marine before he reacts. In the past you heared marines building a rt knowing they will go this way to get the next node and you hided in the dark waited for the rines maybe even parasited them and without getting spotted. You waited for the close combat because thats you strength.

But if you think that its the first contact why there are so many dark corners? marines getting everything working so all thinks are full of light all doors working lifts and so on.
Well for the first contact i think this it how it should be. The marines world isnt destroyed so much.
So lights should work almost everywhere mabye near hives there could be more broken lights etc.

Well i dont know how the dynamic infestation will change atmospheric aspects in NS2 maps but it would be nice if a half-infested light starts blinking or turns off or something.

A monitor showing normal screen with green lights etc so everything is ok and when infestation takes control over the room lights getting red error messages on the screen maybe alarm sounds.


I also think about alien maps. So not everything will happen in marine stations. Maybe an alien cave gets rushed by marines. Its fully infested. They build up a cc and commander is able to set up a lighting or bright light that makes infestation go back. So the marines can clean the area. Maybe they infest the area with nanobots or something.

the marines would just nuke the cave, but not an expensive space station so i doubt there will be too many alien maps (not to mention the aliens don't really have a home world)

Maybe the aliens found ways around that too. Maybe the aliens further evolved and the DI emits a electromagnetic countermeasure that turns the nuke into a big tin can in the sky, and you HAVE to go down and get personal with them if you want to take them out. Maybe their cave is so deep underground you can't nuke it, but you certainly can't just let the aliens have it so you have to send in the marines. Maybe have a map where the marines have to get to a certain section of the map (preferably on the other side of one of the hives so its hard) to plant a beacon and then the aliens get nuked (and the marines have two minutes to try and get to the drop ship before the whole station explodes giving the aliens a chance to get a moral victory by taking the marines with them). There are more situations then this you could come up with. If you REALLY want an alien map with an alien environment, you could do it, and I think it could look very awesome to see some heavily entrenched and developed alien life. So far all NS has shown is what the aliens look like when they are hunting down and destroying threats to the hive, but what do they do when they are left alone for a long time? What kinds of stuff grows? Maybe some AI controlled drone things to make food or something? There is lots you could do, and I think it would be fun for mappers to fiddle with and if done right could create a whole new environment that would really truly let NS freaks (like me) get into the map.

Unless the humans were mining something valuable from the mine that they didn't want damaged by a nuke.

Let me quickly add my vote to the first barrage of mutual agreements, NS was and is an incredible game, and the mapping is tremendous.

I however agree that when so much emphasis was placed on playability (I'm all for this by the way) the value of atmosphere was all but sacrificed, which in my opinion is a drastic overreaction to what is definitely a real, but alternatively solvable problem.

All the methods have been addressed in the first few posts, so I'm just adding my support here. Oh yeah, and Domining is going in my ignore box with Smood pretty soon. Carry on.

Smoke and darkness are redundant and do not look good anyway.


Experiencing delusions of grandeur again, Radix the Great?

fixed