Mouse
May 21 2005, 10:41 AM
The basic aim of this idea is to give the commander/gorge a NPC unit that they can utilise for the more mundane tasks (and to partially compensate for an unresponsive team).
Nanite Cloud
This unit can be created at any marine resourse tower. As the name suggests, creating the nanite cloud involves diverting the res flow of that tower into the cloud.
While the Nanite cloud is building, the res flow of its host node into the ceases. Once created, the nanite cloud can be controlled by the commander like a normal RTS unit.
The abilities of the cloud are context sensitive:
If the cloud is in range of a damaged structure, it will attempt to use the res stored within it to 'weld' the structure.
If the cloud is in range of an unbuilt structure it will attempt to build it.
If the cloud is in range of an injured marine, it will attempt to resupply (health, ammo, armour) the marine.
If the cloud is in range of an alien player, structure or bacteria swarm, it will attack it (electricity).
Bacteria Swarm
Unlike the Nanite Cloud, a bacteria swarm can only be created by the gorge ability Healspray. The function of it differs slightly too. When created, the swarm forms a cloud around the gorge until it is able to 'see' (direct line of sight and within a certain range) something that needs doing.
If the swarm sees an injured player/structure it will attempt to heal it.
If the swarm sees an unbuilt structure (except hive) it will attempt to build it.
If the swarm sees a nanite cloud, it will attack it.
If the swarm sees a marine node, it will hijack its resflow.
Cloud/Swarm Magnitude
The size of both the nanite cloud and the bacteria swarm is determined by how long it is given to build. For every 'tick' that the cloud/swarm is given to build, its size increases by one 'unit'. Each action listed above spends one or more units of the cloud/swarm.
Cloud vs Swarm
Combat between these two units is a relatively simple affair; every tick they destroy one unit of the opposing cloud/swarm until one of them dissapates.
Cloud/Swarm vs Everything Else
Considering their microscopic nature, the swarm and cloud can only be damaged by explosive weapons (GL, HG, Siege(?), acid rocket, xenocide, bilebomb).
Scythe
May 21 2005, 10:48 AM
| QUOTE (IRC) |
<PS_M|Away> know what would make NS awesomer <PS_M|Away> if the bacteria/nanites were controllable units <PS_M|Away> and by controllable, I mean indirectly <PS_M|Away> NPC units <Scythe-> ... <Scythe-> "<Nanite> Zug zug!" <Scythe-> "<Nanite> Daboo!" |
"If the swarm sees a marine node, it will hijack its resflow."
:s
I dunno.
--Scythe--
Security
May 21 2005, 11:49 AM
Marines should be able to research a antibiotikum/penicillin update against the bacteria though.
Just joking

But I like the Idea.
RobB
May 21 2005, 02:59 PM
If you provide the ai routines, it will be properly going in.
No, wait, the server could crash for the increased heavy load of routines to run...
there are 9++ resnodes on most if not all maps, and the whole alienteam can go gorge...
25 AI units would be a hell to compensate lagwise.
Mouse
May 21 2005, 03:27 PM
@RobB: I can't imagine the ai routines would have to be anything spectacular. By limiting the 'auto goto' aspect of the swarm/cloud to line of sight you've already cut out a decent amount of path-finding code. Excusing my ignorance of the codebase; I can't imagine that the actual 'AI' required by the swarm would exceed 100 or so lines of code.
Also, one thing I neglected to mention in my initial post. When two swarms or two nanite clouds meet, they merge.
@Scythe: err, valid point, I'm not quite sure what I was thinking.
RobB
May 21 2005, 03:53 PM
the clouds are completely self sentient i.e. not player ordered?
If so, the clouds would need to be not able to go through walls or you have a very interesting problem of the "crap factor" (features that are only annoying). And this route calculation in itself can be a pain.
Wouldn't this also count against the entity limit?
Koulnis
May 21 2005, 05:56 PM
I think that this should be released by a lifeform and let it have a duration of 30 seconds or so to do whatever.
And, it can only travel x units away from the lifeform it spawned from.
