Development Blog Update - Marine "Power Grid" design Options

[ShadowOnTheSun]

guess it's time to start gathering a crowd to produce a more asymmetric, dynamic mod with the ns2 toolset, because the devs are about to destroy everything we loved about ns...

[rammaj]

Hi. first of all this is my first post in these forums but I have been here since the begening of time .I followed everything even months before the release of NS1 so its about time that i joined.
I wanted to say that I like the new idea its fresh and diffrent from the first game but thats the hole point right?
I do have to say that with all these changes the game needs allot of planning before going on with such gameplay mechanics the hole way. But I have faith in these guys and I think that they will pull it off and make NS2 even better than NS1.

some notes about it.

1.the flashing light thing in the rooms when nodes are attacked is just too much and will be annoying when as a marine getting attacked.

2.Im not sure about how the marine team gets "money" to buy weapons and uppgrades does resurses get delt to each player and will there be kind of a bonus system like if a marine is killing khara or maybe taking out structures does that player get bonus points from killings + the "money" he is getting from RT allowing him to uppgrade faster ( kinda rewerding for playing good )?

3.I like the idea of more commanders BUT i would like it to be like this

1 primery MASTER commander and the rest have less control but also at the same time have a big impact on winning the match by maybe limiting them only to bulid small forward bases and drop health / ammo and maybe give each secondary commander One squad while the master commander controls more squads also easier interface as someone mentioned before for making it easier for new players to learn commanding.


sorry for my bad english its because i dont live in the states i live in Europe wich brings me to my next question how can i buy the game when released cause i definitely want to be part of the BETA I mean will you be selling it through Steam?

PS
Its about time that we get another famous unknown worlds videocast Can't wait to see the cinematic footage and i do love the name Cinematica for the tool.

This post has been edited by rammaj: Apr 16 2009, 01:06 PM

[OBhave]

We should all just chill until there are more posts about the gameplay before having any strong opinions.

Personally, I'm glad that they're making NS2 more than just a graphics patch... the old NS will always be there for us if we want more of the same.

AND I'm glad they're toning down the asymmetry in some areas. For example, the asymmetric resource model (single pool vs. individual pools) was bloody impossible to balance. So alien commander = good. Plus it makes the game far more "pubbable", as a single noob alien can't ruin the game by not spending any res. So they're toning down the asymmetry a bit, big deal, I have plenty of faith that they'll retain more than enough to keep things interesting.


I look forward to clarifications on the following:

1) What will be the purpose and function of multiple commanders?

2) Will we still have extra rooms/corridors and vents to keep level design interesting and avoid the CS-style of level design? (I'm 99% certain that the answer to this is yes, but it never hurts to clarify)

3) Will teching be zero-sum... i.e. will one team's teching ruin the other teams ability to tech?
(I hope this is not the case, as BattleZone 2 had similar elements and it sort of ruins the multiplayer unless the players agree on special rules which is of course only possible on a LAN)

This post has been edited by OBhave: Apr 16 2009, 02:02 PM

[Pehmolelu]

This has just 3 downsides imho:

There is ALWAYS someone who wants to ruin the game (Or is noob) by going to CC and spamming all res away.

The other thing is that there will be 1 or 2 hot zones on every map. If team wins that area, their chanse to win is very high, which leads to that every game will be similar. It would be ideal if every map would have areas that are all equally important.

Also game wouldnt have as fast pace as it has now, since soloing would have a lot less of use, players would now actually move in teams, but the gameplay will probably be alot slower. I really enjoy the fast gameplay of NS1.

Otherwise, I really like this tech tree etc thing. I love the idea.

I just hope that NS2 wont have:
Slow gameplay speed
Important hotspots whichs leads to other teams victory
Possibility for players to ruin the game by spamming all the res as marine comm.

But how...

[Emanon]

Not sure what my opinion is on this (not that anyone cares)

but

It is definitely a feature that can either make or break this game. Take your time implementing this!

[JonSolo]

Personally, I think this is a great idea and I'm surprised more people on the forums aren't behind it. I think this design has worked for games like CoH and DoW personally because it gets the emphasis on the action and getting players out into the field in the early game. Obviously this happens due to resource and tech advancement, but I reckon it will force both sides to be more strategic and protect or target supply chains. Taking it from the only game that I can think of that precedes NS in this hybrid genre, the 1998 remake of Battlezone, it worked extremely well for varying the gameplay and forced the players to be constantly in action.

