We all know there are guidelines on this but i was wondering what everyone else felt on that matter. Should marines be allowed to structure block? If so why so, if not why not. I'd like to have this dicussion because of recent events that have happened including being banned from a public server and having a team leave after we placed structures to stop their fades entering cargo. CAL says it's fine, other leagues say it's okay if you're not blocking exits but rather just the doorway, but where do we draw the line on when we're randomly placing in a doorway and when we're trying to stop something getting into a room.
And... GO!
EDIT: I imagine an early lock on this but meh, seems like a good discussion to me!
Full Version: Structure Blocking
Unknown Worlds Forums > Natural Selection > Natural Selection Organized Play > General Competitive Discussion
I say it's legal as long as there is a way for skulks to get past it.
i find it unfair as soon as it happens "in action"
a fade cant react to blocking, it just happens to fast and done correct nearly guaranty a kill
but when you block a doorway in advance i see it as legal as long as you dont overdo it
a fade cant react to blocking, it just happens to fast and done correct nearly guaranty a kill
but when you block a doorway in advance i see it as legal as long as you dont overdo it
It's fine, within limits.
I go with the notion of as long as a skulk can get through its alright.
It certainly doesn't hurt balance right now 
It was my understanding that the official stance was that structure blocking is permitted unless:
...which is why only rts can be placed on nodes. Personally, I think if a comm wants to waste res on a CC which can be used for shotguns/upgrades, that's fine. Blocking a retreating onos is a valid strategy, and I don't see how it's "exploiting" anything.
- It blocks a node
- It blocks a vent
...which is why only rts can be placed on nodes. Personally, I think if a comm wants to waste res on a CC which can be used for shotguns/upgrades, that's fine. Blocking a retreating onos is a valid strategy, and I don't see how it's "exploiting" anything.
I justify it because the marines have to spend the res to do it.
20 res could drop 2 more shotguns which has about as good a chance as killing a fade as a cc block. Fades can pretty much always get around cc blocks.
As for the onos, you just have to be careful, and pick your battles. Don't go where you can get messed up by a cc unless you have adren and stomp.
20 res could drop 2 more shotguns which has about as good a chance as killing a fade as a cc block. Fades can pretty much always get around cc blocks.
As for the onos, you just have to be careful, and pick your battles. Don't go where you can get messed up by a cc unless you have adren and stomp.
| QUOTE (MrBen @ May 11 2005, 02:53 PM) |
| CAL says it's fine, other leagues say it's okay if you're not blocking exits but rather just the doorway, |
http://www.massrelaw.org/glossary/d.htm
ats a building right ?
DOOR - A sliding or hinged structure, covering an opening to a cupboard, closet, room, building, etc. May be used as an entrance or exit. Usually constructed of wood, glass, or metal, depending on its structure.
so many people say ok as long as a skulk can get passed but what if there are no skulks ? i'd say its ok yo a point as long as you can attack with spores past it but what if the rines are all in HA ?
its a dirty tactic. Still a tactic but not one i would use or condon it at all i mean an old tactic i had that worked well if you had a good rine team a long time ago was to disble alien rts near there hive with cc at the start of game.
i'll have to whatch the demos of the match to give you my say on if it was/was not under hand.
| QUOTE (surprise @ May 11 2005, 03:05 PM) |
| i find it unfair as soon as it happens "in action" a fade cant react to blocking, it just happens to fast and done correct nearly guaranty a kill but when you block a doorway in advance i see it as legal as long as you dont overdo it |
there are no "guarantees" and not every block is done "correctly"
it requires skill to time and place the block.
however blocking which prohibits ANY ability for the alien to move past should be deemed illegal.
blocking vents = no
blocking small doorways = no
anything else = who cares, waste of res
blocking small doorways = no
anything else = who cares, waste of res
Blocking was a lot more fair when CCs couldn't be recycled. Then it was a 20 res investment for something which didn't do anything except obstruct movement. Now you can recycle it afterwards and get 16 of that 20 back. 4 res to block an Onos or whatever is a lot more exploitive.