Marines can release it from a canister.
Mouse
May 22 2005, 12:48 AM
@RobB: Well the swarm follows gorges for the most part and the only time it stops following a gorge is when it sees something that needs doing, then it moves in a straight line to that thing. As for the nanite swarm, it only moves to where the commander waypoints it.
So no, the cloud isn't sentient in the slightest and the 'sentinence' of the swarm is very limited.
As for moving through walls. Considering they're both formless clouds, I can't see why they'd have to be restricted by walls. Either way it'd only be an issue for the Nanite cloud as the commander can manually waypoint it into the void (this can be rectified by preventing the nanite cloud from follong any waypoints that end in the void).
Perhaps the Nanite cloud can use resource nodes as 'phase gates', finding the closest resource node to its current location, moving to it; finding the resource node closest to the waypoint, teleporting to it; moving to the waypoint.
TommyVercetti
May 22 2005, 01:50 AM
This sounds like a good idea, though the Marine version is clearly more powerful than that of the aliens. Can these things be damaged by combat classes? What if the Marines have more res than the aliens, couldn't they just keep spawning clouds until the Gorges are out of res and then shock them to death? Are they just sprites/particle effects, or do they have a model that can be blocked and otherwise interacted with? What's to stop the Commander from placing a phase in a Hive and sending a cloud in? Could you simply drop a cloud in an area and let it take over resupply? Very powerful. Meanwhile, the Gorge is stuck with a cloud hovering around his head that basically serves as a little assistant that would do little more than help him build and heal a bit faster. Even if this was going to be implemented, the toll on the Marines res flow would have to be far greater than the amount of res it would cost the Gorge to spawn one of these NPCs. There is also the problem of the Half-Life engine. NS already pushes it to the limit. I'm almost certain that this would HAVE to be on the Source version. Even then, if the AI is complicated enough for the nanite cloud to do all of those things, it would tax the server to have all these NPCs running or floating around.
I'll try and think of some solutions to all the problems I can see, though. This sounds like a very interesting idea to experiment with, and I'll help get it ready for action.
Breakthrough
May 22 2005, 02:50 AM
I don't think that NPC's should be put into NS when it's come this far - it just doesn't seem to fit in. With any addition (especially AI), more problems are sure to arise.
I vote no.
BulletHead
May 22 2005, 02:51 AM
Save this for NS Source and it'd be kickin
Breakthrough
May 22 2005, 02:55 AM
| QUOTE (BulletHead @ May 21 2005, 09:51 PM) |
Save this for NS Source and it'd be kickin |
Yeah, I think the AI in Source is way more developed too. That way, you can have a single-player game for NS also.
Mouse
May 22 2005, 02:57 AM
@TommyVercetti: In theory the commander could indeed rely on nanite clouds for everything, however the main limitation is that they require res to be built.
For example, if a commander let a cloud build for a minute, it would have used 15 res and have a magnitude of 15.
Now lets have a look at the abilities of the nanite cloud.
For the purposes of this example I'll expand upon the description of these abilities to show the limitations of them
| QUOTE ("") |
If the cloud is in range of a damaged structure or player low on armour, it will attempt to use the res stored within to 'weld' it. (repairs at the same rate as the welder; uses one res per tick) If the cloud is in range of an unbuilt structure it will attempt to build it. (builds at the same rate as one marine; uses one res per tick) If the cloud is in range of an injured marine, it will attempt to resupply (health, ammo) the marine. (25hp/1 ammopack; uses one res per tick) If the cloud is in range of an alien player, structure or bacteria swarm, it will attack it (electricity). (same damage as elec TF/node; uses one res per tick) |
Now returning to our size 15 cloud, assuming that nothing interfered with it; it could build for a minute, weld for a minute, dispense 375hp and 15 ammo packs or do 450 damage (assuming a bolt does 30hp).
All of these tasks would make the cloud dissapate after one minute.
The main advantage that Bacteria Swarm has over Nanite Cloud is it only requires energy to make. As mentioned in my first post, when a swarm and cloud meet, they cancel each other out and both decrease in magnitude until one dissapates. So a gorge with healspray can destroy a nanite cloud relatively easily.