I like the visual effects as described as well with lights flickering-- although it may not be immediately obvious which room is under attack, if perhaps it's somewhere down the chain... but the most important part is that it makes sense. As others have mentioned, having sentries or structures with limited battery life or capacitance would make sense, particularly if it was accompanied by the visual and auditory cues you describe. Like, a countdown timer or beeping that lets the players know the sentries are powering down after power has been cut. Perhaps the battery packs could be purchased as individual add-ons to each structure? Further, maybe related to the "alternate power" suggestion, there could be access points that skulks and other small creatures could get at to "gnaw" upon and disrupt power in other ways? If the Commander then purchases "alternate" power, then there could be some interesting visual cues, like cables or tubes appearing from points in the wall.

I take it that the NS1 idea of being able to seal up rooms or entrances may not appear in this version of NS2? I always felt the idea meshed well with the genre and could have great gameplay potential.

[NeoSniper]

So, you're saying a 30 min meat grinder on choke points is all positive to the present dynamic skirmishing around the map?

NS1 is personally the best gaming experience there is to have (Because my favorites genres just happen to be FPS and RTS). I hope nothing I said made it seem like I thought otherwise. However I do think that NS2 can be better and that it can only be better through its differences. This one in particular I feel positive about yet I do have my worries.

About the "meat grinder"... If its and epic stand-off, then cool. If it a boring stalemate, then boo. I hope the implementation leads to the former.

To basically all the long "negative" posts in Page 8 (#141-#160 for me). Very well thought out and constructive criticism. Especially about the importance of build able non-res rooms. I not a mapper but it seems true that in NS1 it was quite important and made things interesting for mappers to be able to make "empty rooms" with strategic importance. Adding depth in commanding to be able to recognize this and decide to make a base that protects no res-node but is still important. Maybe some effect like this can happen when Tech-rooms are not JUST at the periphery of the map (or some other mapping variations).

We should all just chill until there are more posts about the gameplay before having any strong opinions.

This sentence is very in tune with your user name lol. In a good way!

Personally, I'm glad that they're making NS2 more than just a graphics patch... the old NS will always be there for us if we want more of the same.

QTF

Also some people mentioned this idea making the game more pubable or pub-friendly. I also think this is true as it can be a good tool for guiding new-players. So I'm for this as it something that can auto organize teams. I hoping something is in the works to address this loss of freedom within the dead zones.

Supposedly NS2 will be very modable and I think that's what will give the game its lifetime. Which means it's better for all of us if the vanilla is more accessible so that we get as big a player base as we can.

[KungFuSquirrel]

There are some very valid concerns here based on the state of the map layout drafts you're seeing (which I'll try to address sometime soon in a blog describing the thought process and workflow), but there's also some knee-jerking without the full picture... this post won't provide that, but will hopefully address a few comments and questions.

Scale:

When we say "smaller" it doesn't suddenly mean this map is suddenly two rooms, or the size of dust. Here's a ~1:1 size comparison of the block-in layout you're seeing against Eclipse:



It's definitely pulled in a bit, but you're mostly seeing a reduction in the pointless corridor winding through the middle of the level. Rooms will be a bit bigger (I suspect the RT rooms will grow a bit before all's said and done), but connections between them will be shorter.

Size still may vary based on tech point and resource nozzle count, but in general, assume that maps will be on the small side of the ns_ maps, but a good bit larger than the co_ maps.

Symmetry:

You can see already that a symmetric base layout doesn't translate to a completely symmetrical CTF level. Many of the base layouts designed so far have symmetrical elements (though not always along an obvious axis) but there are no plans for any real symmetric levels. This level does have some intentional left-right symmetry near the central points, but it should look appropriate in the final version, and won't line up with the "symmetry" of the level, which is along a 45 degree-ish axis through the middle. Another important point of apparent symmetry is elevation, and generally speaking as you move out from marine spawn you'll see similar elevation gradients in NS2 levels that were present in NS1.

For comparison, Veil started out as a far more symmetrical level than this. You can only really tell in and around Nanogrid, which was a little sloppily done on my part, but the rest of the level evolved out of it pretty well.

Complexity:

Keep in mind you're looking at the first greybox blockin of a new level here. These usually aren't released, and for good reason! Neither the layout draft or the blockin currently care about anything other than tech point rooms, resource rooms, and primary connections between them. "Primary" connections aren't an official/formal term, but I consider any hallway 192+ wide connecting the critical rooms to be "primary," while any route 128 or narrower or connecting from a route to another route counts as "secondary." A good example of this is in another map we're working on that features a large tram tunnel as a primary connection through chunks of the level, but also contains narrow maintenance corridors branching off that link other areas. Vents also would count as secondary areas. An additional secondary connection is present in the greybox map between the central RT rooms that, while not linking the power grid, links the two side RTs for skulks, lerks, and jetpack marines.

