In the http://ansl.us league, team BiG has scrimmed against team Xensity and team SSJ. Every game played, results were fairly similar, marines lose, aliens win. We've played something like 12games, every round was won by the alien team.
Conclusion: Marines suck unless they are shotgun rushing, in a shotgun rush, marines have a 70% chance of winning, time to sg rush every single round in competitive play now, gg.
UN-NERF MARINES PLZ.
Full Version: Marines too weak?
Form what i can tell with the Alien vs Humans fights is its even its just the player skills that matter, plus rein's have been geting most of the buffs lately acroding to what i read.
it comes down to what each team does, and how well they place their teams.
IE rather be sulk leap with focus, then rein with shotty.
it comes down to what each team does, and how well they place their teams.
IE rather be sulk leap with focus, then rein with shotty.
"Balance issues" continue to be a talking point us NS players. I have settled on the opinion that NS is not really that unbalanced. In fact, if the marines play as a team and work together at all times they can defeat a good alien team (this is not statistically tested as your claims are, of course).
The feeling of unbalance arises from the extremely rapid change of prospects during the game. For example, marines can be working along well. Say they've capped res and one hive, getting upgrades, etc... Then, they decide to take on the second hive which by this point is going up quickly. They set up a PG, TF and some turrets in a nearby access to support the assault. They try to hold the position until they are strong enough/close enough to siege. Then some fades come along and take all that stuff down. . . The game is probably over -- aliens will now have 2 hives and its only a matter of time before the marines are eaten. This outcome DOES NOT mean that NS is unbalanced, only that there is a very tight set of constraints on a successful plan of action. If marines falter and don't regain their initiative quickly, they will never recover.
So, I feel it does come back to the skill of the comm and the team. In the case of the marines, these skills must be both collective (following orders, communicating and working together) AS WELL as individual (commander must have a great plan and skills to execute it). Aliens on the other hand don't need as many collective skills. A skillful individual fade player can effect the defeat discussed above. Anyway... thats my 2 cents.
The feeling of unbalance arises from the extremely rapid change of prospects during the game. For example, marines can be working along well. Say they've capped res and one hive, getting upgrades, etc... Then, they decide to take on the second hive which by this point is going up quickly. They set up a PG, TF and some turrets in a nearby access to support the assault. They try to hold the position until they are strong enough/close enough to siege. Then some fades come along and take all that stuff down. . . The game is probably over -- aliens will now have 2 hives and its only a matter of time before the marines are eaten. This outcome DOES NOT mean that NS is unbalanced, only that there is a very tight set of constraints on a successful plan of action. If marines falter and don't regain their initiative quickly, they will never recover.
So, I feel it does come back to the skill of the comm and the team. In the case of the marines, these skills must be both collective (following orders, communicating and working together) AS WELL as individual (commander must have a great plan and skills to execute it). Aliens on the other hand don't need as many collective skills. A skillful individual fade player can effect the defeat discussed above. Anyway... thats my 2 cents.
Balance doesn't exist in NS.
It's not to say that the balance is bad.
The issue is player skill. And while skills in upper level NS might be similar, in pubs, skill difference is so vast, you'll see players with 56-4 scores that generate tons of res for their team.
While maybe in those clan games, alien players are strong, in G4B2S or [BAD] 30 player servers, marines win nearly every game.
I believe the reason is as marines get stronger, they still do the same thing: aim, build stuff, etc. As aliens get stronger, they need to change form into... the FADE. And the fade's learning curve is off the roof, thanks to blink. And while marines keep their upgrades, aliens however, lose their form once they die.
You have to look at it as, "Did the alien team lose because they simply weren't good?" or "Did the alien team lose because they did not know how to fade well?"
It's not to say that the balance is bad.
The issue is player skill. And while skills in upper level NS might be similar, in pubs, skill difference is so vast, you'll see players with 56-4 scores that generate tons of res for their team.
While maybe in those clan games, alien players are strong, in G4B2S or [BAD] 30 player servers, marines win nearly every game.
I believe the reason is as marines get stronger, they still do the same thing: aim, build stuff, etc. As aliens get stronger, they need to change form into... the FADE. And the fade's learning curve is off the roof, thanks to blink. And while marines keep their upgrades, aliens however, lose their form once they die.
You have to look at it as, "Did the alien team lose because they simply weren't good?" or "Did the alien team lose because they did not know how to fade well?"
QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Nov 5 2006, 10:42 PM) [snapback]1573755[/snapback]
Balance doesn't exist in NS.
It's not to say that the balance is bad.
The issue is player skill. And while skills in upper level NS might be similar, in pubs, skill difference is so vast, you'll see players with 56-4 scores that generate tons of res for their team.
While maybe in those clan games, alien players are strong, in G4B2S or [BAD] 30 player servers, marines win nearly every game.
