*edit* Another reply was added to a similar thread when I was writing this one, I understand the locking procedure if that reply doesn't count as a hijack.*

How many times have you selected redemption to attack a marine outpost or ms and select redemption since the res flow isn't all that great? Now, you start on attacking marine base and joe_nub doesn't tell anyone that there is a pg outside of your hive. Later on as you're halfway to your destination, joe_veteran alerts everyone that the marines are attacking one of two or three hives. So, you race back there frantically with your higher life form to try and save the day. You start hitting marines, your health goes down to a dangerous level, and you redeem....

TO THAT SAME HIVE!

Now you're dead.

My suggestion for redemption is instead of redeeming to the nearest hive, you redeem to the furthest hive. I would think the hive mind would be wise about this; you take a badly injured alien out of the action to heal so it can go back in there full-force instead of pulling it back all of 2 feet.

I tried running a search on redemption for all posts, waited 5 minutes, came back, got some cereal, came back, took a shower, came back and it had not finished cataloging the search yet. I was not going to go through all of those threads if it was taking that long.


Suggestions or thoughts?

And then you have no chance at all of killing the marines at the attacked hive, unless you can run 724 feet/sec.


edit: typo

How about this:
If you redeem within x units of a hive (unless the hive is badly damaged) then you warp to the furthest hive.

If you redeem further than x units from a hive, then you go to that hive.

Might work.

well, thats what movement chambers are for isnt it?

Everwatchful: Shut up and read the ****ing post.

I mentioned this idea a while ago in lunixmonster. So, of course, i agree with it.You would be near death, guys, it wwas your choice to get redeem, if you don't want to be taken out the action, don't ****ing get it. Simple.

I think what everwatch meant was that when you redeem to the furthest hive you can use the mc to get back to the hive under attack. He was supporting the idea of this thread by dismissing one of the objections.

I like the idea (as I mention in the other thread earlier).

It never made sense that if you were attacking a marine in close combat to redeem at the same hive, because chances are you ended up further away from the marine, making it easy for the marine to finish you off from that range.

Unless you went SDM or DSM strat, you'll have movement chambers by the time you have two hives. If you have one hive... again, tough luck. You end up redeeming in the same hive.

I think in addition then, if you're within a certain range of the hive in a one-hive situation, you shouldn't redeem. I know this can be done because in 3.0 if a comm does a beacon, marines in ms don't automatically respawn there.

I disagree with that Koulnis. There has been many many times when a marine rambos to the one-hive situation where my egg redeemed to a different spot. By doing that, my egg was saved since he had to deal with other threats before he could find my egg again.

By adding the 'no redeem' near hive, you lose that advantage. Granted, it's only one very specific case, but redeem should still work near a hive.

YES! this is exactly wait i was saying in the topic you refered to koul accept i put a **** idea on there because i wanted to get some IDEA on this... mainly what i wanted was something like this on there... but since you started your own topic and its doing good im just going to support you

Am I the only one who thinks redemption should be replaced rather than changed?

After reviewing the new posts that came in today, I have some points that I would like to bring up:

1) Everything needs to have a flaw-- thank you so much for saying that. Nothing, no one, no alien is perfect, despite what Flayra told you. (We love you Flayra.) It is important to keep certain flaws in a game so that the other team has a chance to win, but we must also keep in mind that sometimes the flaw must be the team itself and not the tools they are using.

2) Redeeming eggs-- As an egg, there are certain situations where this would apply, and I need to ask a question here... if you are changing into another life form, do the traits you have leave when you begin gestating or when you are done? Because this could make all the difference in the world if a redeeming egg works or not. Granted, you could be evolving another trait and already have redemption as a trait and able to redeem to another in-hive location, but scientifically speaking, since the molecules and bacteria are rearranging, aren't you cut off from hive-sight, and the hive can't "see" you?

3) Running back to save a hive-- I'd assume this is a risk you take fir choosing redemption. For me, this would be a heavily weighed judgement on whether I choose redemption or not; after all, this is possibly a very selfish upgrade in certain situations, and when you are selfish it may cost your team. You save yourself and lose a hive.... is this a risk you'd want to take? Of course, if you have mc's active, it isn't too much of a problem. This would present another long-term choice with the starting chamber.


Thoughts?

To answer the egg question.... YES.

I'm almost positive that the traits you have are still with your egg. If things are hairy, sometimes I'll get redeem/silence/cloak (depending on which upgrades are available) before I go for a higher lifeform. Sometimes it'll save me.

A simple test for you to do is to get cara and then gestate. You'll notice your armor will be higher than normal while gestating.

(As a side-note, on a programmer side, this makes sense. Otherwise, each time you get upgrades, the egg would have to revert back to 'no upgrades' then revert back to upgrades + 1 new upgrade. Seems simplier to check at the end whether you got a new form or not)

In terms of what I've been egging to, there are several times a sneaky marine manages to get to the hive and try to kill my egg (going to fade/onos). Luckily, I manage to redeem to another spot, which he had to take some time finding. Which ended up some of the aliens combatting him, and me being saved.

thats cool, i didnt know that, ill try that next time i egg... so our solution to redemption is...