Of course, you could always just use recyclable TFs to block instead--but they're not quite as big (easier to jump over), and they only take 1250(?) damage to wipe out instead of 5000.
Of course, you could always just use recyclable TFs to block instead--but they're not quite as big (easier to jump over), and they only take 1250(?) damage to wipe out instead of 5000.
On the one hand:
Well CC blocking sucks, because it just completely removes the practicality of onos late game vs high res marines... 2 or even 1 hmg with a doulbe cc block kills an onos EVERY time.
On the other hand:
Onos in matches/scrims really aren't very skill based. Sure you have to be able to aim gore/devour, bhop (silent) but there is no speedy movement (i.e. blink, flying, leap.) So really i dont think it's skill based enough to warrant illegalizing structure blocking. And in the case that rines don thave eonugh res, onos are still powerful game enders. that 6 res to drop a cc and recycle is actually 20 res right now, which could be 2 sgs or a hmg/welder
In summation: Balance the game by playing it. You shouldnt' contemplate aspects like this, as it would severly adjust the balance of the game. It's good for marines to have something to spend on when they have 3/3 and 6 ha hmgs and half the map vs 2 hives.
Well CC blocking sucks, because it just completely removes the practicality of onos late game vs high res marines... 2 or even 1 hmg with a doulbe cc block kills an onos EVERY time.
On the other hand:
Onos in matches/scrims really aren't very skill based. Sure you have to be able to aim gore/devour, bhop (silent) but there is no speedy movement (i.e. blink, flying, leap.) So really i dont think it's skill based enough to warrant illegalizing structure blocking. And in the case that rines don thave eonugh res, onos are still powerful game enders. that 6 res to drop a cc and recycle is actually 20 res right now, which could be 2 sgs or a hmg/welder
In summation: Balance the game by playing it. You shouldnt' contemplate aspects like this, as it would severly adjust the balance of the game. It's good for marines to have something to spend on when they have 3/3 and 6 ha hmgs and half the map vs 2 hives.
I've just watched the demo from the match which started all this topic (ns_tanith)
Basically a fully teched marine team (mt/3/3/ha/jp/hmg etc.) couldn't beat an mc/sc 2 hive alien team.
Everytime they tried to push cargo the comm had to beacon to save what was left of the ha/jp or they were killed completely.
This happened several times. It looked like the aliens were about to make a push and finish the game as a third hive was going up and marines were losing what rts they had left when marines attacked again.
However this time, upon entering cargo, a tf was placed along with 2 ccs.
These ccs blocked both entrances out of fusion hive meaning that any life form trying to enter back through these would die and getting past them was slow too.
As a result of this the marines were able to siege fusion with ease.
BASICALLY, the marine team would not have won without the ccs blocking the small entrances to fusion.
Should that be a deciding factor in a game? Doesn't need an answer does it.
Basically a fully teched marine team (mt/3/3/ha/jp/hmg etc.) couldn't beat an mc/sc 2 hive alien team.
Everytime they tried to push cargo the comm had to beacon to save what was left of the ha/jp or they were killed completely.
This happened several times. It looked like the aliens were about to make a push and finish the game as a third hive was going up and marines were losing what rts they had left when marines attacked again.
However this time, upon entering cargo, a tf was placed along with 2 ccs.
These ccs blocked both entrances out of fusion hive meaning that any life form trying to enter back through these would die and getting past them was slow too.
As a result of this the marines were able to siege fusion with ease.
BASICALLY, the marine team would not have won without the ccs blocking the small entrances to fusion.
Should that be a deciding factor in a game? Doesn't need an answer does it.