I believe the reason is as marines get stronger, they still do the same thing: aim, build stuff, etc. As aliens get stronger, they need to change form into... the FADE. And the fade's learning curve is off the roof, thanks to blink. And while marines keep their upgrades, aliens however, lose their form once they die.
You have to look at it as, "Did the alien team lose because they simply weren't good?" or "Did the alien team lose because they did not know how to fade well?"
I agree. But by what you are saying, NS really is balanced. And my experience affirms this. I especially agree about fade. I've been a regular pubber since 1.04, and I only really started to learn to fade in 3.0 (of course, thats when I started playing more too).
You can argue this forever and I do tend to think NS is fairly balanced, but I think the problem, at least on public servers, is the distribution between skill and resources.
What I mean by that is, a really skilled fade can save his resources and choose to become a fade on his own (and usually convince other players to cap res/build hives), where as a really skilled marine can't do much unless the comm properly equips him. The problem is, equipment doesn't always go to the best suited/most skilled marine unless the comm specifically drops it on a player, and often players with no idea what they're doing will end up with a JP & HMG or whatever. In that sense, a really skilled fade can choose himself and win a round for the aliens, but it takes the combination of a really skilled comm and marine to do the same for the marines.
Put another way, the aliens (to an extent) can choose what they're best at, and the marines have to fight for it.
What I mean by that is, a really skilled fade can save his resources and choose to become a fade on his own (and usually convince other players to cap res/build hives), where as a really skilled marine can't do much unless the comm properly equips him. The problem is, equipment doesn't always go to the best suited/most skilled marine unless the comm specifically drops it on a player, and often players with no idea what they're doing will end up with a JP & HMG or whatever. In that sense, a really skilled fade can choose himself and win a round for the aliens, but it takes the combination of a really skilled comm and marine to do the same for the marines.
Put another way, the aliens (to an extent) can choose what they're best at, and the marines have to fight for it.
In my opinion, NS is still unbalanced slightly. Not by a lot but only slightly. And no doubt through the next few versions, we will slowly get there. It is currently leaning slightly towards aliens in my opinion. but then again, maybe people favour the kharaa more and thus have higher skill level there. It really is hard to judge because both teams are dramatically different and would be difficult to compare skill levels in both team. How would u compare a good fade to a good rine? the skill level needed in both would be different.
I don't think you've read my post thoroughly, we've played 12 games, every game has been won by aliens. The whole competitive NS community agrees that aliens are stronger than marines, unless marines are shotgun rushing.
The reason why aliens fare so badly in large games is because of resource distribution. The res you get from a node gets split up among all those players on the server, and it'd take a player significantly longer to fade in a large game, while marines are free to tech up. Also, pub skulks/lerks/fades are not cool, go play CO to learn or go gorge ftw.
The reason why aliens fare so badly in large games is because of resource distribution. The res you get from a node gets split up among all those players on the server, and it'd take a player significantly longer to fade in a large game, while marines are free to tech up. Also, pub skulks/lerks/fades are not cool, go play CO to learn or go gorge ftw.
QUOTE(BiG-Serge @ Nov 5 2006, 02:17 PM) [snapback]1573679[/snapback]
Conclusion: Marines suck unless they are shotgun rushing, in a shotgun rush, marines have a 70% chance of winning, time to sg rush every single round in competitive play now, gg.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
shotgun rushes are not the only viable method to winning. It might work if u got a pretty good team with decent shots. But if the aliens are expecting a shotgun rush, they can find ways to counter it. Now if you want to shotgun rush, it takes up a lot of res in the starting game, like using lerks or something. if it fails, ur pretty much screwed for the rest of the game because u have little res left to tech up.
and are talking about pub play or comptetitive play here? competitive play is a 6 vs 6 isnt it? 6 aliens on a team makes for some pretty decent res per alien.
big serge, u losing 12 games in a row. couldnt it mean that your team was on a lower skill level for that day or maybe it was just the other team were more inclined to kharaa and your team was less inclined to marines?
and are talking about pub play or comptetitive play here? competitive play is a 6 vs 6 isnt it? 6 aliens on a team makes for some pretty decent res per alien.
big serge, u losing 12 games in a row. couldnt it mean that your team was on a lower skill level for that day or maybe it was just the other team were more inclined to kharaa and your team was less inclined to marines?
AIM and teamwork.
QUOTE(Lofung @ Nov 6 2006, 12:44 AM) [snapback]1573853[/snapback]
AIM and teamwork.
easyier said then done =]
I don't know what the bloody hell you guys are on about. In Australia the game is MARINE BIASED. And we are not horrible at NS.
Meh, NS and imbalances.
Ok lets look at the current start game situation:
If a marine can aim "aimbotlike" he is capable of killing 4 skulks with a single mag, with ease. Then another 2 with the pistol. Makes 6 skulks, or the whole alien team.