It recently occured to me that the introduction of the nanite cloud would make elec TFs/nodes redundant and would also help to weed out that endgame loveshack.
Solus
May 22 2005, 03:15 AM
I'd like to see the visuals of this in NS : SOURCE

You could have the gas effect where everything becomes a blurry distortion with little glowing bits inside it

or other effects unforeseen yet
Winfield
May 22 2005, 03:34 AM
Perhaps if the bacta (

) cloud used 1 res and was BUILT using healspray, that would help curb spam from gorges sittin on a MT. Also, make the nanite cloud a 'dumb' unit; the commander has to manually send every action instead of the cloud being automated, just like a normal unit. IE: if it is welding a RT, and a bacta cloud comes along, the commander must tell it to attack the cloud, otherwise it will just continue what it is doing. Likewise, the gorge must use a special command to release its cloud at a target (rine, rt, etc).
I'd like to see them be able to build, but that's it. Quite frankly though, I don't think they're neccessary at all. The game is complicated enough for new players - adding this extra (unneccessary) layer might throw a few people off. Additionally, I don't see clouds as being particularly useful in competitive gameplay, given res flow is so tight for both marines and aliens.
typical_skeleton
May 22 2005, 07:40 AM
Wow, isn't this going against the very concept of NS?
I'm sad to see the idea of NPCs even suggested here. Babblers notwithstanding (they were melee only units, and horrible at that. Also, removed from the game), NS is about teamwork, one of its initial selling points was that the commander would command real players, and this was innovative.
IMO, the idea of adding "worker drones" to the game is going backwards. Not to mention that the idea seems well outside the scope of NS in its current state, would turn the flow of the game and balance upside down, and isn't even very feasible to begin with. Plus it doesn't pertain to any specific gameplay elements or gameplay problems that NS suffers from.
So yeah, I'd say this is a bad idea.
EDIT:
One reason babblers were removed was due to server stress. Babblers were less intelligent than these "clouds". They moved only in a straight line, and would attack when they could.
Having semi-intelligent "clouds" running around, building things, welding things, etc... yeah, I'm guessing server stress would be the result.
RobB
May 22 2005, 09:04 AM
Wasn't there a game that had 2 teams, and the players concentrated completely on war against the other team? There where one commander on each team, commanding npcs to build and those comms could build all the stuff and give money to the players so they can upgrade themselfs...
Well, this game was cool, because it was intended this way from the very first second.
Maveric
May 22 2005, 11:00 AM
| QUOTE (RobB @ May 22 2005, 01:04 AM) |
Wasn't there a game that had 2 teams, and the players concentrated completely on war against the other team? There where one commander on each team, commanding npcs to build and those comms could build all the stuff and give money to the players so they can upgrade themselfs... Well, this game was cool, because it was intended this way from the very first second. |
That concept has been replicated thousands of times in RTS games like WarCraft 3, and just about every game that lets you trade resources and/or units.

And, since everyone is so keen to point out the faults of it, i'll point out a few of the things it "fixes"
1. Reduces Commander's need to tell one of his trigger-fingered marines to build something.
2. Lets the Commander command
better his marines in
battle, as the result of 1.
3. Lets Gorges put something up that isn't a DC, and will heal players.
4. Lets Gorges spend some more of their res to build the resource tower faster.
5. Games with lower player counts are a bit more ballanced (this makes more "hands" available to do work; in big games it wont really matter)
And if everyone is so damned afraid of it breaking your precious servers and melting the CPU/RAM, just make it a secondary constructable resource for the marines, and a large stationary area-of-effect building that moves with the gorge (hindering
that gorges building abilities, mind you)
- This way whenever a building is damaged or in need of building, the Marine Commander can select "Auto-build" which will cost [x amount] of Nanite clouds, and the only actual team-resource for the aliens which isn't used by players but is instead used continously whenever something is damaged or building, or whatever.
It's a good idea, it just needs a bit of optimizing... It doesn't need to be AI NPCs.

