Ha! Beat you to it, tanke!

Seriously, it's a tad earlier than usual, but for good reasons.
Please post your thoughts on the post-3.0.4 balance situation below. As usual, you're much likelier to make a difference with your points if you supply arguments instead of allegations.

Less alien ties.

Not speaking competitively, this is actually a very balancing upgrade with the 20 secs less to HMGs for the competitive scene.

I actually feel that 3.0.5 is even more balanced than 3.0.4

As for 3.0.4- it's still the norm for 2 balanced teams to win their alien games; when the 2nd hive goes active the marines are in serious trouble (siegeing is a bit easier, but I think the Kharaa prefer longer battles (i.e. sieging), as they can heal for free and it costs 0 res for a lethal leaping-focus-celerity skulk to spawn.)

Outside of balance: the game is superb. I have never seen any serious kind of bug (well, everyone complains about hitboxes- though 3.0.5 has helped a lot). It is much more stable than the average retail game I play!

its great not having to hit use on the armory

e : this may sound sarcastic but the time does add up

My clan has noticed that with the siege damage what it is now, it's extremely difficult for 2 gorges to heal a hive for any decent amount of time. Since 2 gorges are a third of your team, the damage may be a bit too high now.

Sieges are scary, and if they go up, the hive is going down. This might not be a bad thing, and I don't really think that 2 gorges should be able to balance out a siege.

I don't feel that aliens have the upper hand so much anymore. I finally feel like the better team will win.

I have a marine sided team though. We lost our alien side to a weaker team last night but beat them pretty solid even though I was commanding without a microphone on marine side.

And I have no empirical evidance.

Well it's not that I want 2 gorges to counter it fully, it's just that they dont seem to STALL it nearly enough for the aliens to have a chance to kill the sieges.

Well, 2 gorges is 20 res. A decent siege base is
PG + TF + upgrade + 3 sieges
That's what? 60 res or so? There is no way they should counter each other.

@topic: I feel like 3.04 has pretty much reached NS balance. There are some things that just can't be ironed out (e.g. HL-engine hitboxes)... but other than that, I think it's good.

Most of the balance (as in previous versions) is centered around the first 5:00 of game play (or technically when fades come out, which I have seen as early as 2:45, but is rare).

Its essential to the marines to pressure the nodes of the aliens ASAP to break their economy. If their economy is broken, fades can be delayed to about 6:00, assuming the alien team survives.

I've observed that the extra ammo and the little bit of armor (I know its not new, but equally as important) does help a lot. Even though armor 1 is usually the upgrade of choice, sometimes marines do fight skulks without getting parasited. The little buffs do help, but as stated earlier the balance revolves around when aliens get fades, for the most part, and whether or not the marines can counter them with effective upgrades, weapons and tactics.

Just a casual observation from a former competitive player.

But do the marine and alien team have a somewhat equal chance of winning a game?

Rrriiiiiight.

Dudes and dudettes: Just because Nem created this topic doesn't mean I won't do whatever it takes to keep it clean and focused on balance feedback. Any other topic is for .. you guessed it -- another topic.

(X long, ranting posts deleted. Yes, that means that you are right.)

hive 2 aliens are still too strong

I know you like one-liners mu, but elaborate please.

Hive2 aliens = Aliens get leap, their armour absorbtion increases, they get umbra, fades have NO FEAR of ANYTHING (meta + hive2 armor + umbra + focus)

2 chamber types at once = overpowered

focus = overpowered

when the second hive goes up the aliens get all these at once

marines don't know what the **** and need top tier to survive, it's insanely hard to make any kind of push while the hive heals aliens

marines have to go in a group at all times, they either go for an alien hive which means the aliens just have to hold them off until the skulks eat all their res and they push them back or a fade gets enough res to onos

if marines go after res they get attacked by the overpowered hive2 aliens

you NEED sieges to take out a second hive, umbra + gorge heal + flying focus fades + twice the spawn speed of skulks + free upgrades + super fast gestate times = no way can you get into hive room

you cant afford sieges because there is always at least one skulk attacking your nodes

you cant send one or two guys alone to take nodes against hive 2 aliens because all it takes is 1 fade and 1 skulks and you're a dead marine. if you send three guys to hold nodes then 2 hive aliens can just spot you on SoF or silence run away with parasites on you and attack other nodes, either forcing them to split up or just lose the nodes (remember, split up = dead)

not to mention that if you send 2 or 3 guys away to hold your nodes you are going to lose any siege position

the constant need for meds against spore and focus drains res

the constant need for more ammo because you can't kill anything that has 2 hives (umbra + hive healing + leap/blink/celerity flight) you can only make them run away, drains res

jetpacks are useless endgame tech, if the second hive is up you're GOING to get focused down, if aliens dont take sensory at second hive they're being stupid

while you're sieging a hive, chances are the aliens are building new nodes HELLO MR. ONOS STOMP MACHINE

stomp > siege bases

the only hives that are possible to siege without getting REALLY LUCKY are fusion reactor from cargo or the ones on nancy, but only if an onos can't get in there (comm chair blocking oh wait that costs 30+ res and it's lame as ****)

i'm sure there's more

god damn 2 hive aliens annoy me



edit: oh yea, bilebomb

you can forget about having any static defense because the only affordable option (mines) just went out the window and even then, mines cost a whole lot anyway

you cant take out a bilebombing gorge in a hive, but bilebomb can get round corners and take out your sieges, tfs and phase gates

at least when there is no gorge bilebombing you HAVE a chance to siege, i mean, it's not like its hard enough to fend off focus leap celerity fades, skulks with spores and umbra