So in order to kill a marine as a skulks in a 1 on 1 you are forced to ambush, or attack with a movement advantage (eg bhop) AND you depend heavily on the marine not killing you, before you can reach him.
This gives marines a huge advantage during the initial phase of a game: They, in theory, control the flow of the game, cause they have the advantage of initiative.
Now we throw in the fact, that humans cannot aim aimbotlike. So we have anything from a person, who needs a full lmg mag to kill a skulk, up to a good player, who kills an average of 3 skulks witheout reloading.
So the better people overall are getting, the more marines should dominate the beginning of a game.
Once the first fade shows up we have as usually 2 totally diffrent situations again: On a server, full with good players killing the fade is usually a priority, but killing the 2nd hive still stays the main goal most of the time, simply because a good 2nd hive fade can overpower la rines rather easily.
On a mixed pub, a good fade will simply cut through the rine team like a hot knife through butter, wereas a bad fade will die either early, or wont make any kills. Anyhow, a waste of 50 res.
Point 1: NS heavily depends on players beeing around the same skill-level.
Then there are lots of turning points in a game, like:
Killing the 2nd hive.
Killing the early fade.
Taking down the AM.
Rushing MS in order to stop a hive siege.
Taking out the rines siege at 2nd hive.
are just a few examples, but they have all one thing incommen: They all cose time and res for the enemy team. The 2 main ressources of NS, beside player skill.
Point2: Who is winning can completely change within 20 seconds
Then we have the current res system.
The more players, the less income pers second, per alien, meaing the 2nd hive or fades will get delayed alot. This used to be even worse and got adjusted in 3.1 /me thinks but it still has heavy impact. Everyone who has played with 16 or more players will shurely remeber the frustarting situation, when you loose at 7-8 minutes and had 3 players with around 48 res
Point3: The number of players doesnt only affect gameplay, it also affects: "Which team will win!"
Then you have alot of disturbing factors, like bogus rates, that dont qualify as hacks, but make killing skulks extremely hard. And of course the improved configs and textures, that make hiding in the dark useless. And even witheout replacing textures, i am shure that at least 60% of all NS players are using "eye burning" gamma values in order to lighten up those dark corners.
Point4: Winning is important to most, leading to stacking and looking for an advantage by modifying game paramteres in order to gain advantages over others. This of course causes imbalances.
Ok lets look at the current start game situation:
If a marine can aim "aimbotlike" he is capable of killing 4 skulks with a single mag, with ease. Then another 2 with the pistol. Makes 6 skulks, or the whole alien team.
So in order to kill a marine as a skulks in a 1 on 1 you are forced to ambush, or attack with a movement advantage (eg bhop) AND you depend heavily on the marine not killing you, before you can reach him.
This gives marines a huge advantage during the initial phase of a game: They, in theory, control the flow of the game, cause they have the advantage of initiative.
Now we throw in the fact, that humans cannot aim aimbotlike. So we have anything from a person, who needs a full lmg mag to kill a skulk, up to a good player, who kills an average of 3 skulks witheout reloading.
So the better people overall are getting, the more marines should dominate the beginning of a game.
Once the first fade shows up we have as usually 2 totally diffrent situations again: On a server, full with good players killing the fade is usually a priority, but killing the 2nd hive still stays the main goal most of the time, simply because a good 2nd hive fade can overpower la rines rather easily.
On a mixed pub, a good fade will simply cut through the rine team like a hot knife through butter, wereas a bad fade will die either early, or wont make any kills. Anyhow, a waste of 50 res.
Point 1: NS heavily depends on players beeing around the same skill-level.
Then there are lots of turning points in a game, like:
Killing the 2nd hive.
Killing the early fade.
Taking down the AM.
Rushing MS in order to stop a hive siege.
Taking out the rines siege at 2nd hive.
are just a few examples, but they have all one thing incommen: They all cose time and res for the enemy team. The 2 main ressources of NS, beside player skill.
Point2: Who is winning can completely change within 20 seconds
Then we have the current res system.
The more players, the less income pers second, per alien, meaing the 2nd hive or fades will get delayed alot. This used to be even worse and got adjusted in 3.1 /me thinks but it still has heavy impact. Everyone who has played with 16 or more players will shurely remeber the frustarting situation, when you loose at 7-8 minutes and had 3 players with around 48 res
Point3: The number of players doesnt only affect gameplay, it also affects: "Which team will win!"
Then you have alot of disturbing factors, like bogus rates, that dont qualify as hacks, but make killing skulks extremely hard. And of course the improved configs and textures, that make hiding in the dark useless. And even witheout replacing textures, i am shure that at least 60% of all NS players are using "eye burning" gamma values in order to lighten up those dark corners.
