This is to make the game more fun and more interesting in tourney mode. The random aspect of the hives right now is a huge detriment to the success of the alien team. It allows greater teamwork in clan games. It helps it so mappers can see what hives are crappier than the rest. It makes it so games aren't dependant on a bad luck of the hive draw.

Some common objections:

- "But aliens would choose the same hive every time."

No they wouldn't. It's not always best or smart to land with the middle hive. Furthermore choosing different hives changes the marine team's strategy as well so thinking of different hives can still throw them off if they think that aliens will simply go for the same hive every time.

On top of this, many maps have at least 2 good hives. So there is still plenty of choice involved but much less frustration when dealt the crappy hive.

- "The games would get stale."

This doesn't even make sense, however, I believe it's saying that since there is obviously a good hive in every map teams would just pick that one over and over again. Games would just involve teams picking the same chambers and same hive rooms.

The above logic is not true for several reasons. For starters, it assumes that there is only one good hive room. This is not true. Second, it assumes that every team is going to think the same about what hive room is best. This is not true. Third, it assumes that giving aliens more tactical diversity will make the game stale. This is not true.

- "A far better solution would be to balance the maps."

So why not have aliens get a random chamber at the start of the game too? Oh wait, but chambers aren't balanced! So just balance out all the chambers, and then we won't have that problem, right...?

If the maps were balanced, then it makes perfect sense to let teams choose their starting hive, since all the hives are balanced... so it does not matter what hive they pick at the start.

Additional problems with this line of logic is that it assumes random selection is good. More onto that in the next common objection:

- "Since random hives are random, there will be times when you get a good hive equal to the times you get a bad hive. Therefore it balances itself out."

Except, that there is no way to let things "balance out" because in clan games you only play a few matches to decide the superior team.
Random selection is never good in RTS or FPS games. Examples:

FPS example: Imagine if your LMG fired faster or slower at random times. This would mean sometimes you could gun down that lerk or fade in second less than you would normally be able to do it, and other times there will be a skulk who lives with 11 hp because your gun decided not to fire as fast.
One might say, "Huh this example is crAzY!" But, if I were to defend it, I'd just use the same logic we use for keeping random hives: "It makes the game more interesting" or "There will be times when your LMG fires faster and times when it fires slower, so it balances itself out." We could even go to say that aliens need that occasional LMG who has a slow ROF, or else skulks may never get kills!

But the real problem here is that it isn't fun when you can't control something in game. Nor is it balanced; statistically your LMG will fire at the same ROF over several clips. However, there will still be games when your LMG fires faster than it fires slower, therefore making you a better killer. It wouldn't be long before someone asks... "Would that fade have died if the LMG didn't fire as fast?" "Would that fade have died if the LMG fired a bit faster?" Questions of skill are removed from the window, which is what should reign in a game of FPS.
"Would that team have lost if they started with a better hive?"

RTS example: In RTS games, your starting base is usually randomized. From Warcraft 3 to Starcraft to Homeworld 2, your starting locale is random.
Therefore, in NS, the starting locale of the aliens can be random too, right? Since NS is an FPS/RTS, right?
Well, no, simply because your starting locale in any RTS game will not affect your upgrade path like it does with the aliens.
Furthermore, RTS maps are generally:
- Simple, 2D planes.
- Painstakingly symetrical, so no matter where you start you have the same resources, lay of the land, and expansions as your opponent.

The reason why all RTS maps are so bland is because of the random starting point. If players could choose where to start, then RTS maps could become a lot more varied. But because there is a random start (a bad thing) all maps must become simple, childish, lego worlds where everything looks and plays out the same for the sake of balance. Because this is what the competetive players want in RTS games, and so it is made that way. Way back in the day, people made RTS maps that were interesting to look at, but horrible to play because some starting locations were so much better than others. Starcraft is a prime example of this. Eventually the best maps in Starcraft became the simpliest ones, because they were most balanced (and therefore most fun to play).

NS is a 3D world, and to keep things fresh hives most look, feel, and ultimately be different from another. It therefore follows that the random hive model will never be able to meet the same principles of the RTS model. RTS games are made so that your starting locale does not matter; in NS it can be a winning or losing factor. The only real solution would be to make every hive room the same.





By any line of logical thought or reasoning, hives should be something the team chooses (by voting on) at the start of the game in tourney mode. There is no reason not to have it and players have been asking for this since 1.04.

It is time the next step for competetive play is taken...

well, as long as the maps are balanced (as you say) i see no problem in random hives

I'm pretty sure he said hives aren't balanced.

"On top of this, many maps have at least 2 good hives. So there is still plenty of choice involved but much less frustration when dealt the crappy hive."

If at any point he said "the hives are balanced" he was either talking from someone elses perspective or contradicting himself.

From what i got in his post i agree, hives should be choesable. It could create more involved tactics as he propably stated:

If you can pick certain hives you can pick chambers that differ from the norm to suit the hive and the tactics can be more involved.

Hives will never be truely balanced unless every map was made as a triangle with all hives equal distance apart and equal distance to the ms and any rt's.. which would just be boring and have no point in more than 1 map.

I've been agreeing with almost everything you said for a very long time now.

(vote yes to hive choosing in tournymode 1)

I agree with everything he said.

I would choose Waste on Tanith everytime.
Oh oh, and Pipeline on Veil.

...Maybe through this in the I/S forum too?

