I cant even begin to tell you how frustrating it is, playing this game. You can be in the heat of battle, and escape completely unscathed, only to flee around a corner where miraculously, 4 sg blasts connect killing you instantly.
Can this be fixed with rates? I believe it has something to do with interpolation, but no matter what I seem to do, I always run into the same thing. There has to be some way to configure your own perspective so it lags behind at the same rate as everyone else's.
I have 3.5 mb/s cable, so I allwase have my rates at rate:20000 - cmd:101 - upd:101 ex_interp 0 ex_extrapmax 1 if the server is good enough for me to run with no choke. On poor servers i go 20000 - 60 - 30 ex_interp 0 ex_extrapmax 1.2
Full Version: Getting Shot Arround Corners
Unknown Worlds Forums > Natural Selection > Natural Selection Organized Play > General Competitive Discussion
It's the other person's rates that cause this, I believe.
Don't play against euros or aussies.
Its the half-life engine says one dev. Nothing can really be done about it.
its great for killing lerks in vents
| QUOTE (comrade @ May 28 2005, 10:49 PM) |
| I don't know but this is pretty funny www.knifegaming.com/stuff/spaniards.zip |
ZING
the funny thing is, spanish people ping more to spanish servers than the rest of europe ;\
| QUOTE (comrade @ May 28 2005, 10:49 PM) |
| I don't know but this is pretty funny www.knifegaming.com/stuff/spaniards.zip |
lmao this is what a skill video should be like
| QUOTE (MrGunner @ May 29 2005, 12:51 PM) |
| Don't play against euros or aussies. |
There goes our clan scene.
| QUOTE (Mouse @ May 29 2005, 02:26 AM) | ||
There goes our clan scene. |
Getting shot around corners actually happens to me alot when I play with you -/AUS/- guys. >_>
I typically go lerk and try to gas all of you because skulking is next to impossible. <_<
Then again, 275 ping to aussieland isn't bad from the east coast of the US.
you'd still get shot around corners even with a ping of 50 - our hacks are better than yours >.>
It's the HL prediction code, which allows high-pingers to actually play the game without having to aim in front of or behind other players. Sure, it's not perfect, but any system involving communication latencies is bound to have some flaws or artifacts.
It is more depending on the other player's latency than yours.
I wonder how you can get 4 SG blasts "around the corner", though. That's over 2 seconds of latency difference if it comes from one, 1 second with two.
It is more depending on the other player's latency than yours.
I wonder how you can get 4 SG blasts "around the corner", though. That's over 2 seconds of latency difference if it comes from one, 1 second with two.
Exaggeration: yaaaaay!
i egt this all the time
even when playing with people of the same ping. its so fun.
even when playing with people of the same ping. its so fun.
Celerity fading against Euros can get you killed through 3 corners
I've never been corner killed as a celerity fade three corners away by a euro. Perhaps the fact that I live in the Netherlands has something to do with it, but more likely the fact that I usually die without blinking away to a single lmg rine or die by getting stuck while blinking away.
[edit]that spaniard movie crashes both windows media player and winamp after 4 seconds of play... ah well.[/edit]
[edit]that spaniard movie crashes both windows media player and winamp after 4 seconds of play... ah well.[/edit]
This is a two pronged problem, both dealing with HL's coding and generally uncontrollable by the devs.
1) The HL netcode checks every shot from the client and sends that information to the server, thus the ping of the client who is receiving damage doesn't really matter. Basically, if the person shooting you still "sees" you on his screen, even though you've long passed the corner, the server will still register that as a hit on you, regardless of your current location around the wall.
2) Imperfect hitboxes. Because the HL1 code is not designed to encorperate elaborate hitboxes (would lag insanely), hitboxes are mostly confined to large rectangles encompassing a model. Now because most models do not fit perfectly into these rectangles, the hitbox rectangles often encompass the area of the model, and then some. So even if BOTH of you (attacker and you) see that you around the corner, your visual model may have been, but the tip of a hitbox may still have been in the line of fire, thus resulting in another form of a "wall death" (this one more rare by itself, but often in conjuction with the first problem.)
3) though this really isn't a problem, it can add to the effect of being wall killed. Because often your dead corpse travels for a bit in the direction you were heading before you died, it may appear that you were wall killed, when in fact you may have been killed before rounding the corner, but your dead body (and view) were flung some distance, causing the appearance of being wall killed. This usually happens when travelling at high speeds, such as celerity blinking, flying, bunnyhopping and jetpacking.
1) The HL netcode checks every shot from the client and sends that information to the server, thus the ping of the client who is receiving damage doesn't really matter. Basically, if the person shooting you still "sees" you on his screen, even though you've long passed the corner, the server will still register that as a hit on you, regardless of your current location around the wall.
