Natural Selection 2 News Update - Knife + Pistol = Taser? Options

[Nima_]

An above post mentioned having NS1-style pistol and knife available through unlocks, I think this idea could be fun..

[sicbud]

Well, hurry up and get it in the game, release the alpha and then we can give some REAL feedback! :P

[steppin'razor]

Sounds awesome, I was just stoked to see a update with new content. Can't wait to get my hands on this thing.

[aegix]

First of all I don't know how happy Taser International will be about their trademarked name for a supposedly non-lethal weapon being used to kill things :P

Thoughts on the actual design:
I think this overcomplicates things a bit.

• Having bullets only fire after a click is complete rather than the instant the mouse button is depressed (like all other FPS games) could make it feel really strange and laggy.
• The charged attack itself is a bit unintuitive I think, and could be especially frustrating for new players dying to it. Imagine you get tagged by a marine but then run around a corner and wait in ambush. You think you've escaped but suddenly you start taking an increasing amount of damage from no apparent source.
• The fact that it takes marines a significant amount of time to take down multiple alien structures is a good thing. It gives the aliens a chance to respond.
• In NS1 there is a tradeoff on the part of the marine when attacking a structure: you can either use you knife and become somewhat oblivious to approaching aliens because of your blocked vision and the knifing sound OR you can use your weapons to shoot the structure and become vulnerable to an attack during reload. The "tag and zap" of the taser removes both of those dangers.

What I'd rather see:
Similar weapon concept. I like the idea of an electrically based secondary weapon rather than a cookie cutter pistol.
Primary fire: Essentially the same as the pistol in NS1. Shoots out projectiles that do a set amount of damage on impact. Maybe transponders that unload their entire charge instantly with a nice electric effect? :D I guess this attack could also do a weak initial hit with a short damage over time effect to differentiate it a bit. There are lots of options.
Secondary fire: Electric arc. Similar to the right click functionality on the current concept. A melee only weapon, single target, but does an increasing amount of damage the longer it's on a target up to a suitable maximum (don't want nodes dying too fast).

That design is far simpler and solves a lot of problems:

• It's intuitive. Everyone knows how a pistol works and with the help of a visual cue on the weapon like a charge bar, it would be obvious that damage is ramping up on the melee attack. It will also be obvious where the damage is coming from.
• The ramping damage on the secondary fire lets marines take out structures relatively quickly but it also means it's very hard for them to get the upper hand on aliens in melee. It was always frustrating getting knifed as a skulk. The low initial damage means aliens will always be doing far more damage in a melee fight. You could also get a satisfying sizzle going on stationary players like eggs or afk gorges :D
• It preserves the tradeoff between having time to react to incoming aliens and attacking a structure that a taser would remove.

This post has been edited by aegix: Jul 23 2009, 08:11 AM

[FocusedWolf]

You know what is horribly wrong with this idea!!!

It makes the secondary-weak weapons look cooler then your primary weapon... I mean who is going to use some crappy rifle when they can just start running around the map with a MacGyver weapon that can do everything!!! (from tasering gorges at the start of a round, to taking down enemy rts in a flash, to acting as a forcefield, to having long range attacks with the electrodes, to barbecuing alien eggs in the hive...)

Sorry but that does sound a bit overpowered for what you consider to add to the game as a weak pointless weapon. And if it is a big fat flop because it's TOO WEAK then people will just use their guns to shoot down enemy rts like they do now and ASK FOR MORE AMMOOO!!! and think of how much artwork-modelling-time would be wasted. And i bet it'll be harder to skin and debug this 1 super weapon then it will be to add a dedicated pistol and knife to the game. I mean you don't even need to begin to brief your art guy on how a pistol works... but with this thing you gotta give em an instructional video + story boards.

I think it's safe to say this is a waste of time starting with the concept drawing to show us this:



See you could of just gave us that photo!



----------------------

I'd rather see a remote detonation c4 like device to take out structures. It could be an upgrade like mines and hand grenades used to be. Knifing an onos or a skulk used to be EPIC because it happened so rarely. What about a mini saw like a handheld version of a chainsaw so that it does more to structures but can still be used as a melee weapon.

Wow we think so much alike on this topic that it's scary.

I to was thinking about some form of explosive det to deal with structures... think about how many times skulks run in and kill you while your busy knifing a RT for 5 minutes...

With the explosives, you just set it and get the hell out of there... boom. Skulks never get a heads up but who cares... as someone said to me... the game is supposed to be nonsymmetric... therefore if skulks start biting some marine rt, and marines respond to save the rt... it shouldn't be the same situation if marines attack a enemy rt... just set your charges and move on.

If the commander decides to drop a new rt, then that could be the advertisement to the enemy team... that marines are building something... it all works out.

Since skulks can travel the map fast, and get those rts up fast... it makes sense that marines are slow moving and therefore can't spend a lot of time to take down a enemy rt.