Two threads at Tactical Gamer discussing the matter:
http://tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=8102
http://tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=35191
My thoughts:
http://tacticalgamer.com/showpost.php?p=154053&postcount=22
http://tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=8102
http://tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=35191
My thoughts:
http://tacticalgamer.com/showpost.php?p=154053&postcount=22
| QUOTE |
| It's not about timing as far as I'm concerned. It's about intent. If your intent is to trap an alien with a structure which both wasn't there when the melee began and which serves no other purpose, you're in the wrong regardless of timing. It costs as little as two resources (when you consider RFK) to kill a 50- or 75-resource unit. And that is relevant only if you require reasoning beyond the departure such practice is from the game's design. |
In the discussion at TG, we agreed to discuss this topic using two distinct verbs: "blocking" and "trapping". I think this thread would benefit from the same agreement, as it makes perfectly clear what action and intent is being discussed.
| QUOTE (comrade @ May 11 2005, 04:41 PM) |
| blocking vents = no blocking small doorways = no anything else = who cares, waste of res |
agreed, all I can think about reading this thread is that entrance from "big Room" to a hive in ns_orbital_cal. 1 well placed CC can block a fade and prevent skulks from direct access to a very easy seige spot.
as long as a skulk can get by it is fair game
| QUOTE (Amplifier @ May 11 2005, 05:24 PM) |
| as long as a skulk can get by it is fair game |
skulks?! nah, as long as parasites can get past its fine.
| QUOTE (MrBen @ May 11 2005, 01:53 PM) |
| EDIT: I imagine an early lock on this but meh, seems like a good discussion to me! |
Same here.
adapt or die?! LOCK THREAD PLZ
As long as a skulk can get through? So in the instance of fully teched HA/HMG I described earlier, as long as a SKULK can get through into cargo everything is ok.
There is nothing wrong with basically incapacitating higher life forms?
Excellent guys, keep it up.
As long as a skulk can get through? So in the instance of fully teched HA/HMG I described earlier, as long as a SKULK can get through into cargo everything is ok.
There is nothing wrong with basically incapacitating higher life forms?
Excellent guys, keep it up.
A ducking fade can get anywhere a skulk can.
| QUOTE ("Zunni") |
The development team is consistently striving to make sure that players of the game are aware of exploitive behavior that goes against the intended game play objectives. So to that end, we wanted to mention our opinion about Structure Blocking. Currently there are 3 major types of Structure Blocking; Type 1: Blocking Vents: The NS team believes that blocking a ground level vent from the outside or building within a vent is exploitive and are investigating measures to remove it from the game. Type 2: Blocking Corridors, Hallways, Doors: This includes dropping marine structures in locations to block doorways. We consider this to be a valid strategy, and if the marine team has the resources to accomplish this, then that's their decision. Type 3: Blocking Enemies: This generally consists of dropping a structure on or directly beside a retreating foe and preventing his progress. We believe this to also be an exploit and are investigating measures to remove it from the game. We will continue working towards eliminating all sources of exploitive behavior in Natural Selection to ensure our players have the best experience in the game as possible. |
As long as a skulk can get by has always worked, otherwise you have to be totally against it or totally for it since there is no way to measure it.
Opinions always differ, but if you're going to go with whatever the devs think is fair play, blocking cargo with two commchairs is fine.
| QUOTE |
| Type 3: Blocking Enemies: This generally consists of dropping a structure on or directly beside a retreating foe and preventing his progress. We believe this to also be an exploit and are investigating measures to remove it from the game. |
Last time I checked structures can not be dropped onto an alien. Atleast I haven't seen it, maybe someone else has? Skulk/Fade/Lerk in this dropping problem consists zero problems to manuever out of the way. Dropping structres in the middle of a hallway only hinders the Onos and Gorge the most. Although who in their right mind would block a gorge is beyond me. Most blocks are to trap Onos, yet I do not see them that much.
| QUOTE (Kmart @ May 11 2005, 06:46 PM) |
| A ducking fade can get anywhere a skulk can. |
Yes fades can get through but not half as smoothly as before. They will get stuck about 60% more often. Fades were happily going in and out of the doorways before the cc's went down in the above situation, but when the CC's went down, the doorway size became about 45% of what it was before and the fades died every attempt they had at retreating.. making the the fades virtually pointless.
Onos' just cant get through at all, making them pointless also.
leaving skulks and lerks to take on the HA/JP/HMG rines with full upgrades in a room the size of cargo.