Point4: Winning is important to most, leading to stacking and looking for an advantage by modifying game paramteres in order to gain advantages over others. This of course causes imbalances.
That's the thing... Weather the game is fully balanced or not, most sources I've heard, have always said that in the long run, the wins are split almost 50-50.
Considering that, I assume, most of those logged wins are from the competitive scene... I don't think it's just skill stack.
Though, I would say it's much easier to play marines than aliens, especially since no one I've seen has made a good Marine team bot, so training is not possible out of a real game or CO.
I've been on both sides... and I can appriciate the skill that goes into controlling the aliens... but I hate playing against those who're good at fading... Any other lifeform is decent.
(Lifeform: HP/AP (Effective HP @ Hive1/2/3 [Moot in the next version]) Bullets to kill [ignoring regen & @ W3]
Skulk: 70/10 (90/95/100) P: 4/4/4 LMG: 7/8/8 SG: "1/1/1" HMG: 4/4/4 GL: 1/1/1
Gorge: 150/50 (250/275/300) P: 10/11/12 LMG: 20/22/24 SG: "2/2/2" HMG: 10/11/12 GL: 2/2/2
Lerk: 125/30 (185/200/215) P: 8/8/9 LMG: 15/16/17 SG: "1/1/1" HMG: 8/8/9 GL: 2/2/2
Fade: 300/150 (600/675/750) P: 24/26/29 LMG: 47/52/58 SG: "3/4/4" HMG: 24/26/29 GL: 4/5/5
Onos: 700/600 (1900/2200/2500) P: 74/85/97 LMG: 147/170/193 SG: "9/10/12" HMG: 74/85/97 GL: 12/14/16
This of course ignores CoF, (especially in the SG's case...) Player accuracy, alien upgrades, and doesn't even touch on TtK.
But I think it shows just how fragile the aliens technically are. Even a base Hive 3 onos technically takes less than an HMG clip to kill... However, we all know that to be false due to at least innate regen, with the complicating factors of DC upgrades.
[To illustrate: HMG inflicts 200 points of damage per second, assuming full hit. Onos regain 14 HP during that same time. To rip through the innitial HP, it would take a little less than 12.5 seconds at H3, but during that time it would have regained 175 HP, prolonging it's life a little. In the case of Regen it would gain back 393.75 HP. Cara gives it an additional 600 effective HP, giving an extra 3 seconds and thusly 217 HP in regen.]
Faskilla posted while I was pulling the numbers for this.
Edit: My TtK numbers were severely off...
Considering that, I assume, most of those logged wins are from the competitive scene... I don't think it's just skill stack.
Though, I would say it's much easier to play marines than aliens, especially since no one I've seen has made a good Marine team bot, so training is not possible out of a real game or CO.
I've been on both sides... and I can appriciate the skill that goes into controlling the aliens... but I hate playing against those who're good at fading... Any other lifeform is decent.
(Lifeform: HP/AP (Effective HP @ Hive1/2/3 [Moot in the next version]) Bullets to kill [ignoring regen & @ W3]
Skulk: 70/10 (90/95/100) P: 4/4/4 LMG: 7/8/8 SG: "1/1/1" HMG: 4/4/4 GL: 1/1/1
Gorge: 150/50 (250/275/300) P: 10/11/12 LMG: 20/22/24 SG: "2/2/2" HMG: 10/11/12 GL: 2/2/2
Lerk: 125/30 (185/200/215) P: 8/8/9 LMG: 15/16/17 SG: "1/1/1" HMG: 8/8/9 GL: 2/2/2
Fade: 300/150 (600/675/750) P: 24/26/29 LMG: 47/52/58 SG: "3/4/4" HMG: 24/26/29 GL: 4/5/5
Onos: 700/600 (1900/2200/2500) P: 74/85/97 LMG: 147/170/193 SG: "9/10/12" HMG: 74/85/97 GL: 12/14/16
This of course ignores CoF, (especially in the SG's case...) Player accuracy, alien upgrades, and doesn't even touch on TtK.
But I think it shows just how fragile the aliens technically are. Even a base Hive 3 onos technically takes less than an HMG clip to kill... However, we all know that to be false due to at least innate regen, with the complicating factors of DC upgrades.
[To illustrate: HMG inflicts 200 points of damage per second, assuming full hit. Onos regain 14 HP during that same time. To rip through the innitial HP, it would take a little less than 12.5 seconds at H3, but during that time it would have regained 175 HP, prolonging it's life a little. In the case of Regen it would gain back 393.75 HP. Cara gives it an additional 600 effective HP, giving an extra 3 seconds and thusly 217 HP in regen.]
Faskilla posted while I was pulling the numbers for this.
Edit: My TtK numbers were severely off...