The primary connections shown will also eventually take on more personality than simple box hallways. Some will stay hallways, but some may become other connections (like the tram tunnel example), open areas overlooking other areas, or add small offshoot rooms. You might even see a sweet space bathroom that also serves as a valuable siege location. As it applies to the power grid, grid areas will link in primary routes, while secondary routes or smaller rooms could exist outside the grid or inherit the grid state of the nearest major room/primary route. My current assumption is secondary routes and any of their offshoots will remain within the grid, but vents will stay off-grid unless they specifically cross into a room or between two points in the same grid area (and even then, the grid won't change any lighting or states within the vent).

There will always be a direct visual connection from one area to the next. In general we're leaning toward direct physical connections but a case as suggested by Downforce is an option, and another couple layout drafts include a "shortcut" route where there is a direct connection from Marine Spawn to a central tech point, but it starts blocked by a door that can only be opened from the far side. This could also be triggered back shut by aliens to shut down marine reinforcements to that room or others in the level. You will not see rooms that randomly require another room on the far side of the map in any official map.

Stix brought up a concern that a route like one seen in Nancy would lose its purpose. Here's an (admittedly sloppy) example of how the power grid might cover the surrounding areas:



This is of course a little messy since the level was never designed for it, but if part of a level doesn't explicitly fall inside a power grid room, it doesn't mean it will become useless or be cut. Other cases compared to NS levels might actually warrant adding an additional RT or tech point (NS would technically have 4, remember).

This is also a good transition to another point of layout "complexity." A route like the one from MS to Mother Interface will not be present in any map shipping with NS2 - because, frankly, it's awful. The connection itself does serve a valuable purpose, but the path is a convoluted mess of inconsistent buttons and doors - sometimes the button is a button, sometimes the same one is a decoration, sometimes a the door requires a button, sometimes it opens when used, and sometimes it does nothing - and ends with a sloppy elevation change (maybe for VIS reasons, but still messy) that at first glance from the other direction completely hides that it's an exit. That may be "complex" but at the expense of the person playing the level.

Crispy specifically pointed out the one connection I'm least happy with in the entire level, and similar issues plague the lower central RT as well. I'd expect to see a slight bit more branching there from the nearby tech point to help alleviate that congestion. And, of course, adding those proper secondary connections to the level will also be very important. The big focus right now is simply implementing the first pass of the grid system, which is almost done, and getting some of our other base layouts up and running. From there we'll be fleshing these simple greybox layouts into more game-ready layouts.


Anyway, that almost turned into a blog entry by itself, but I'll have more details on how we developed what you're seeing, and probably a bunch of borrowed examples from this post, put together soon. Hope that helps at least clarify some of what you're seeing, and hopefully provides at least some comfort.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Great post KungFuSquirrel.

I had a few ideas for some of the concerns:

Flashing Lights When Attacked
- Instead of flashing lights per se, perhaps a color change in the lights? Or instead of a strobe like flash, use oscillating levels of light that seem to pulse. Use of lights could also act as a visual indicator to give a player directions to the area of conflict or the line & arrow Way Point path along the surface of the floor with a color indicating that the area is under attack. Hopefully that would meet the goals of informing and atmosphere without giving any players a strobe headache from the slide show affect of flicking the lights on and off.

More Commanders Means Fewer Grunts In The Action
- What if you had a Weld Bot out in the field for every butt in the Chair? Sure, it would still mean less fire power (maybe?), but it could provide a slight benefit, depending of course on the capability of the Weld Bot. Allowing a Commander to use his Weld Bot to repair and do the door thing? Would that also provide more visceral action for a Commander? Please consider it.

Edit: Oh, wait if you also tied the Mobile Siege Cannon to butts in Chairs as well? Might help with not having to develop as much AI behavior for your "bots", you know, other than path finding after a Commander gives it directions which I am assuming would be point and click, though you could have a Commander use WASD/Arrow Keys to move it... Hmm...

Well, hope my brain storming helps some.

This post has been edited by CanadianWolverine: Apr 16 2009, 05:37 PM

[locallyunscene]

Scale:
When we say "smaller" it doesn't suddenly mean this map is suddenly two rooms, or the size of dust. Here's a ~1:1 size comparison of the block-in layout you're seeing against Eclipse:

That's actually much smaller than I excepted. I mean the first tech point travel time is roughly half that of the first rt's currently. I like that each team has a "natural" tech point even if I think it is a little close personally. It seems like getting to tech lvl 2 will be almost trivial for both teams, assuming equal skill. Third tier will be significantly easier than it is currently for kharaa, but a little harder for marines in terms of map control.