(dont even raise the idea that onos can kill the CC's that are defended by JP/HMG'ers, before a tf and enough sieges are set up to d3stroy the hive.. not to mention the CC's would just be rebuilt as straight after)
| QUOTE (gham @ May 11 2005, 06:45 PM) |
| adapt or die?! LOCK THREAD PLZ As long as a skulk can get through? So in the instance of fully teched HA/HMG I described earlier, as long as a SKULK can get through into cargo everything is ok. There is nothing wrong with basically incapacitating higher life forms? Excellent guys, keep it up. |
If the comm has 40-60 res to block all entrances in a room you are in trouble anyway
Incapacitating? If a skulk can get by so can bile bomb, have a gorge bb the siege. Adapt
If fades can't blink above a CC in a door that is blocked then I suggest they go play TFC concing maps until there eyes bleed. Fading is so simple to get out of those situations its not even funny.
Slot 2 - Blink
+lookup aka look at the cieling
Look back foward
Blink
You have just gotten past a CC block as a Fade. Can be done in less than a second.
For more advanced Fades they can fly half the room and fly above the CC easily. I can show you
Slot 2 - Blink
+lookup aka look at the cieling
Look back foward
Blink
You have just gotten past a CC block as a Fade. Can be done in less than a second.
For more advanced Fades they can fly half the room and fly above the CC easily. I can show you
| QUOTE (DuoGodOfDeath @ May 11 2005, 08:00 PM) | ||
Last time I checked structures can not be dropped onto an alien. Atleast I haven't seen it, maybe someone else has? Skulk/Fade/Lerk in this dropping problem consists zero problems to manuever out of the way. |
This was an old problem from before players had their own personal no-build radius. Back in 2.1 and before, you could drop a building directly on an alien's (or marine's) head, and the unfortunate alien couldn't move at all until the building was destroyed (or he took advantage of a /stuck plugin).
I don't understand why people keep saying that it's fine as long as the Marines have the res to accomplish this. I'd be pretty damn surprised if the Marines didn't have 4 res to block...
It is worth 2 medpacks for CC blocks. 2 medpacks to take down 50 or 75 res? Hmm.
It is worth 2 medpacks for CC blocks. 2 medpacks to take down 50 or 75 res? Hmm.
some servers (like the one i play on) if you block with CC, it gets removed instantly by the admins.
Because of the number of res in custom maps, its just too unfair.
Because of the number of res in custom maps, its just too unfair.
There's at least one easy way to solve this, although it would reduce the amount of relocations possible to carry out.
| QUOTE (2 of Eight @ May 11 2005, 08:56 PM) |
| I don't understand why people keep saying that it's fine as long as the Marines have the res to accomplish this. I'd be pretty damn surprised if the Marines didn't have 4 res to block... It is worth 2 medpacks for CC blocks. 2 medpacks to take down 50 or 75 res? Hmm. |
What the hell are you talking about, ccs are 20 res, not 2
He's talking about net cost.
Basic maths is your friend.
Basic maths is your friend.
| QUOTE (Amplifier @ May 11 2005, 08:35 PM) | ||
If the comm has 40-60 res to block all entrances in a room you are in trouble anyway Incapacitating? If a skulk can get by so can bile bomb, have a gorge bb the siege. Adapt |
both teams had high res flow and we where constantly killing marine res. Aliens had 4+ res towers with onos', fades and as many lerks as needed. So no we where NOT in trouble. The marines had a better res flow when attempting to siege from cargo on their other attempts but we faught them off.
So GL's and JP HMG's against gorge who bile? Yeh thats going to work. They can adapt with welders too you know. If you render the onos useless where onos' seriously effect the outcome of a situation.. thats fine because you can bile bomb? what if the bile doesnt reach all the sieges?
And Duo about your fading thing - Yes its not impossible to get through the doorway but still there is a lot more chance of flipping up, especially when retreating from JP/HA HMG'ers. Our fades could get through but it wasnt a smooth process and that killed them.