2) Imperfect hitboxes. Because the HL1 code is not designed to encorperate elaborate hitboxes (would lag insanely), hitboxes are mostly confined to large rectangles encompassing a model. Now because most models do not fit perfectly into these rectangles, the hitbox rectangles often encompass the area of the model, and then some. So even if BOTH of you (attacker and you) see that you around the corner, your visual model may have been, but the tip of a hitbox may still have been in the line of fire, thus resulting in another form of a "wall death" (this one more rare by itself, but often in conjuction with the first problem.)
3) though this really isn't a problem, it can add to the effect of being wall killed. Because often your dead corpse travels for a bit in the direction you were heading before you died, it may appear that you were wall killed, when in fact you may have been killed before rounding the corner, but your dead body (and view) were flung some distance, causing the appearance of being wall killed. This usually happens when travelling at high speeds, such as celerity blinking, flying, bunnyhopping and jetpacking.
Thankyou for the replies, I was just wondering if I could do anything on my end to avoid it. Looks like thats not the case.
you werent killed around the corner..the server just just decided to tell you your dead after you already rounded the corner.
playing aliens is harder cuz any feedback you receive about taking damage will be late when playing ppl with high pings. run away sooner is the answer
playing aliens is harder cuz any feedback you receive about taking damage will be late when playing ppl with high pings. run away sooner is the answer
I don't know I've found that since 3.0F I've been seeing a lot of delayed hit registration with as low as a 50 ping. This is mostly noticed for me when I empty my last few shots at a skulk to see him take 2 more hops before dying from the bullets catching up. Maybe it was always like this and I never noticed but it is really noticeable now.
| QUOTE (MrGunner @ May 31 2005, 09:33 AM) |
| I don't know I've found that since 3.0F I've been seeing a lot of delayed hit registration with as low as a 50 ping. This is mostly noticed for me when I empty my last few shots at a skulk to see him take 2 more hops before dying from the bullets catching up. Maybe it was always like this and I never noticed but it is really noticeable now. |
I usually find that there is around a .5s lag time before the last bullet and the actual death. I've always chalked that up to weird netcode/strained engine, maybe it's an actual bug?
yeah i get that **** too, you can stop shooting and you'll get the death message a little bit later.
anyone tried it on a lan with updaterate a billion? maybe it's part of the delay between sending and reciving data or something
anyone tried it on a lan with updaterate a billion? maybe it's part of the delay between sending and reciving data or something
| QUOTE (kalimxs @ May 31 2005, 09:12 PM) |
| yeah i get that **** too, you can stop shooting and you'll get the death message a little bit later. anyone tried it on a lan with updaterate a billion? maybe it's part of the delay between sending and reciving data or something |
I can tell you that running NS on lan with everyone pinging <10 results in a nearly unnoticable delay between last bullet and deathmessage. It is a sole ping issue.
| QUOTE (MrGunner @ May 31 2005, 09:33 AM) |
| I don't know I've found that since 3.0F I've been seeing a lot of delayed hit registration with as low as a 50 ping. This is mostly noticed for me when I empty my last few shots at a skulk to see him take 2 more hops before dying from the bullets catching up. Maybe it was always like this and I never noticed but it is really noticeable now. |
I can also confirm this was not normal behaviour pre beta. There was the occasional lag death, but for the most part, skulks died almost instantly on the bullet that caused their death. Now I notice, (and it becomes even more evident when emptying your entire clip) that the skulk dies ~1 second after receiving the bullet that caused fatal damage. I.E. I empty the remainder of my lmg clip into a skulk only to find him still hopping at me, then when I switch to my pistol, he magically dies from the lmg bullet I had shot into him a second earlier. Something is definately fishy in this new version...
Remember when 3.0f came out and the shotgun went ****?
| QUOTE |
| I.E. I empty the remainder of my lmg clip into a skulk only to find him still hopping at me, then when I switch to my pistol, he magically dies from the lmg bullet I had shot into him a second earlier. |
Yea, I've noticed that to, I assumed it was from information 'bottle necking' or something to that effect. Like when you spam with a +3jump script and it keeps going for a few seconds.
Ya i've noticed it a lot more since this new beta. Not sure if it's a bug or just plain old lag.
| QUOTE |
| This is a two pronged problem, both dealing with HL's coding and generally uncontrollable by the devs. 1) The HL netcode checks every shot from the client and sends that information to the server, thus the ping of the client who is receiving damage doesn't really matter. Basically, if the person shooting you still "sees" you on his screen, even though you've long passed the corner, the server will still register that as a hit on you, regardless of your current location around the wall. |
Basically, if the person shotting you still "sees" you on his screen, even though you've long passed the corner, the server will still register that as a hit on you if the server calculates that you were actually where this person shot at the estimated time it took place and this only accours usualy of a max of 1 sec.