And to hell with the thought that nubbies "dont know how" or "get confused". They'll get it eventually, especially if something (the manual) and someone (a
kind and experienced NS player) tells them how.
RobB
May 22 2005, 02:49 PM
| QUOTE (Maveric @ May 22 2005, 12:00 PM) |
That concept has been replicated thousands of times in RTS games like WarCraft 3, and just about every game that lets you trade resources and/or units. |
since when is Warcraft 3 an Egoshooter?
PRTe
May 22 2005, 04:26 PM
since
a) i think this partially removes the reliance of comms on marines and vise versa
b) i think it would take a tremendous amount of work to be added
c) it would probably require some time to get it balanced
d) i don't like ideas of NPCs in NS, other than babblers
i vote no
MamboKing
May 22 2005, 04:43 PM
An interesting idea, but it sounds like a pain to balance it. (Build times on either sieges or adv research would prolly be increased, for example.)
Edit:I don't think bacteria swarm is that good, you'd have to nerf the gorge to compensate for it. I like gorge the way it is now.
typical_skeleton
May 22 2005, 06:46 PM
| QUOTE |
1. Reduces Commander's need to tell one of his trigger-fingered marines to build something. 2. Lets the Commander command better his marines in battle, as the result of 1. 3. Lets Gorges put something up that isn't a DC, and will heal players. 4. Lets Gorges spend some more of their res to build the resource tower faster. 5. Games with lower player counts are a bit more ballanced (this makes more "hands" available to do work; in big games it wont really matter) |
1) Isn't this what NS is all about? Why would removing this be a good thing? Commanders are meant to rely on their player-controlled marines who have a mind of their own. Teamwork.
2) Commander doesn't have to "command his marines in battle" that much. I mean, clicking a location and saying "go here" isn't that hard, and good commanders can do both jobs at once. Removing commander and marine interaction is a BAD thing, not a good thing. Adding expendable "robots" to do the work marines should be doing (such as securing far off nodes) will hurt the dynamics of this game severely. Besides, who wants to fight alongside a bunch of robots?
3) Gorges have healspray. Why would we want them to "put something up" that isn't DC and heals players? That's part of going DC first, it's part of balance. Without DC, aliens either have to find a gorge or move to a hive (except Fades at hive 2). This, too, is teamwork, it's part of the game, it's balanced. Also, aliens already have innate regen, why would they need yet another way to heal themselves?
4) Not sure what this means. If Gorges need to build faster, they work together. If you mean SOONER, then the entire team needs to work together to secure more nodes (see a trend here? all player-based teamwork, the thing that makes NS work).
5) This isn't really true. In lower player games, everything is on a smaller scale. So for example, aliens don't need five nodes, maybe only two or three, and so forth.
EDIT: I just noticed you suggested an auto-build.
So let me get this straight. You want to include a structure that must be built so that it can automatically build structures?
No. The concept of "auto build" is a terrible one. How about we just take building out altogether. You drop a structure, and around five seconds later, it automatically deploys.
This is way better than forcing marines to work together to build structures up. Nevermind that it removes a huge chunk of the game.
Don't support this idea just because a mod made it. It's a bad idea, plain and simple. We don't need bots in NS.
RobB
May 22 2005, 07:23 PM
btw is it storywise not possible to autobuild, or the nanites have a high possibility of going nuts. ok, background storys can be rewritten, but this one is there for a reason, don't you think, too?
Zunni
May 23 2005, 06:57 PM
Sorry Mouse.. I too am not a fan of the idea..
Part of the commanders job is to manage his marines in all aspects of the game, not just in the "LET'S KILL STUFF" mode.... There's a reason we consider this game an RTS/FPS, and the RTS portion of it is the marines/gorges building structures.. I mean, imagine instead of having to build your nodes you can instead allow RFK to power your nano-cloud to rebuild any nodes you may have lost... ANd having the 2 marines or so that would normally do this be able to be back in the fight just means more RFK on both sides to sustain them..
However, it's an original idea, so I'll move it and let people have more of an opportunity to discuss..
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