QUOTE(BadMouth @ Nov 6 2006, 05:35 AM) [snapback]1573848[/snapback]
big serge, u losing 12 games in a row.
Uh, we didn't. You know you rotate teams after every round, right? And every alien win would put us at 6-6.
People who can kill 3 skulks per clip are either playing against bots or are aimbotting, also, I've never seen a skulk come at a marine alone, also, I haven't seen that many marines walking out alone.
SSJ and BiG are evenly matched when we don't have PoNeH playing, our strategies include teamwork and good aim on both sides (compared to other open league clans, it's hacks). If it was balanced, we'd have 6-6, but we'd have 3 marine wins each, at least 1 worst case scenario.
We definitely need to improve the little things as marines, that would at least grant us some marine wins against decent teams, but it doesn't change the fact that it's too hard to win as marine.
Oh yeah, in small games the aliens can build up steam very quickly... And once the aliens are up to speed, assuming equal skill, it's very easy for them to deny the marines territory and thusly win.
(I used to be able to kill three, occasionally even four skulks per clip... and at one point managed a 45 min lifespan waaaaay back when with a shotty. I have never touched a single optional setting in game, I play super freaking vanillia. So it's not just aimbots.)
There're maps that are pretty heavy for one side over the other... So, what were you guys playing on those games. (I assume it was two games per map...)
(I used to be able to kill three, occasionally even four skulks per clip... and at one point managed a 45 min lifespan waaaaay back when with a shotty. I have never touched a single optional setting in game, I play super freaking vanillia. So it's not just aimbots.)
There're maps that are pretty heavy for one side over the other... So, what were you guys playing on those games. (I assume it was two games per map...)
I'd love to see some hltv demos right now 
Myeh from my experience the game is alien biased most of the time, mostly because while aliens have the luxury of a second or even third chance, if marines fail once in trying to complete one objective they're usually screwed. Same used to be true but the other way around, pre-3.0 without free skulk upgrades etc.
Now this doesnt really mean marines are too weak though, it's more complex than that.
Now this doesnt really mean marines are too weak though, it's more complex than that.
I think the fade is imba, not so much towards the marines, i mean in comparison to other lifeforms.
A good fade needs nearly no teamwork to get kills while other lifeforms rely on their teammates much more. Cara fades have no problem blinking in a marine ambush with 3 shotties, delivering a hit and blinking out. Given all marines hit him 2 times, the fade still would be alive... And i always thought sgs are a counter to fades.
A good fade needs nearly no teamwork to get kills while other lifeforms rely on their teammates much more. Cara fades have no problem blinking in a marine ambush with 3 shotties, delivering a hit and blinking out. Given all marines hit him 2 times, the fade still would be alive... And i always thought sgs are a counter to fades.
Depends where you look at it from.
From a competitive point of view, marines need near-perfection to win. Even previously fatal alien mistakes such as an early lerk death or fade death doesn't mean the aliens won't win.
From a public view, e.g. 9v9 upwards, marines can't really lose because structure hitpoints don't scale. PG + beacon rush = hive down.
From a competitive point of view, marines need near-perfection to win. Even previously fatal alien mistakes such as an early lerk death or fade death doesn't mean the aliens won't win.
From a public view, e.g. 9v9 upwards, marines can't really lose because structure hitpoints don't scale. PG + beacon rush = hive down.
QUOTE(Faskalia @ Nov 6 2006, 05:44 AM) [snapback]1573903[/snapback]
Point 1: NS heavily depends on players beeing around the same skill-level.
Point2: Who is winning can completely change within 20 seconds
Point3: The number of players doesnt only affect gameplay, it also affects: "Which team will win!"
Point4: Winning is important to most, leading to stacking and looking for an advantage by modifying game paramteres in order to gain advantages over others. This of course causes imbalances.
Clear enough. I agree that these are all important to the perception of balance and fairness.
I'd also like to refute the claim that aim is more important than teamwork. If marines move together and watch each other's backs while others build then your team can succeed overall without superb aim skills.
What I like about NS is that the creators have kept to their original resource structure: Marines on the one hand have a completely hierarchical structure -- one person controls all the res and decisions. Aliens on the other hand are distributed -- each player controls a share of the res. Both perspectives have their advantages and disadvantages.
QUOTE(stooopid @ Nov 6 2006, 11:27 AM) [snapback]1573974[/snapback]
I'd also like to refute the claim that aim is more important than teamwork. If marines move together and watch each other's backs while others build then your team can succeed overall without superb aim skills.
but there are times in the game when building is not enough, you have to start shooting things. and if you cannot keep that fade away from yourself or your teammates when you're inside a building hive it's pretty much gg, go back to ns:combat.
as for balance, it's true that marines are harder to win with. are they then weaker? no, if played right. you need a good comm and a good team for it, but hey this is a video game. what would you not do to be the best? just keep practicing as a solid group against good alien teams and you'll get a hang of the game in no time.