WELDERS, time you spend welding is time wasted because you aren't shooting, which means the fades can stay longer and blahblahblah

Obligatory complaint about hand grenades being useless because they aren't like TFC nades and you have to waste time and res upgrading, also their damage sucks if you get more than a meter away it doesnt hurt you.

Obligatory complaint about cat packs sucking because they cost too much and dont speed up reload times

also: we dont have time or res to upgrade any of this stuff because all res is either spent on rebuilding nodes, armor/weapon upgrades, armory upgrades and meds/ammo.
I would rather have HMGs than hand grenades and armor1/weapons2 over catpacks, thats the choice we're forced to make otherwise the alien hive gets built and you lose

A lot of people are complaining about the strength of aliens at hive 2 but the real problem is with aliens at hive 1. In previous versions there was innate regen so most every clan went dcs to start and then scs or mcs for hive 2. This led to what I consider to be a major problem with 3.0f in general.

I hate to say it but I think movement chambers are too strong at hive 1 now. Not that they weren't always awesome at hive 1, I mean obs has been using them for quite some time now to beat teams a lot better then us, but with innate regen there is no reason for fades to need dc upgrades at hive 1. Instant teleporting to building hive plus silence and celerity skulks for free it greatly improves the alien early game which allows that second hive to go up.

Then of course once that second hive is up teams have the choice of defense chambers or sensories, but really with meta and innate your fades still don't really need regen at all so most teams go with scs for the most overpowered upgrade in the game. Add in leaping focus silent skulks and you are in for a good time as marines unless you have proto tech ready. Of course focus skulks, lerks, and fades vs jetpackers, or sof celerity onos vs heavies is kind of an unfair matchup.

I really don't know how this could be fixed and I really don't want to see movements get nerfed but there is a substantial problem there. Personally I think that the game should move in a direction away from dependance on the number of hives and focus on speed and skill where the better team won't be penalized because they made a small mistake, or let a hive go up.

Innate is an extra bullet for skulks, and thats about it. Granted thats 10% more durability right frickin' there, but the other advantages of innate are cosmetic. While you can say a fade can take really minor scrapes and heal back up with innate, thats great - but innate takes an immense amount of time to counter injurys that take no time at all to inflict.

I agree with mu, but I have to add, free celerity skulks are a joke.

You guys are just listing every disadvantage the marines have at hive 2. The reality is that if all of those things were reversed, the game would be just as marine biased.

A click is every 4 seconds, so maybe you wanna rethink those numbers.

A Major Major MAJOR inbalance in the game is that armor upgrades are broken. The only worthwhile upgrade is armor 1. If you make a2 and a3 actually do something worthwhile maybe spending the assload of res to get them could assist with the two hive alien situation. Armor that matters would make marines much scarier, and the game more balanced and awesome.

Marines usually only win if they can bring the aliens down to one RT before 5:00 and if they hang on to their phase gate outside the second hive at 6:30.

More than one alien RT before 5:00: earlier celerity fades, more RTs -> enough res to drop second hive in a reasonable amount of time (4:00-5:00) -> more fades around 7:00.

Dead phase gate at 6:00 or 6:30: second hive up -> aliens get leap, metabolize, and focus -> aliens win.

Since level 3 silence/celerity is so common now the first one is especially hard to take care of.

(As a reminder, while I appreciate points regarding full upgrades or weapons - say, Focus or Grenades - keep in mind that we won't be able to make whole exchanges for 3.0.5.
Just trying to keep everyone's hopes realistic.)

I would like to see the marine armor reduced again. NS at the point, imo, is very imbalanced. At the start of a round a good team of marines can get HUGE map control and the aliens have little chance at stopping a organized assault . Especially with the additional ammo which frees up res for marines early game. Until a lerk/fade gets up marines have too much map control.

The reduced armor and ammo forces marines to spend res(on ammo packs and armor 1) in the early game where they are the strongest. To offset this weapon upgrade damage could be increased slightly so that marines get help midgame where they really need it, not early game where they dominate the map.

you know 1 parasite is enough to nullify the armor boost?
and parasiting itself is immensly useful

Most of the time that a battle comes down to that 10 hp is the battles that are fought up close and those are battle where it is very hard to effictively parasite without getting yourself killed.

I like the sound of that researchable welder idea.

wouldn't 40 res be too much? hell that's the cost of HA resesarch right there.