Pipeline is the strongest hive on veil right now tbh. But I would pick cargo so that it could be my second hive.

I kind of agree with NGE, but only on the idea that a chosen hive might compell map makers to fix the psilo's and the waste's of the world.

Non-random starting hive is not an option at the moment. This topic has been ongoing for three years, and the same conclusion is always reached. If there are map balance issues they should be solved in the maps, not the game rules.

As buggeh said in that other topic, why cant you chose what hive you DONT want?

Regardless. I&S ftw.

I would agree with both sides.

1. If the maps are balanced then this isnt a problem.

2. This would add alot of strats.



As of now, I have to pick this suggestion as the maps are not being updated.


Update the maps or add this.


How long has Waste hive Blown?
Forever?


Some games are not decided by a teams abilities but rather the "random starting hive"

God knows, I am very Alien biased, but this one is definitivly way to strong, mainly because the Alienteam in a Tourneymode 1 server is organized and people know where they have to do what at which point in the game.

It is to calculateable that a rush specialised team will try to slaughter the marines down in the first 5 minutes, or another team would take the best defendable hive and play lockdown into the other direction...

I say: NO to this one, but make the Hive not random at all, this means each game on the map is the starthive on the same position. Both sides can react better then what is currently...

This is a good idea for a plugin, to pick the hive, everyone would vote. I'm not sure if it being in the game would be good, unless all hives were balanced out more evenly.

Puzl, I dont know what problems you will face implementing this, but at least for tournament mode, I can see great advantages of picking your hive over the random. This is a GREAT idea, and I hope it gets more attention for tournament play.

i first thought someone posted another one of this idea


i'm have mixed feelings for this dea actually... though it has been discussed and denied numerous times before

for now i'll keep it open. i want to see what everyone thinks about it first

siege maps for the win

no seriously...if only for mp_tournamentmode 1
lets try it for the next version. A small (i guess) change. If it doesnt work out it gets changed back.

But actually...we didnt ever try it right? It was allways discussed up and down till it got locked. But never tried

Every hive has certain options that are stronger than they would be for other hives. Currently balance generally evolves around using similar tactics for each hive.

If you choose your hive u can be very specific in your tactics such as chamber placement and positions. All obvious stuff i know but while maps are not symetrical these advantages for certain hives will ALWAYS exist. While they exist why can they not be used to their full potential?

It would only make the game more interesting creating special 2 lerk tactics for certain hives etc. Also it would give teams with say no strong fade players a chance to adapt and use the strengths of the players they do have as they will KNOW which hive they can work with.

It is impossible to make all hives have the same balance attributes without making the maps symetrical! IMPOSSIBLE, certain vents, distances to rt's, other hives, the ms and key choke points will always differ!

easy one: fix down the hive start position, and this will never ever occur.
ok, it takes out some of the guessing work and such, but to hell with that,
it is just crap that you start in one round in feedwater and when you join the marines the next game the others start in engineroom! (ns_bast)

This should never ever occur, and I think it would be the best for ns, if the start location on the map is fix. but make it two entitys, so custom mapers can choose if they want random start locations or not, but fixed locations should be prefered.

many people state anyway that randomness lets them puke.

that would remove a lot of the versitility and make the game increase in boredom points by 12.

At the very least, aliens should be able to veto one hive in tournament mode. Powersilo on nothing comes to mind, as does mother on nancy.

Cool down.

personally i'd prefer a vote by players before the round starts:

it would keep the unknown for the marines and mean they have to still be diverse with their tactics (aliens can do suprise tactics)

if it was just enforced after both teams had said "ready", each player must choose the map and it went on a majority vote.. this would also rule out any chances of a player being AFK at the round start, then 2 seconds of beeps after the hive chosen.

Only problem is some people are slow and marines could have a long wait. I don't know how hard it would be to impliment this change but i think it would be bloody gorgeous.

Would it be possible to code an amx plugin that can do this?

of course that would be possible!

But would it ever make its way into a competition/tournament then?

I dont think so...

Leagues will play the game vanilla, they won't run AMX plugins or what not for matches/scrims. This feature needs to be built into the game for tourny mode, and it really doesn't need to be a vote, as most teams either have a leader, or will have been decided before hand.

Just have hives assigned a number from left to right (as they appear on the minimap), the alien team says "ready" in mm1, then they say "readyhive<1-4>" in mm2, a "notready" will cancel both. If hive is not readied, or "readyhive4" is typed, hive location is random.

CAL-ns is already using AMX mod on there servers for their SS plugin, So it should'nt be that big of a deal to run a mod for choosing a hive.

It would be possible to create a plugin to do this, although Metamod would be much preferred over AMXX.

Yeah, I don't want to see another poorly impliment plugin running on cal servers.

One thing

Map balance : this annoys me some of the maps have been in since 1.04 and they still arent "balanced" this goal is almost impossible to obtain there will always be a slight advantage No Matter what unless the maps where boxes or something etc. this is one reason why people dont make alot of maps for ns becuase of these balance problems.

Also This idea is pretty good I would like to see it implemented

What exactly is wrong with this being applied to public servers?

pubs can't coordinate anything usally, but it doesn't matter if it's with tournament mode

i believe the aliens hive should stay random, thats one of the main startout things of being an alien... being able to choose would be unclear advantage to the aliens... but i certainly see where your comming from