QUOTE(Bacillus @ Nov 6 2006, 10:03 AM) [snapback]1573947[/snapback]
I'd love to see some hltv demos right now
Word.
fail to mention what map your playing - could be one of the reasons this happens
QUOTE
I'd also like to refute the claim that aim is more important than teamwork. If marines move together and watch each other's backs while others build then your team can succeed overall without superb aim skills.
This can be argued.
I've played countless games where fades and lerks have taken down packs of marines solo. And I've also had games where one marine got several SG shots and did the most damage to the fade.
But really, what is marine teamwork?
Do you have the alien teamwork like lerks umbraing, skulks parasiting or gorges healing? No. You just have more guys that aim at the same thing as you are.
So it comes down to a pack of marines that can't aim, or a few that can aim well and rambo. The larger pack ends up as more RFK for aliens, while the pack of few marines can nail a pg to the second hive.
tanith and veil
We lost because killing one node for pressure was difficult enough, after it was down usually pressure went DEAD. Also, we couldn't get phase gates up at second hive by time.
Aim is just as important as teamwork, if you can't dish out enough damage to 4 skulks coming at a group of 3 marines, you're bound to lose a marine or two, that makes you screwed for the rest of the game. And that's exactly why NS is imbalanced, too much dependence on pressure team and they only get 1 shot.
We lost because killing one node for pressure was difficult enough, after it was down usually pressure went DEAD. Also, we couldn't get phase gates up at second hive by time.
Aim is just as important as teamwork, if you can't dish out enough damage to 4 skulks coming at a group of 3 marines, you're bound to lose a marine or two, that makes you screwed for the rest of the game. And that's exactly why NS is imbalanced, too much dependence on pressure team and they only get 1 shot.
I want to see the demo of big beating xen's marines. I really want to see it.
QUOTE(BiG-Serge @ Nov 5 2006, 02:17 PM) [snapback]1573679[/snapback]
In the http://ansl.us league, team BiG has scrimmed against team Xensity and team SSJ. Every game played, results were fairly similar, marines lose, aliens win. We've played something like 12games, every round was won by the alien team.
Conclusion: Marines suck unless they are shotgun rushing, in a shotgun rush, marines have a 70% chance of winning, time to sg rush every single round in competitive play now, gg.
UN-NERF MARINES PLZ.
Don't say marines are unbalanced until your marine team is actually any good. Your marine round is aaaaawful. So many mistakes and terrible aim. Me as
> Xen.
QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 6 2006, 11:31 AM) [snapback]1573907[/snapback]
Even a base Hive 3 onos technically takes less than an HMG clip to kill...
Edit: My TtK numbers were severely off...
lol just a bit
QUOTE(MrMakaveli @ Nov 7 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1574234[/snapback]
Don't say marines are unbalanced until your marine team is actually any good. Your marine round is aaaaawful. So many mistakes and terrible aim. Me as > Xen.
> Xen.=] I didn't count the 2 xen rounds toward the 12games played.
Our marine round was only awful when we only had ###### players on, shoester, grimlin and jason mog are very bad. Good players joined up later, and my comm got unrusty.
At the competive level marines are harder to play than aliens, thus why marines lose more. When a team with more experiance and skill faces a team with less, the team with less almost always has a better chance of pulling an upset on aliens compared to marines. Here is why:
- It takes less "skilled" players to win on aliens. Aliens can win with 2 fades and a lerk doing all the combat in the game, sometimes they can even get by on 1 fade depending on who the marines are, everyone else is support (gorgeing, killing nodes) I'm not saying teams dont have 6 skilled alien players, just that you dont need 6.
- Mistakes. Aliens can recover from mistakes A LOT easier than marines can. Ive seen a lot of second hives die and aliens still come back and win. If marines make an active push on the second hive (spending res) and fail, most of the time that is game over unless the aliens didnt hit nodes. Possable reasons: the res game. Aliens can limp along at 1-2 RT, especially if they had more nodes up at one point. Marines need 4+ (6 if your teaching a lot) to just keep up. Also when aliens lose a second hive but still have lifeforms up they can still effectively fight the marines unless proto is up(and it wont be unless its a jp rush).
- More on the res game. An alien RT is much more powerful than a marine RT. Aliens can live on a huge boost of res than save it up for emergency use (ie loseing your RT early game.) If aliens ever control more than 3 RT they are just swimming in res, even if marines kill the RT and bring them down to 1 again a smart gorge will have enough stored up res to just go recap. Once aliens get going on the res game they are very hard to break. Marines need a consant flow of res to keep going, if they get down to 1-2 nodes they HAVE to recap or they will lose.
