Free upgrades are nice. Aliens like them, making them able to handle against early game marines, and overall makes early game rather enjoyable again between two teams. However, it makes the later game much harder for marines (ie skulk+leap+focus+celerity/silence) to the point that aliens become rather buffed.
So rather than trying to introduce a cost that would return skulks to 3.0B5, why not make the first upgrade free, and the next upgrade costs resource? After all, the free upgrades are supposed to balance the early game skulks.
This means:
skulk + celerity = 0 res.
skulk + celerity + focus = 2 res. (or 1, depending on values)
skulk + celerity + focus + cara = 4 res (or 2).
This returns the decision whether to spend resources to get that extra edge in the second upgrade, or wait for fade, without forcing the skulk to run around without any upgrades. This applies to all other lifeforms as well, but really affects skulk the most.
Full Version: Returning The Upgrade Costs
Unknown Worlds Forums > Natural Selection > Natural Selection Discussion > Ideas and Suggestions Forum > Ideas for future versions
hmm cpuld be interesting yes...but if implented i would use a
first up-->free
second up-->1res
third up-->1or2 res
thingy...but it sounds fair..since aliens are quite overpowered atm.
first up-->free
second up-->1res
third up-->1or2 res
thingy...but it sounds fair..since aliens are quite overpowered atm.
i still subscribe tot he "beef up the marines, don't nerf the aliens" school of thought.
=P
=P
| QUOTE (typical skeleton @ May 11 2005, 01:02 PM) |
| i still subscribe tot he "beef up the marines, don't nerf the aliens" school of thought. =P |
I don't see this as a debuff per se. This is what the intent of free upgrades was. They were put in to give the aliens a better start game ... which they do.
but a skulk with two upgrades is very strong. Just look at the listings above. I don't think the intent of free upgrades was to make the mid and end alien games strong. With celerity, focus, and leap even a bad skulk can do well.
Everyone says "buff marines ... don't debuff aliens" yet no one has any decent ideas.
What everyone doesn't see about the "Don't nerf the aliens, beef the marines" argument, is that my beefing the marines, you nerf the aliens. The same is true of the reverse, and nerfing the aliens, actually inadvertently beefs the marines.
Personally, paradoxes aside, I don't really think that a free upgrade would be a fantastic idea (not to reintroduce, as it were), as not only would something like this have an impact on the early game, but it would also affect all stages of the game.
When something as potent a freebie as an upgrade gets thrown about, then the repercussions need to be thought out. Just imagine, the early game skulk gets regeneration, for free, as it were. Not too shabby, from the skulks point of view, as there might not be a gorge around for the heal, or any DC's nearby. Now picture, the mid-game res ****, who goes directly to Onos, does not pass Fade, and does not harrass as Lerk. Now the Onos gets his pick of the upgrades. Lets say he picks Carapace.
Now you have a mid-game Onos, probably with 2 hives, packing a Carapace upgrade.
Not too bad you say? A pack of HMG toting marines would take him, you say?
What about if that Onos takes Redemption, or Regeneration, or Cloaking? Then you get a mid-game Onos, that either regenerates it's life, can't be seen too easily (not until it's too late), or, god forbid, doesn't die when it should, get zapped back to the hive, and survives, not having to spend the 75 resource points, and having earned a bit of RFK in the process. Now that's what I call a buff for aliens.
Like I said, when people start giving apparently valid ideas, we really should be looking at the exploitative side of the change. People by nature exploit any advantage they have, and some changes (like this one, I feel) would start driving people towards being alien, or even worse, away from the game. Clan matches would begin to be more dominated by the alien team, and public games would just be a case of who can hit F2 the quickest, and get on the alien side.
Whoo. Bit long, but I feel that it had to be said.
Personally, paradoxes aside, I don't really think that a free upgrade would be a fantastic idea (not to reintroduce, as it were), as not only would something like this have an impact on the early game, but it would also affect all stages of the game.
When something as potent a freebie as an upgrade gets thrown about, then the repercussions need to be thought out. Just imagine, the early game skulk gets regeneration, for free, as it were. Not too shabby, from the skulks point of view, as there might not be a gorge around for the heal, or any DC's nearby. Now picture, the mid-game res ****, who goes directly to Onos, does not pass Fade, and does not harrass as Lerk. Now the Onos gets his pick of the upgrades. Lets say he picks Carapace.
Now you have a mid-game Onos, probably with 2 hives, packing a Carapace upgrade.
Not too bad you say? A pack of HMG toting marines would take him, you say?
What about if that Onos takes Redemption, or Regeneration, or Cloaking? Then you get a mid-game Onos, that either regenerates it's life, can't be seen too easily (not until it's too late), or, god forbid, doesn't die when it should, get zapped back to the hive, and survives, not having to spend the 75 resource points, and having earned a bit of RFK in the process. Now that's what I call a buff for aliens.