And later on in the game when skulks can do that suicide-bomber thing... well then they can use it to blow up marine rts.

This post has been edited by FocusedWolf: Jul 23 2009, 08:36 PM

[Sirot]

I agree with everything that aegix has said. Very well thought out post.

[MasterPTG]

I think the taser is lame and L4D'ish. Also, the stuns mentioned in earlier articles are also lame and L4D'ish.

L4D disables the survivor's ability to do anything. Which is lame, and I hate it. Make me dead or alive but not in-between (who wants to be in purgatory while playing a game?).
----
That 'lame' rant aside, I mostly agree w/ Greg.

My suggestion would be to:
[
-Rifle left mouse: fire,,, Rifle right mouse bludgeon
(bludgeon does not stun FFS, wow)
(bludgeon does 2/3 damage per second of knife, 2/5 damage per second of welder)
(upgradeable 'right-mouse' rifle attack to semi-auto 3 shot 'nade launcher).
(option to fully replace rifle with buyable full-auto or semi-auto 6 shot 'nade launcher) (option to buy flamethrower or HMG)
-Pistol left mouse (15 bullets): Full auto fire (less accurate),,, Pistol right mouse (semi-auto, capped at a reasonably accurate semi-auto speed, super accurate).
-Knife, welder (welder more powerful melee): melee
]
-If they don't want to spend the time knifing down the structures, at least they can buy the 3-shot GL upgrade for their rifle and shoot nades at the structures "super fast" (semi-auto, plunk..plunk..plunk). HOWEVER, it's balanced because it costs resources that the marines could have used for buying something else--and something that the marines will almost always lose eventually, sooner or later.

The normal '3' main types of weapons does well for all other FPS's. Why change it? Is it really needed? Is it going to cost you more $ in the long run, than will save you in the short run? What about all the NS1 people who are going to be missing their pistol?

[c0d3m45t3r]

Hello NS2 team,

I just made an account here even though I have always loved NS. I felt I wanted to comment on the knife+pistol solution.

I liked the knife in NS it was fast to pull out and fast to cut enemies. It also was something to whoop out when bored or travelling to destination. I liked how we "brought a knife to a nuke fight" and "all we need is our trigger finger" right? wrong "if you disable the enemy's finger, he is unable to squeeze the trigger" ok enough I could quote Starship Troopers more but the point is NS had a cool knife.

I also liked how unlikely it was to kill an alien with a knife, but on the off chance of succeeding to knife an alien with very low hp and getting that knife kill was very satisfying, I remember trying to get the killing blow on an onos with a knife - I did not succeed.

I read how you wrote that the monotonous activity of staring at a alien structure and knifing it might be something players didn't want. Well I for one was always very excited when destroying alien structures - it meant getting close to them and putting away your rifle/main weapon leaving you open to attacks and ( the structure) limiting your view, was very strategic.


So in conclusion I think I want to say, I will miss the knife but it's nothing too terrible perhaps the new approach is better or maybe even necessary.
Either way I'm grateful you are working on the game and giving so deep thought to all aspects. I will but the colletctors edition asap:P

[Sirot]

Thinking back on it. I find the idea that the marines using a Taser kind of silly. Why are energy weapons only a sidearm when they can be lethal? Why is something that is essentially a beefed up Taser in the future?

[CheesyPeteza]

I like in ns1 that when you were knifing a structure you were exposed because you had to switch weapons to get a gun out. The knifing sound was also very noisy so it was hard to hear aliens creeping up on you.

I would like both of these kept in the new design as they were good features.

Do the darts from the taser act like the pyro's flare gun in tf2? If so I'm a pretty good sniper with those so I don't see why this new weapon can't be used for accurate shots to get a lerk in a vent.

[pSyk0mAn]

I have to say, I'm glad that you used a question mark in the topic headline, because this means there is still hope.

And I'm shocked to agree with FocusedWolf for once regarding the design.

[Mr. Epic]

I think I misread the original news piece... "It also means one less weapon to concept, model, texture, rig and animate!"


That to me sounds crazy. How difficult would it be to do a knife and pistol that already exist? I would think that the argument is nullified by the experimental nature of this concept. Go ahead and try it if you want, thats why there is an ALPHA (right?) and eventually a beta... but please don't exclude the others and hope to integrate the two to save some time. Count on the knife and pistol, even as the back. Is it so hard?

[Price]

Very good the game supports Lua...i see a lot of changes there.

[homicide]

It is a shame that this will remove the only 'long-range' marine weapon. Without some kind of long-range weapon I foresee obnoxious aliens playing at the end of long hallways. However, the overall concept seems decent.

[Duskstalker]

It is a shame that this will remove the only 'long-range' marine weapon. Without some kind of long-range weapon I foresee obnoxious aliens playing at the end of long hallways. However, the overall concept seems decent.

How do you know they aren't adding a long range marine weapon?