If the cc's didnt get put down im confident the game would of had a different outcome, but more importantly it just removed the fun from the game as we had virtually no chance to defend the hive properly.
| QUOTE (Grendel @ May 12 2005, 03:44 AM) |
| There's at least one easy way to solve this, although it would reduce the amount of relocations possible to carry out. |
Ghost structures would work better IMHO.
put building restrictions on map doorways/vents for CC's?
Duo I understand that yes it is possible for fades to get through but there's no way you're going to get in and out perfectly every time. Even the absolute best of you won't make it every time.
As a mc/sc fade, that one time you don't means that you're dead to a lvl 3 HMG.
I just don't think a game should have to come down to blocking with ccs.
Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn?
Remember how you felt.
As a mc/sc fade, that one time you don't means that you're dead to a lvl 3 HMG.
I just don't think a game should have to come down to blocking with ccs.
Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn?
Remember how you felt.
| QUOTE (2 of Eight @ May 11 2005, 08:56 PM) |
| I don't understand why people keep saying that it's fine as long as the Marines have the res to accomplish this. I'd be pretty damn surprised if the Marines didn't have 4 res to block... It is worth 2 medpacks for CC blocks. 2 medpacks to take down 50 or 75 res? Hmm. |
what?
| QUOTE (Swiftspear @ May 12 2005, 05:07 AM) | ||
Ghost structures would work better IMHO. |
Give the man a cookie, that's what I was thinking as I was reading this.
They're just supposed to be projections anyways until they're built.
| QUOTE (gham @ May 12 2005, 08:26 AM) |
| Duo I understand that yes it is possible for fades to get through but there's no way you're going to get in and out perfectly every time. Even the absolute best of you won't make it every time. As a mc/sc fade, that one time you don't means that you're dead to a lvl 3 HMG. I just don't think a game should have to come down to blocking with ccs. Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn? Remember how you felt. |
You did it a couple a weeks ago, and now suddenly you make a full u-turn?
The arguement goes both ways.
Regardless, I'm not really bothered about this, for once I have no opinion on the matter...
I wasn't consulted before action was taken tjosan, I wouldn't be here against it if I supported it.
I'm totally with Grendel here, there should be a solution to stop it before it becomes too common in late game when marines cannot beat aliens any other way.
It would limit relocations but how often do you see them?
I'm totally with Grendel here, there should be a solution to stop it before it becomes too common in late game when marines cannot beat aliens any other way.
It would limit relocations but how often do you see them?
| QUOTE |
| And Duo about your fading thing - Yes its not impossible to get through the doorway but still there is a lot more chance of flipping up, especially when retreating from JP/HA HMG'ers. Our fades could get through but it wasnt a smooth process and that killed them. |
Practice more than. With the 2 years of conc maps under my belt I find it extremely easy to fly around and get through blocked doors.
| QUOTE |
| Duo I understand that yes it is possible for fades to get through but there's no way you're going to get in and out perfectly every time. Even the absolute best of you won't make it every time. |
Well there was this one time when we played Terror on Tanith and they did a double CC door block in Cargo. I was flying in and out pretty easily with just Focus.
| QUOTE |
| Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn? Remember how you felt. |
Eh?
tjosan disliking CC blocking has nothing to do with mine and buggeh's decision to CC block. I don't want to discuss the details of specific matches anyway, lets not play the what if the marine team hadn't blocked game or we could start changing the match from the very beginning and NOTHING would be the same.
Personally i've always felt that if the commander is smart enough and has enough res to do it then he can. It might be a net 4 res lose, but if an alien team allows a commander to hold enough to have a spare 20 res needed in the first place then fine, the marine team also has to be alert and able to react to the situation, i've seen plenty of failed block attempts. I've died as a fade to a block, i've never felt it was an exploit, i've always felt if the commander can do it then it's our fault for poor node pressure or i just give props to the comm for being on the ball.
shrug.
Personally i've always felt that if the commander is smart enough and has enough res to do it then he can. It might be a net 4 res lose, but if an alien team allows a commander to hold enough to have a spare 20 res needed in the first place then fine, the marine team also has to be alert and able to react to the situation, i've seen plenty of failed block attempts. I've died as a fade to a block, i've never felt it was an exploit, i've always felt if the commander can do it then it's our fault for poor node pressure or i just give props to the comm for being on the ball.
shrug.