Nothing! YAY! owell... we atleast know to not try to change redemp because it cant be changed for the good in any way

I don't post much. This idea has been hanging around my head for a while. I couldn't see it in another topic.

I don't like redemption.
1.) In CO it is too good, I actually prefer playing on servers where it is removed
2.) In NS I never pick it. I don't like random rolls, I'd almost always prefer the safety of extra carapace, or the time saving advantage of regen.
3.) Random rolls are not part of NS game design theory. Beacons don't work 80% of the time, they work 100%. Whilst shotgun scatter is somewhat random, basically you point your gun and if you aim right, you hit.
NS has plenty of variability due to the interaction between RTS vs FPS and the general variability of all PvP situations.

I'd replace redemption with a new power. I'd call it somethng like Necrology.

The new power allows aliens to continue to fight for a short period after dying. (Think 1 second for a skulk. Maybe 5 seconds for an onos). This gives the aliens to have the option to gain combat strength in a very different way to either carapace (which prolongs the time in combat before you die) or regen (which reduces the time spent running to heal, so increases the average amount of time you spend in combat).

For the skulk, this means that as long as you ambush a marine, you are likely to kill that marine, even if they do the mad jumpskillz that ping them across the room.

As a gorge you can scamper across the floor to the hive location, drop it, and spit it.

As an onos, you can charge the PG in the knowledge that even when you die, the damn PG is going down.

This sounds like it could make DC a viable first chamber (currently it seems to be 3rd hive or bust) in NS.

It seems to work in CO (where the early game tends to be dominated by LMGs killing skulks).

Sometimes players complain that aliens don't have a way to break down the marines in the way that marines have sieges. The devs have suggested that Onos is the 'siege' for aliens, but my experience is that (say in Tanith MS), even 3 or 4 onoses on charge can get mown down by concentrated HMG fire.

Another thing I like about this upgrade is that it changes the balance of gameplay. Currently a hero rambo marine can win a game single handed. With this upgrade, it is necessary to have marines work in groups, such that attacking skulks are killed at range, so they cannot inflict marine casualties during the 1 second of after-death combat.

It encourages skulks to rush together, knowing that the 2nd skulk to be killed is likely to have got into range to deliver the killing bite during the 1 second of after death combat.

When considering the balance issues of this ability, I have compared it to early game cloaking and silence. Both are very good. However, both can be countered by the comm. This ability doesn't have a counter, but perhaps that is in the nature of DC upgrades.

In late game, consider that a carapaced fade is likely to survive X+Y amount of a firefight due to the extra armour from the carapace. A Necrologied fade will also fight for X+Y amount of a firefight.

The upgrade seems most powerful when the short term odds are stacked against the aliens (ie skulks versus LMG, or onoses on a suicide charge).

I said this back in 2005, but I approve of any upgrade that replaces Redemption.
It kind of sucks that it cant save your life like the other upgrades though. If you invest 75 res you usually want to keep it as long as possible, not just do as much damage as possible..

Well yeah, redemp is rather unreliable, cause its random. Witheout changing much, you could implement a charging redemption.

Example:
Once you are below 10% health you redeem 100% of the time.
Then it takes 120-60 seconds (depending on the number of of DCs) for redemption to recharge.
If it is fully charged and you drop below 10% you will redeem again.
If it is not fully charged, you dont redeem.

The only thing you need to tweak here are 2 variables. So it should be easy to playtest and balance.

how about if redemption would allow you to teleport into a hive anytime? i mean like,
you got a special button for redemption, and 5 seconds after you click it, you teleport back.

if you dont use the button, redemption is useless. it removes the randomness of it.
just though of it while reading some of the posts here.
the ability that lets you attack after death is a nice idea, but seemed overpowered.

With respect, I don't think that suggesting something is overpowered is a critique. If something is unbalanced, you balance it, instead of discarding the concept.

If a skulk living for 1 second is overpowered, make it 0.5 seconds. If that is overpowered, make it .25 seconds. Its not hard to balance an idea if it is good.

I like the idea of redemping to a hive NOT under attack since we can use the hive anywayz now to go to a attacked hive

just a minor flaw in your idea: can't have cara and necro in ns_ but presumably in co_ it's ok....

i think it is an interesting idea overall, but it would be far too powerful for combat maps....

i think redemption needs the random taken out of it really. if your health hits a number below 10% total hp, then you should redeem, and just need a half second or one seond before redemption occurs... so it encourages you to run a bit before it pulls you out

Fortunately I didn't say anything concerning cara and necro in ns_.



I absolutely disagree with the concept that it would be too good for co_. That comment seems to misunderstand the incredible value of the current redemption in co_.

I play on some servers that have banned redemp for co_. Why might they have done that?

Once a fade or onos gets redempt, they die about 20% as often as without it.