Also I personally like the idea of a marine carrying a taser around, it makes sense that the marines would want to carry around a weapon that had the potential to just give a shock rather then kill, after all if the marines needed to break up a fight between their own members or stop some kind of assault (female marines added might be a nice alternative to carrying mace :P) having a non lethal weapon on you is good. And chances are that you wouldn't leave it in the locker room whilst you went to battle the aliens, so to me the concept makes sense.

Plus who wants to be carrying a knife, a pistol and an lmg and maybe a welder.. oh and some mines... maybe some grenades on them all the time. It would make sense for the rines to try and reduce the amount they had to hold even if it was by only one.

[CoolCookieCooks]

Retales comic about NS1 has become true!

[odaeyss]

Think I might like the idea, though it'll be a fine line to walk making it strong enough to not feel like running with a welder in ns1, and weak enough that it's not op.. strange mechanic.
but honestly I don't care for the artwork very much. the design side of it, that is.. it's too.. taser. i mean, it IS a taser. this is the future, make it different.. more electrodes, maybe a billy club looking affair? .. ohh, or a buckler. That'd fit in well with the charged secondary fire on it making a wall -- base it on the idea of a buckler, if it's going to be more of a last-resort defensive, not offensive, weapon. Plus that'd probably look freaking crazy.

[Dalin Seivewrigh...]

Taser Sues Second Life Virtual World Creator Over Gun Sales

If Microsoft has to obey different "rules" because they're a Monopoly, I think Trademarks like "Taser" and "Kleenex" and all other words that have grown into common usage ("Band-aid" is another one) should immediately lose their status as Trademarked and can therefore no longer be trademarked by anyone. The sheer idiocy!

[Crispy]

"A backup ranged weapon that could be used when your primary weapon couldn't be used" - Yeah? So what? Like all games have this. It's the fundamental of most games, you have your primary weapon, generally the one with the big clip size for general killing, your secondary for backup use when your primary is out (or for use in specialist situations, i.e. at RANGE), and then your classic melee weapon.

ALSO

How is the pistol an uber weapon!?
Ever since the cap was added to the RoF, the pistol is a very balanced, yet key weapon in NS.

Although I think half of what you wrote on your update page was complete bull. I don't want to have a dig, as it's too early to say how the taser will affect gameplay.

But in all honesty, I think you are making a risky (and more likely bad) move.

Yet we will see. GL

p.s. It's nice to see you're thinking about the game in so much depth, but I feel you need actual PLAYER experience on your side. People who actually play games on a common basis.

Couldn't disagree more. The Pistol is very powerful in NS and more accurate than any other weapon in the game with no damage falloff. Compared to the LMG it has higher DPS (not including magazine limitation). The rate of fire on the pistol can still be increased beyond what most players are capable of via some clever binding (i.e. the fix didn't completely work). I like the Pistol in NS because I'm used to it, but I think this is not only more unique to other games, it's an elegant way of streamlining the inventory and reducing dev time.

Couple of concerns though,

i) won't making the electricity / sparks / chain look good take a lot of effort compared to a pistol / knife, so would you really be saving there?

Probably not, since the electricity could be created out of 2D sprites and particle effects instead of 3D stuff. Even if the beam is 3D, it's 1 weapon versus 2 fully concepted, modelled, textured, rigged animated weapons with sound effects, balance testing and HUD sprites to boot.

ii) I'm not sure I see a way of animating the melee mode in any way that doesn't look pansy-ish. I mean if you went to poke something with that gripping the handle / hilt, if they were moving with any speed or power it'd get knocked out of your hand surely? Just worried that it'll lack the brutality that melee weapon animations should have a least some degree of.

I agree with this. Tasers just aren't very military. They have a reputation for being either stealthy or non-lethal, so making them feel powerful will take some polish.

iii) I don't think that firing darts into multi-structures and waiting till they go splat will really be any less monotonous than knifing it, unless it's quicker... but if it's quicker how are you planning to balance it? Presumably you wouldn't be able to do this - even with extreme skills - to OCs or they'd be kinda pointless.

I think it would be best if they allowed the Taser to do a 'full discharge' burst that would only work in close proximity but could take a structure down to 75% health in one shot from one Marine. The 'burst' would recharge very slowly, meaning lots of marines could takre a structure down very quickly, but a single Marine would still only be able to do a quick burst and then resort to depleting primary weapon ammo to kill the structure quicker. What I don't think is that Marines should be able to destroy a structure from range without depleting their primary weapon's ammo. The knife made Marines vulnerable while attacking RTs solo. This concept needs to stay for NS2.

[Rhodri]

Personally I'm not a fan of the design itself at-all. It feels far to civilian and tame - I just feel it needs to be more aggressive and military. I think a big part of this is how it's held, will it really be held one handed like in the sketch (like a large candle lighter) or two handed?

As for it's in game implamentation I think Aegix's post above is extremely clear and well thought out and would solve all of my concerns about the taser design. Cookie for you :)