40 res is a pretty tall order though for an upgrade that most people will want early game, not like marines aren't stretched enough having to get a1, w1, w2, AA, PGs and drop weapons without dicking out 40 res for welders when you normally just drop 2 and throw them around.

That 40 res will make armour more viable against an alien team that has a lerk sporing. Spores completely annihilate armour (and res on meds ), making welders pretty much necessary.
It would be a wise investment, but not always. I like that upgrade.

Yes but 5 res every now and then is no big deal, an extra 40 res upgrade early game is good bye something else (Who needs HMGs or weapons2 anyway?).

double post.

I've honestly seen more combat games whose outcome is up in the air longer then NS games. The 2nd hive is to important, fades are to important, Aliens just CAN'T rebuild early game, post-hive2 marine gaming is only ninja phases, and there is little chance of shottyless marines taking out a force of upgraded leap skulks.

Here are a few solutions with my reasoning behind them:

- Remove RFK... both teams. At least then early game situations won't be only 5ish minutes. The game wouldn't be 100% focused on that 2nd hive and keeping it down/up. Res towers are important once more.

- Gorge evolution cost lowered. This is to not only extend the time before the 2nd hive/fade is able to be built (less starting res) but to assist alien early game rebuilding (since the focus of the game is hopefully less about hives and more about resources). It shouldn't be more then 5... I'd just make it free like the skulk to make battle gorging something the alien team can do without sucking their RT/hive/fade res dry.

- Make the first skulk upgrade free, after the 2nd hive if the alien wants a upgrade from another chamber it'll cost 1 res. At the 3rd hive... the third and final chamber upgrade would be 2.

- Up skulk walking speed. Its hard to make something quick in a game like HL without people turning that speed into WTHcrackskulksonicboom speed through bunnyhoping. Perhaps the walking speed shouldn't be increased... but WALLSPEED (if thats even possible). I'd like more emphasis put on the skulks wall climb and less on "RUSH THE MARINES". Bunnyhoppers feel they are "skilled" because they can jump around really fast... but the way they use it seems so void of stratigy.

- Ambushing isn't viable Post-MT without sitting for long periods of time (instant death for an alien team BTW... a member being inactive for any amount of time). So i believe aliens going at a walk speed shouldn't show up on MT. It allows for skulks to move into positions for ambushing WHILE the marines are moving about the map.

- Perhaps adding a long wished for wall jump off the wall/roof should be added for increased agility/evasion for wall-running skulks

What this would (hopefully) do is put less focus on fades and hives and put it back in early game type fighting. Isn't that honestly where most of the fun is in NS_ ? I hate seeing game after game of the losing team F4ing after the 8 minute mark.

replacing the hand grenade upgrade with a welder upgrade is still a great idea as hand grenade is pretty much useless.

mt is basicly a wall hack and doesnt cost 40 res, 40 would be too much (depending on the research time).

personally id say 30 res and 40 seconds. not always will marines actually use the welders remember, and its useless for lone marines.

about the mc's giving the adren boost.. often enough sieges will take out the mc's while they are hitting the hive unless the gorge knows where to place them properly (very rare).

personally i think celerity is still overpowering. It makes the higher lifeforms so strong as they can just soak up bullets, it really does need to have its speed increase % lowered a bit. just to stop cele lerks and fades being soo dominant.

sieges are very powerful now but thats ok, just a ***** when against HA with sieges in a high res game.

Early game is still just about balanced and was never really off imho. Cant really give reasons, it was just working for both sides equally.

the gestate time has made like, no difference at all, aliens spend more than 1 second camping to ambush so increasing the time it takes for them to get an upgrade by 1 second was pretty pointless.

not had enough experience with the newest patch to comment on the research time changes.

Still have the same issue though

1 fade = 3 sg lvl 2 marines

2 fades = 6 sg lvl 3 marines

3 fades > marine team

4 fades > all

but now we've simply nerf sticked the skulks with the extra 5 AP which, in all seriousness, doesn't affect fade balance

I say REDUCE skulk DAMAGE and INCREASE it's SPEED

Then, INCREASE fade DAMAGE and DECREASE it's RATE OF FIRE, to make it more pure hit and run

Increase lerk speed in general


To compensate
Increase LMG clipsize?
Increase LMG per bullet damage?
Increase Knife damage?
Increase LA speed when only holding a knife (c'mon... I can run faster carrying a 40 pound backpack, a binder, my laptop, and a lunch box)

Personally, I'll hold back on judgment until people adjust to the new hit detection code. Let me rephrase that: I wouldn't monkey with balance until we se just how much of an effect the hit detection has on the overall marine game once (assumming 3.0.5 becomes an official release).

I liked it when seiges dealt less damage to chambers but hurt aliens as well.


Your structures didn't drop in half a second yet aliens needed to be careful around the seiges. I thought it was a lot more fun, and seiges back in the day could work on 2 hive aliens.

But the new sieges can work, anyways.