A spare 20/40 res is absolutely naff all. HA/HMG/WELDER or double cc block.
I wonder..
20 or even 40 res for a) a lot of extra time to build structures and b)a big increase in the chance to kill higher life forms.
I wonder..
20 or even 40 res for a) a lot of extra time to build structures and b)a big increase in the chance to kill higher life forms.
if a comm has 40 rez to spare, theres a problem.
You keep saying 4 rez per chair. and that is half true. While yes the net is, it costs him 4 rez. To purchase the Comm chair for awhile. he has to invest 20 rez into it. but chances are there are 2 or 3 doors, thus. your looking at 40-60 rez intital investment.
You keep arguring it cost 4 rez, which I think we all agree with, but its actualy 20 rez to purchase. and I think we all agree that 20-40 rez is alot to spend blocking doorways that any lifeform cept gorge and onos can get around.
You keep saying 4 rez per chair. and that is half true. While yes the net is, it costs him 4 rez. To purchase the Comm chair for awhile. he has to invest 20 rez into it. but chances are there are 2 or 3 doors, thus. your looking at 40-60 rez intital investment.
You keep arguring it cost 4 rez, which I think we all agree with, but its actualy 20 rez to purchase. and I think we all agree that 20-40 rez is alot to spend blocking doorways that any lifeform cept gorge and onos can get around.
The main argument against structure blocking seems to be "it's not fair" or "it's not fun", which simply isn't good enough. This is competitive discussion, a more reasonable statement would be "It isn't balanced", followed by why it isn't balanced. My personal view is that structure blocking is balanced because of the resource, time, and precision required to make it work (try structure blocking in the middle of a hot firefight, it is not a simple issue of point and click to kill a fade with a CC). I also fail to see how that isn't a great example of a commander's fast thinking and adaptability. It punishes aliens for being too bold and not planning far enough ahead to recognize a threat. CC blocking may not be acceptable in public server play due to "it's not fair" or "it's not fun", but public server rules don't quite apply in competitive play. Remember what forum one is in before saying such a statement.
I also believe the standard CAL rules on the issue are fair. My reasoning for this is skulks are the size of lerks and +duck fades as far as the game is concerned, so if a skulk can fit, a +duck fade can fit. The only lifeform that gets jipped is the onos, and I think this is a fair tradeoff for choosing a lifeform with huge stats. It requires the onos to think before taking the leap. Onos balance is something that needs to be addressed at some point, as it really isn't effective except in certain niche situations, and is near useless at hive 1.
I also believe the standard CAL rules on the issue are fair. My reasoning for this is skulks are the size of lerks and +duck fades as far as the game is concerned, so if a skulk can fit, a +duck fade can fit. The only lifeform that gets jipped is the onos, and I think this is a fair tradeoff for choosing a lifeform with huge stats. It requires the onos to think before taking the leap. Onos balance is something that needs to be addressed at some point, as it really isn't effective except in certain niche situations, and is near useless at hive 1.
You're saying that it costs 40-60 res to block a room with CCs at all doorways. And yes, it does... but rarely is it required.
If a fade is escaping in one doorway, suddenly blocking it off will not give it enough time to move to the other doorway; the Marines are, surprise, shooting the fade, and it would be unusual for it to be left with high health.
Asking the aliens to keep the Marines' res down to less than 20 at all times is absolutely ridiculous.
If a fade is escaping in one doorway, suddenly blocking it off will not give it enough time to move to the other doorway; the Marines are, surprise, shooting the fade, and it would be unusual for it to be left with high health.
Asking the aliens to keep the Marines' res down to less than 20 at all times is absolutely ridiculous.
CC blocking hardly messes with Fade play. Heck it can even help the fade by taking a lot of the bullets.
Ya, cc blocking doesnt really effect skilled fades much. But they can make onos useless, since two cc can trap an onos in most hallways you can easly kill it or just keep it out of the way with 40 res(and no matter you say thats ****).
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