So in other words, you can be shot around a corner if the person aiming at you aims correctly at you according to his time (and server agrees) timeframe.
So what can you take from this? Instead of looking at it like, omg I was killed around a corner, think of it this way, the guy who killed you shot at you normally before you went around the corner, so its a legit kill, maybe it was a dumb move to attack them!
Damn it thats not clear its so hard to explain.
Whoever shot you around a corner, shot you on his screen before you went around the corner, except he is half a second behind everyone else. You think this is unfair? Yeah well maybe he could still shoot you for 0.5 secs after you left the room, but he couldnt shoot you until 0.5 after you entered it. And if you still think this is unfair, change your server setting sv_unlag to 0. And see how this affects pretty much every shot you fire.
| QUOTE |
| I usually find that there is around a .5s lag time before the last bullet and the actual death. I've always chalked that up to weird netcode/strained engine, maybe it's an actual bug? |
I dont know about this, but it could be something to do with the innate regen aliens have now? I.E. it takes two server ticks rather than one because it goes:
Skulk shot; skulk shot; skulk shot; innate regen; Skulk is dead.
| QUOTE |
| 2) Imperfect hitboxes. Because the HL1 code is not designed to encorperate elaborate hitboxes (would lag insanely), hitboxes are mostly confined to large rectangles encompassing a model. Now because most models do not fit perfectly into these rectangles, the hitbox rectangles often encompass the area of the model, and then some. So even if BOTH of you (attacker and you) see that you around the corner, your visual model may have been, but the tip of a hitbox may still have been in the line of fire, thus resulting in another form of a "wall death" (this one more rare by itself, but often in conjuction with the first problem.) |
This is what hitboxes look like: http://members.boards.ie/das/hitboxes.JPG
Btw these are the low-fps models, the standard ones have roughly the same hitboxes tho, if not a bit more detailed.
hlmv hitboxs are not what they are ingame
also, they don't have to be aiming at you, with the right netcode settings they can set the hitbox to actally be behind where the model is rendered for them.\
oh yeah, and the "can't shoot them when they enter hardly counts because UNLESS YOU'RE WALLHACKING YOU DON'T KNOW THEY'RE COMING, but you sure as **** know when they LEFT, now don't you?
also, they don't have to be aiming at you, with the right netcode settings they can set the hitbox to actally be behind where the model is rendered for them.\
oh yeah, and the "can't shoot them when they enter hardly counts because UNLESS YOU'RE WALLHACKING YOU DON'T KNOW THEY'RE COMING, but you sure as **** know when they LEFT, now don't you?
bahn anything less than DSL
>_>
oh, wireless too
Oh, and those are BOUNDING boxes I do believe
the hitbox is just a single set for each piece, ala
1 body, 2 legs (or four) (or wings), 2 arms (or none) (or claws), and a head.
>_>
oh, wireless too
Oh, and those are BOUNDING boxes I do believe
the hitbox is just a single set for each piece, ala
1 body, 2 legs (or four) (or wings), 2 arms (or none) (or claws), and a head.
| QUOTE (Melachi @ Jun 5 2005, 08:59 PM) |
| This is what hitboxes look like: http://members.boards.ie/das/hitboxes.JPG Btw these are the low-fps models, the standard ones have roughly the same hitboxes tho, if not a bit more detailed. |
Actually no, those are the HLMV bounding boxes, they do NOT represent the actual hitboxes accurately.
That death delay is so bad I can pull out my knife and swipe a skulk once then he will die to my gun. This happens on every server and config I have ever used.
Delayed reg hits are funny, I unload loads of bullets into an alien then exactly 1 second after ceasing fire it dies. Happens about twice a game. Probably due to the server being windows limited to 60 fps at the moment, Go Lunix + 300 fps 
you can run windows hlds with a 2 slot cs server boosted with ping booster then just adjust the sys_ticrate of the ns server to a reasonable number. I like 120-140 fps hlds for running NS. Btw linux hlds has built in command line pingbooster commands that work with natural selection.
| QUOTE (kalimxs @ Jun 5 2005, 10:20 PM) |
| oh yeah, and the "can't shoot them when they enter hardly counts because UNLESS YOU'RE WALLHACKING YOU DON'T KNOW THEY'RE COMING, but you sure as **** know when they LEFT, now don't you? |
Your a bit of a nub arent you, even if they dont know when your comming into a room, they still dont know your comming into a room .5 seconds slower than other people.
Its all relative, they still have the same window of oportunity to shoot you in.