- The early game. So many things can go wrong for marines in the early game. Cappers die, Pressure dies, base dies, Drfurrious jumps out. Marines have to out kill the aliens by a large margin in the early game or they are in huge trouble. Even with getting more kills, make that one mistake and pressure team is dead. Most marine pressure teams are 3 marines(sometimes 4.) Aliens need 3 kills to stop the early presssure. Marines need X many kills there X is the amount of aliens that attack the pressure team. Most of the time X is a double digit number.
I could prob drone on about this more but I think you get the idea.
- It takes less "skilled" players to win on aliens. Aliens can win with 2 fades and a lerk doing all the combat in the game, sometimes they can even get by on 1 fade depending on who the marines are, everyone else is support (gorgeing, killing nodes) I'm not saying teams dont have 6 skilled alien players, just that you dont need 6.
- Mistakes. Aliens can recover from mistakes A LOT easier than marines can. Ive seen a lot of second hives die and aliens still come back and win. If marines make an active push on the second hive (spending res) and fail, most of the time that is game over unless the aliens didnt hit nodes. Possable reasons: the res game. Aliens can limp along at 1-2 RT, especially if they had more nodes up at one point. Marines need 4+ (6 if your teaching a lot) to just keep up. Also when aliens lose a second hive but still have lifeforms up they can still effectively fight the marines unless proto is up(and it wont be unless its a jp rush).
- More on the res game. An alien RT is much more powerful than a marine RT. Aliens can live on a huge boost of res than save it up for emergency use (ie loseing your RT early game.) If aliens ever control more than 3 RT they are just swimming in res, even if marines kill the RT and bring them down to 1 again a smart gorge will have enough stored up res to just go recap. Once aliens get going on the res game they are very hard to break. Marines need a consant flow of res to keep going, if they get down to 1-2 nodes they HAVE to recap or they will lose.
- The early game. So many things can go wrong for marines in the early game. Cappers die, Pressure dies, base dies, Drfurrious jumps out. Marines have to out kill the aliens by a large margin in the early game or they are in huge trouble. Even with getting more kills, make that one mistake and pressure team is dead. Most marine pressure teams are 3 marines(sometimes 4.) Aliens need 3 kills to stop the early presssure. Marines need X many kills there X is the amount of aliens that attack the pressure team. Most of the time X is a double digit number.
I could prob drone on about this more but I think you get the idea.
The single biggest issue with 'balance', and this has been going on for as long as i have been a part of the NS community, is that it is subjective..
You can never 'prove' balance. You can prove unbalance, but not the other way around.
NS IS balanced, as close to as perfectly as it can be, and it has been balanced since the Major changes just after 2.0.
How can i say this??
Well the consties had great fun along with PT's on this and it was generally agreed, skill difference's aside, that NS is very well balanced for teams with around 8-9 players each.
Any lower, and the Alien res count works too much in their favour, giving them a superior rate of res advantage over the Marines.
When you get higher than that number of players the Alien resource rate drops too low and the marines have the res tech advantage.
So the solution is to either balance the game for clanners at 6v6 or leave it as it is and keep it balanced for casual gamers.
We could always change the clan match sizes to 8v8 to promote more balance..
Now there's an idea....
You can never 'prove' balance. You can prove unbalance, but not the other way around.
NS IS balanced, as close to as perfectly as it can be, and it has been balanced since the Major changes just after 2.0.
How can i say this??
Well the consties had great fun along with PT's on this and it was generally agreed, skill difference's aside, that NS is very well balanced for teams with around 8-9 players each.
Any lower, and the Alien res count works too much in their favour, giving them a superior rate of res advantage over the Marines.
When you get higher than that number of players the Alien resource rate drops too low and the marines have the res tech advantage.
So the solution is to either balance the game for clanners at 6v6 or leave it as it is and keep it balanced for casual gamers.
We could always change the clan match sizes to 8v8 to promote more balance..
Now there's an idea....
If marines are underpowered, how come players like Nadagast and Mustang could roll half the alien team w/o breaking a sweat?
QUOTE(Soul_Rider @ Nov 7 2006, 06:32 PM) [snapback]1574404[/snapback]
We could always change the clan match sizes to 8v8 to promote more balance..
Now there's an idea....
Now there's an idea....
The NS competitive player base isn't that big.
Also, mustang is the best player in NS, I don't know what you're talking about, he's the exception.
So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED?
QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Nov 7 2006, 08:04 PM) [snapback]1574428[/snapback]
So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED?
If that's the case, we have way too many bad marine teams.
QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Nov 7 2006, 03:04 PM) [snapback]1574428[/snapback]
So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED?
Marines are fine atm. Just learn how to use them well.
FYI
Jmms is tooo good on marines.