Like I said, when people start giving apparently valid ideas, we really should be looking at the exploitative side of the change. People by nature exploit any advantage they have, and some changes (like this one, I feel) would start driving people towards being alien, or even worse, away from the game. Clan matches would begin to be more dominated by the alien team, and public games would just be a case of who can hit F2 the quickest, and get on the alien side.
Whoo. Bit long, but I feel that it had to be said.
| QUOTE (Lt Patch @ May 11 2005, 02:23 PM) |
| What everyone doesn't see about the "Don't nerf the aliens, beef the marines" argument, is that my beefing the marines, you nerf the aliens. The same is true of the reverse, and nerfing the aliens, actually inadvertently beefs the marines. Personally, paradoxes aside, I don't really think that a free upgrade would be a fantastic idea (not to reintroduce, as it were), as not only would something like this have an impact on the early game, but it would also affect all stages of the game. When something as potent a freebie as an upgrade gets thrown about, then the repercussions need to be thought out. Just imagine, the early game skulk gets regeneration, for free, as it were. Not too shabby, from the skulks point of view, as there might not be a gorge around for the heal, or any DC's nearby. Now picture, the mid-game res ****, who goes directly to Onos, does not pass Fade, and does not harrass as Lerk. Now the Onos gets his pick of the upgrades. Lets say he picks Carapace. Now you have a mid-game Onos, probably with 2 hives, packing a Carapace upgrade. Not too bad you say? A pack of HMG toting marines would take him, you say? What about if that Onos takes Redemption, or Regeneration, or Cloaking? Then you get a mid-game Onos, that either regenerates it's life, can't be seen too easily (not until it's too late), or, god forbid, doesn't die when it should, get zapped back to the hive, and survives, not having to spend the 75 resource points, and having earned a bit of RFK in the process. Now that's what I call a buff for aliens. Like I said, when people start giving apparently valid ideas, we really should be looking at the exploitative side of the change. People by nature exploit any advantage they have, and some changes (like this one, I feel) would start driving people towards being alien, or even worse, away from the game. Clan matches would begin to be more dominated by the alien team, and public games would just be a case of who can hit F2 the quickest, and get on the alien side. Whoo. Bit long, but I feel that it had to be said. |
The resion why people say beef the marines, dont nerf the aliens. Is because Alot of people realy like how the aliens fuction and play out right now.
Personaly I feel the way the aliens play out right now are perfect, and would like to see more Marine Changes than Alien Changes.
That is what people are saying. LT Patch
don't exactly support the idea but i wouldn't mind if it were in game. might balance the game though, but i still think something better can be used for balance
Indeed , the alien side has been perfectly balanced. I think Flayra resorted to black magic to do that 
now leave them alone and improve the marines a bit (grenades , catpacks) if needs be.
now leave them alone and improve the marines a bit (grenades , catpacks) if needs be.
i say no, with no real reason, i just dont like and dont want to see it
Hrm. Should look at this forums more often.
I don't understand why people don't like the idea of buying their second or third upgrades with res. The major reason why upgrades were free so that skulks weren't losing res during the early game with upgrades.
With this system in place, it doesn't remove that. And by the time midgame rolls around, losing 1-2 res to upgrades shouldn't be too much since aliens would have RTs by then. Not to mention RPK from the celerity+focus+leap, the skulk should make the difference in no time.
Why add it? It creates a decision for the skulk to spend resources on the second upgrade. That means marines would end up fighting between lvl 1 upgraded skulks (skulks with one upgrade) and lvl 2 upgraded skulks when the second hive comes up. It gives marine a fighting chance instead of meeting all lvl 2 upgraded skulks all the time. It could still happen, but I think it's a mix between the two when resources come into play.
This'll push midgame balance to the right direction. For those who say there's better ways to balance it, I don't see it. Increasing gestation times... no. Reducing effectiveness of upgrades... no. Increasing marine strength... well, that makes early game marines more powerful. Just tacking on resources requirement for second and third upgrade seems to be the easiest and subtle push towards the right balance.
I don't understand why people don't like the idea of buying their second or third upgrades with res. The major reason why upgrades were free so that skulks weren't losing res during the early game with upgrades.
With this system in place, it doesn't remove that. And by the time midgame rolls around, losing 1-2 res to upgrades shouldn't be too much since aliens would have RTs by then. Not to mention RPK from the celerity+focus+leap, the skulk should make the difference in no time.
Why add it? It creates a decision for the skulk to spend resources on the second upgrade. That means marines would end up fighting between lvl 1 upgraded skulks (skulks with one upgrade) and lvl 2 upgraded skulks when the second hive comes up. It gives marine a fighting chance instead of meeting all lvl 2 upgraded skulks all the time. It could still happen, but I think it's a mix between the two when resources come into play.
This'll push midgame balance to the right direction. For those who say there's better ways to balance it, I don't see it. Increasing gestation times... no. Reducing effectiveness of upgrades... no. Increasing marine strength... well, that makes early game marines more powerful. Just tacking on resources requirement for second and third upgrade seems to be the easiest and subtle push towards the right balance.
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