I liked the 2.01 hitboxes that didn't go on the models right 'cause I knew where to aim then.
| QUOTE (Melachi @ Jun 6 2005, 11:59 AM) | ||
Your a bit of a nub arent you, even if they dont know when your comming into a room, they still dont know your comming into a room .5 seconds slower than other people. Its all relative, they still have the same window of oportunity to shoot you in. |
hitboxs are not models and don't ever line up under high ping's.
it's like this : people see model, there is a delay before they take aim and shot, people with high ping have the hitbox behind the model, so they have a LONGER window of opprotunity to shoot, unless they respond instantly (impossible)
| QUOTE (Grahf @ Jun 6 2005, 01:47 AM) |
| That death delay is so bad I can pull out my knife and swipe a skulk once then he will die to my gun. This happens on every server and config I have ever used. |
Yea, I think we should call for an official dev examination of this, as it is VERY detrimental to gameplay. Now, with a full LMG clip I find I can only kill 1 skulk. The lag-delay kill occurs almost everytime for me, and I find I empty at least 20 extra bullets (about two second's worth of shooting) into a skulk that is already pegged for death. That poses serious balance issues, since pre-beta I was able to kill at least 2 skulks with one clip, whereas now, I'll empty the entire contents into just one skulk.
Record demos, turn them into movies, use as evidence and submit to the bug database :/
| QUOTE (digz @ Jun 6 2005, 08:27 PM) |
| Record demos, turn them into movies, use as evidence and submit to the bug database :/ |
Yes, this is the ONLY realistic way we can do an "official dev examination". You can't sit there and require us to do much about it without providing us good data or information on it. We simply do not have time to do this ourselves, and if so many of you experience this you should be able to provide us real data in no time.
Good data consists of as much as possible of the following: Demos, detailed server data, time, playercount, ping/lag, rate details, players involved with their connection etc.
The less time we have to spend investigating what this exact issue is, the more time we can use on dealing with the actual bug(s).
| QUOTE (digz @ Jun 6 2005, 02:27 PM) |
| Record demos, turn them into movies, use as evidence and submit to the bug database :/ |
don't demo's kindof cheat with how they manage lag and what not? Demo isn't nessicarly a photo frame exact replication of the game you saw, it's kindof a "almost perfect" replica of what happened, but details like hitbox locations and player shooting angles are kindof tweaked so they make sense on your client's PoV, whereas the only GOOD representation of what really happened would be the way the server saw the event...
Well what the client sees is the main issue here. It doesnt matter ift he server kills the skulk off after 9 bullets, if it takes 18 before the client sees it.
| QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Jun 7 2005, 12:07 AM) | ||
don't demo's kindof cheat with how they manage lag and what not? Demo isn't nessicarly a photo frame exact replication of the game you saw, it's kindof a "almost perfect" replica of what happened, but details like hitbox locations and player shooting angles are kindof tweaked so they make sense on your client's PoV, whereas the only GOOD representation of what really happened would be the way the server saw the event... |
Demos can be viewed in slow motion and analyzed. They contain the blood decals and position of registered server hits, and they contain the exact position the recording player aimed. Very valuable.
And as tjosan said, the client perspective is what it's all about.
So... what did we learn from this thread? Give those laggy players shotties and even good fades will go down at least the first time. Its almost unfair to the fades since laggy shotgun players are a massive damage over time, compared to people with decent pings who are instant damage dealers.
Then again the best of the best fades i know are total focus ****... and usually never try to get more then one swipe in. This means the lag really doesn't matter.
Then again the best of the best fades i know are total focus ****... and usually never try to get more then one swipe in. This means the lag really doesn't matter.
Well, for many other fades that do not use focus, such as myself, or 1-hive-movement fades, the high ping shotgun combination is lethal.
Just today in a scrim, I was combating againts two high ping shotgunners, I decided to leave the battle with 200/85 hp, as I blinked away clear out of shotgun range, I magically died. I thought I was ambushed by a hiding marine somewhere else, this was not the case. The laggy shotgunners had their last shots register after I had already left.
It's sad really, because laggy shotgunners force aggressive fades like myself to turn into hit and runners in fear that you may be getting pummelled and may not notice it until it is too late.
Just today in a scrim, I was combating againts two high ping shotgunners, I decided to leave the battle with 200/85 hp, as I blinked away clear out of shotgun range, I magically died. I thought I was ambushed by a hiding marine somewhere else, this was not the case. The laggy shotgunners had their last shots register after I had already left.
It's sad really, because laggy shotgunners force aggressive fades like myself to turn into hit and runners in fear that you may be getting pummelled and may not notice it until it is too late.
| QUOTE (comrade @ May 28 2005, 10:49 PM) |
| I don't know but this is pretty funny www.knifegaming.com/stuff/spaniards.zip |
56k ftw.
it's not about rates/connection, it's just an net code bug ;r.
| QUOTE |
| I magically died. I thought I was ambushed by a hiding marine somewhere else, this was not the case. The laggy shotgunners had their last shots register after I had already left. |
That's precisely what happens to me.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.