I'm not sure I agree with this entirely, a high level shotgun because it takes hit points down in large quantities with each instant shot seems to void redemption on most lifeforms. On servers with the game-altering ExtraLevels 3 plugin (better known as xmenu) some good UA and and a few people who went with scan now going with static makes it hard for redemption to work properly. Honestly, I find it is best used when aliens team is stacked (skill wise and teamwork coordination wise) and redemption is an early upgrade


I don't like random rolls either, but as a skulk getting it as the first chamber if you know the marines will rush weapons upgrades (as they usually do since most aliens go for MC first in pubs) then getting redemption allows the alien offense to be super aggressive as skulks and if you don't redeem then it's like "meh oh well". DC first is a great counter to early weapons rush with LMGs, just like SC first is a great counter to a shotgun rush. NS is a cool game like that, if your team can figure out or (ideally) predict your enemy team then you can choose your counters wisely. I have bad luck with redemption sometimes so I hate to use it as an onos.


You make a really good point here. Marine can always beacon in a fix and using beacon wisely like say when rushing a hive is often key to success.


Hmm, I would love to playtest this idea out in a real game. I have a feeling you'd have marines complain about aliens being overpowered, but of course you could balance it. And how is this that different from carapace in function? I mean, doesn't carapace do the same thing essentially? And if the alien is invincible when this necrology activates (which would be one way to make it a useful difference) the marines have no counter. That is a problem then. The only balancing factor being that the alien will die (I think that's what you are suggesting, yes?) when the effect wears off make it much more like xenocide in function. Which is good for making the aliens aggressive, but it is not something a high level lifeform would go for usually.

I can't say that Necrology thinking it out as you present the function is a good replacement for Redemption, but you gave me two REALLY good ideas as I was reading your arguements. Consider these:

Vampirism:
What?
Aliens gain a small percentage of health back on a successful melee hit. (hive 0 for all except the gorge; perhaps getting HP from OC hits on marine flesh? or healspray?)
Why?
Gives aliens exactly that "last push" ability you were talking about while requiring them to still close the distance and take risk of the marines using shotguns to quickly take that gained HP off
Test?
The marine trainer servers (MT1 and MT2) both employ this ability on their Whichbots which as a result when swarming a marine position without ample defenses. It also makes marines want to build automated defenses and push for upgrades faster, both of which make early hive rushing ineffective and allow the game to become more epic as marine claim a zone and aliens claim a different zone. Marines need to stay in packs, aliens are better rewarded for ambushing
Counter factor?
Marines equip fast damage weapons like shotguns and HMGs to take the aliens down at range better, build defenses up, research weapons more, and/or go for heavy armor and jetpacks ASAP
Control factor?
Quantity or percentage of HP regained on hit
Immersion factor?
Alien's melee attack is "eating" the marine, giving it nutritious flesh

Redemption(reworked):
What?
Alien have 100% success on redemption, but only if they pass into a small percentage (say less than 5%) of total health or between zero and a low hit point number (say between 0 and 25 HP). The alien will redeem to the futhest hive and ideally one which is NOT under attack.
Why?
Removes random roll and as Octavian pointed out: Does beacon work 80% of the time? This would encourage aliens to rush marine fortified positions more. They have a better chance at surviving (at the cost of having to run back) and repeat attacks would weaken the marine base.
Test?
A pluggin to disable convential redemption and override it with one that works as above, then playtest heavily
Counter factor?
Alien are redeemed far away so that buys the marines time combined with the fact that marines unlike aliens don't get capped at 100 resources, so if that onos keeps on getting pushed back to the far hive it spend most of it's time plodding back to the marine positions. Marine going with explosive or powershot weapons like mines, grenade launchers, and shotguns would be ideal to kill them before they can redeem. If the marines had a researchable high techtree attack like the alternate fire on the HL2 pulse rifle to use against all classes except fades and onii then the insta-death would nullify the redemption upgrade.
Control factor?
The percentage of HP or number of HP remaining needed to set the tre
Immersion factor?
The hivemind itself has grown with time since NS1 and is now better at redeeming allies

Those are ideas I've collected as fragments from multiple ideas I've seen from my time viewing lots of ideas and suggestions about Natural-Selection. Do either of those sound like something you all would like to see in NS2?


I agree. There have been some ideas I wish they hadn't been discarded so readily in playtesting.


I also agree. It makes more sense that the hive mind would do that, and it has some balance in that you have to take the time to travel all the way back, which for slower classes like gorges and onii can seem like it takes forever.

The previous ideas were better than the original. I believe that redemption should be replaced with something else. "Vampirism" didnt sound so bad

I think redemption is just fine, taking to nearest hive allows them to chase the alien to the hive and finish it if their quick enough.

Although i wish they would tweak it, gorges its almost worthless, where as onos is almost invulnerable do to it.

I doubt you know that when you hit E on a hive it will teleport you to a hive thats under attack then do you?

Good idea, vote YES