On that topic, will there be tech levels beyond 3 for each side? It would make sense to me in a "swing of power" way. I'd say the steamroll effect is desirable past a certain point to end the game quickly which something that many complain NS is currently lacking. Mid to late game battles that cause a swing of 3-3 to 4-2 should be huge IMO.

This post has been edited by locallyunscene: Apr 16 2009, 07:02 PM

[niaccurshi]

Well it's clear that most of us look forward to understanding more about where it's going, I also don't necessarily know what is wrong with intense long games of an hour or so, people quite happily put down 2 hours for one run through Left For dead, for example.

[Bacillus]

It seems like getting to tech lvl 2 will be almost trivial for both teams, assuming equal skill. Third tier will be significantly easier than it is currently for kharaa, but a little harder for marines in terms of map control.

Most likely the res cost is much more crucial than the location at that point. Location on the other hand means that the team not investing in tech might be able to push deep into enemy side and destroy the tech advantage buildings before the oppositing team gains too much advantage from it. That's how it would play out in most RTSes at least.

Great post by KFS, it allowed me to understand the concept of NS2 maps a lot better.

[locallyunscene]

Most likely the res cost is much more crucial than the location at that point. Location on the other hand means that the team not investing in tech might be able to push deep into enemy side and destroy the tech advantage buildings before the oppositing team gains too much advantage from it. That's how it would play out in most RTSes at least.

Great post by KFS, it allowed me to understand the concept of NS2 maps a lot better.

Indeed, it is an interesting shift from NS1, which is why I mentioned it.

[Supernorn]

Eh. Sounds good to me. I'm down with the new gameplay ideas as long as you bring back the 1.0 era lighting to your maps. NS isn't about brightly lit corridors damnit.

This post has been edited by Supernorn: Apr 16 2009, 08:53 PM

[Nicksaerian]

If this has been discussed, please excuse the redundancy.

Instead of having multiple commanders there could be a command hierarchy structure. There have been many comments on how having multiple commanders would give opportunity to massive griefing possibilities. There would be one commander, who retains absolute control over what goes on, but there could be sub-commanders (I'm not sure what the preferred military terms would be, lieutenants?) who would serve as support to the commander in micro-managing. What control these sub-commanders have is up for debate because I'm not sure what their role could be in the context of the game. The point is, such a hierarchical structure would alleviate the griefing component while keeping the concept for multiple commanders intact.

[spellman23]

kungFu, you are awesome.

Thanks for clarifying all that. As a pseudo-mapper (i.e. I stink at it still) that was really helpful to kind of understand the methodology that the dev team is using to apply this concept into real maps. From the looks of things I believe you're heading in a good direction.

[aeroripper]

Flashing Lights When Attacked
- Instead of flashing lights per se, perhaps a color change in the lights? Or instead of a strobe like flash, use oscillating levels of light that seem to pulse. Use of lights could also act as a visual indicator to give a player directions to the area of conflict or the line & arrow Way Point path along the surface of the floor with a color indicating that the area is under attack. Hopefully that would meet the goals of informing and atmosphere without giving any players a strobe headache from the slide show affect of flicking the lights on and off.

The flashing lights should vary in their flashing depending on how close the RT is to going down. The first stage would look like your lights do when somebody starts the vacumm and the lights flicker and dim a bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws2BWszl7iQ

The second stage should have some start going black and the others under strain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe9-iBKHbk0...feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G-SyfyznjY...feature=related

The final stage (nearing RT destruction) should have red emergency lighting come up and most lights out or flashing wildly. Once destroyed the room only has red emergency lighting. Perfect entrance for the D.I. to come rolling in...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvNhEeU1jCA...feature=related

This post has been edited by aeroripper: Apr 16 2009, 10:38 PM

[FrostFire626]

Instead of having multiple commanders there could be a command hierarchy structure. There have been many comments on how having multiple commanders would give opportunity to massive griefing possibilities. There would be one commander, who retains absolute control over what goes on, but there could be sub-commanders (I'm not sure what the preferred military terms would be, lieutenants?) who would serve as support to the commander in micro-managing.

I'm still a hardcore advocate of the 1-commander solution. Call me elitist, but good commanders never needed much help micromanaging (aside from monitoring fast minimap events). I'm extremely worried that my beloved Commander feature is being watered down to please the masses.