Yes, marines can win, and yes you can have a player on marines donimate the game, but a player can also donimate on aliens too. The case is in competive play you can get by with 3 alien players that do most of the combat, on marines everyone has to pull there weigtht more, plus you need a skilled commander.
Back when terror was around the only time we won a round or came close to winning a round vs them was when we( cX) was playing aliens.
On every team I have been on when we play a lesser skilled team and lose a round it was always the marine round. I can think of only a few marine tie games ive played, and those were mostly on marine based maps.
The game is balanced for pub play. (too many varables to balance anyway but its close enough)
Back when terror was around the only time we won a round or came close to winning a round vs them was when we( cX) was playing aliens.
On every team I have been on when we play a lesser skilled team and lose a round it was always the marine round. I can think of only a few marine tie games ive played, and those were mostly on marine based maps.
The game is balanced for pub play. (too many varables to balance anyway but its close enough)
QUOTE(BiG-Serge @ Nov 7 2006, 02:10 PM) [snapback]1574429[/snapback]
If that's the case, we have way too many bad marine teams.
omgnoway!!!1
Like most caleaguers already know, ESP hacks and aimbotting make you win Mr. ex anti-hack admin.
QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Nov 7 2006, 03:04 PM) [snapback]1574428[/snapback]
So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED?
Well yeah, if it is a high-skilled clan vs high-skilled clan marines should win, because they are naturally better. If it low-skill vs low-skill aliens should win because aliens are better when marines have poor teamwork or aim.
QUOTE(LazyEye @ Nov 7 2006, 01:01 PM) [snapback]1574449[/snapback]
The game is balanced for pub play. (too many varables to balance anyway but its close enough)
Yea, that's why we see scores like 36-5 versus 11-18 all the time.
Games with relatively same-skilled people are the best, I'm sure we all agree. But the design of NS, or more specifically, RFK extends the skill gap between a good and average player.
I don't know where this magical idea that NS is balanced comes from, but in pub play, it certainly isn't. Marines is either aim well or die, something good players show very clearly. A team of average players will normally get massacred by skulks. But good players can easily walk into hive 2 and start locking it early in the game.
So what I'd like to see is NS actively doing something about the large gaps in skill in games rather than saying, "oh well". One option is making the game easier. For instance, you have a relatively no-skill job like building a RT, something everyone can do. I'm not saying anything specific, but making things easier will lower skill gaps.
QUOTE(LazyEye @ Nov 7 2006, 10:10 AM) [snapback]1574394[/snapback]
- The early game. So many things can go wrong for marines in the early game. Cappers die, Pressure dies, base dies, Drfurrious jumps out.
QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment.
QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Nov 8 2006, 09:27 AM) [snapback]1574674[/snapback]
QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment.
TY Underwhelmed, somebody from xensity told me that taking down alien nodes is unimportant if you have enough marine nodes.
good players + good comm
few left
QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment.
if you cap and tech like mad its not hard to rape 2 hive aliens
few left
QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Nov 8 2006, 04:27 AM) [snapback]1574674[/snapback]
QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment.
if you cap and tech like mad its not hard to rape 2 hive aliens
Hell, as a comm, my strat is to pull up Weapons tech as fast as possible. Armor really doesn't cross my mind as a comm, since it doesn't do too much. (Least for a while.)
Phase comes around the middle. And capping teams should head out both directions. Assuming nine players (counting myself) I'd have three go one way, three the other, and two stay in base to get it up and running, and then they go the third route if one exists.
Phase comes around the middle. And capping teams should head out both directions. Assuming nine players (counting myself) I'd have three go one way, three the other, and two stay in base to get it up and running, and then they go the third route if one exists.
QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 9 2006, 01:37 AM) [snapback]1575036[/snapback]
Hell, as a comm, my strat is to pull up Weapons tech as fast as possible. Armor really doesn't cross my mind as a comm, since it doesn't do too much. (Least for a while.)
Phase comes around the middle. And capping teams should head out both directions. Assuming nine players (counting myself) I'd have three go one way, three the other, and two stay in base to get it up and running, and then they go the third route if one exists.
Doesn't do too much huh? 1 parasite on a marine without armor 1 will take away that 3rd extra bite, and that marine might as well have no armor at all. Armor 1 fixes that, so it takes many more parasites to take that 3rd bite away that it's not worth it.
Be that way, didn't mean I put it off until I've gotten weapons three, it's just not the first upgrade I go for.I usually get it between phase and weapons two, and then weather I keep with my original plan (max killing potential) or get them additional armor depends on which I feel is more worth the time and res.
Like most metagame thoughts, they only prove viable so long into the game.
A1 makes a bigger difference than W1 during ambushes if marines can aim fine, you can fire off more than one bullet during the pause between 2nd and 3rd bite. All W1 does is cancel innate regen.
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