I believe that there are alternative (preferable) methods of streamlining a commanders responsibilities. These include things like:

1) have much more obvious minimap alarms/alerts
2) the ability for marines to carry one heal over time medpack (only while not under attack, WoW style)
3) allow marines to heal each other with their medpack
4) make it possible to queue tech upgrades, where the Comm will be prompted to approve the next tech upon completion

Again, an (understandable) absence of details continues to feed my paranoia. I just hope that the multiple commander concept isn't written in stone yet.

the 1998 remake of Battlezone.

P.S. I LOVED Battlezone! The game was an order of magnitude better than recent hits (L4D -_- zzzz).

[MasterPTG]

KFS:
What you describe is basically a narrowing and simplification of the map (at least, for this specific example).

Will there be different sized maps for differing numbers of players? Or are we to expect a max of two 'fronts' for official maps?

For example, ns_metal can easily have 3-4 fronts. Marines could have PG's in two hives, no control over the center of the map, yet still be trying to push from one hive to the center hive, while still having aliens rush the base/other hives. This dynamic seems to be almost 'lost' with the new streamlined maps.

Also, if the rooms are going to grow, won't that inherently favor the marines (open spaces = marine domination, winding twisty corners = alien domination/advantage). Besides the reasons for blocking LoS stuff for mapping, it had the side benefit of providing higher lifeforms cover to hit-and-run. If you make the rooms larger with just simple L-turns, wouldn't that heavily favor marines?

[Laggasaurus]

Well after an exhausting read and dying a little inside, i've come round to the idea 'slightly'. I'm gonna start with referencing to KFDM's post since it was the last thing I bothered to read (sorry if I didn't recognise your name I skipped), you realise eclipse is the smallest map in NS and consequently marines have a very hard problem maintaining nodes against a fundamentally fast paced team, and yet your considering making the maps smaller and making it easier for aliens to cut off the marines supply of resources, it doesn't take too much analysing to see where thats gonna end up (read tjosan's comment about marine turtling). Secondly I can absolutely no logic in this comment 'Rooms will be a bit bigger (I suspect the RT rooms will grow a bit before all's said and done)' in a game thats ranged vs melee, this just conjures up images of the atrocties that are siege maps.

generally speaking as you move out from marine spawn you'll see similar elevation gradients in NS2 levels that were present in NS1.

For the love of god don't use lifts or elevators, or if you do fix the plethera of bugs and abuses associated with them first. Also:

'large tram tunnel as a primary connection'

Did someone say MMMMMMMMMMMMM BAST...

I'm also a little curious, by:

And, of course, adding those proper secondary connections to the level will also be very important.

do you mean there not in the map yet so that picture is minus secondary corridors? Because as it stands you may as well name the map ns_keyhole, yeh you know what I'm talking about .


Secondly, i'm not sure why you're forcing the marines to stick in packs as they pressure whilst at the same time making it easier to cripple and flank them. I have the horrible feeling this will ruin the fast paced nature of the game, (large maps = fast expansion, and for those sitting thinking 'fast paced? wtf is he talking about' go find a 3.2 competitive HLTV demo and hold down +showmap, although saying that make sure its not veil with flatline involved as they just loved turtling the hell out of power and nano the clinical b*st*rds). I get the feeling i'm slightly reiterating sherpa's point here but how are marines meant to push if they can lose everything if they don't turtle on choke points, without the game basically being TF2 in space?


Issue numero tres, am i jumping to conclusions in assuming that with the addition of an alien commander the gorge is now nothing more than a fat mobile med pack ? Since i'd always assumed they were the alien commanders just without the domineering title and the need to scream into your mic and SPAM CAPS to get your point across.


This may just be a harsh reaction to realising NS2 isn't going to be the game I hoped it'd be or maybe i'm just jumping to conclusions, but with every 'official' reply I read it felt like NS2 was losing the uniqueness that drew me to NS in the first place (and yes I do realise that NS1 was pretty much AvP and starcraft slapped together in one big happy fun mod, but still :/). I guess i always knew this was gonna happen, e.g. the removal of bhopping was a fairly big hint that they were moving away from the sharp skill curve based elements (just to double check I have read this somewhere right? not just imagining this?) which for me made the competitive side of things fun. And just out of curiosity have the devs actually considered things on a 6v6, competant players scale? Because I know there are a lot of us looking forward to one thing - competitive NS2 !

Hmm feel like i'm rambling slightly as its getting late and I can't really think coherently or remember half the things I was gonna write about, oh well i'm sure i'll remember tomorrow.

This post has been edited by Laggasaurus: Apr 17 2009, 02:02 AM