I would like to see the overal opinion on balance conserning the 3rd hive.


The question is:

If you could tweak the balance any way, should the marine stand a chance when the aliens get all 3 hives up?

In other words, if you could some how only buff the late game of marines to make it so that marine stand a fair chance against 3rd hive aliens if they research EVERYTHING. As I already understand it, Marines Winning against 3 hive aliens is a long shot. But im asking if you could change it, what would it be.

(please note this is conserning competitive play only. In pubs there is too much unorginization on both sides usualy to have stable games.)

Honestly to save me a lot of typing i'll say that Beta 5 was pretty damn balanced. 2 hives aliens it was "Okay, Marines have a chance but they gotta work a bit harder now to achieve that win." 3 hives it was bow down and pray you can hopefully push out with full tech.

Now we have NS final 3. Where 2 hives it is like having 3 hives in Beta 5. It just doesnt cut it and its really annoying.

All in all 3 hives = aliens should win. But if I had to choose which version of NS we should go back to is Beta 5 because that version rocked so hard.

I would personaly like to see it where Aliens Should win at 3rd hive, 75% of the time against full marine tech.

And during 2nd hive up, marines still have a 50/50 chance of winning with a AA 2/2 upgrades. right when the 2nd hive finishes building, and 5 rez nodes.

2 hives in beta 5 was still rapesauce unless the marines had prototech. As for the original question, I think it should be as skill-based as possible.

It still wasn't as bad as NS Final 3.0 though. Atleast Marines had a half chance to win now it is extremely hard to even come close to winning now. AND DONT DENY IT

IMO, 3 hives should be win for aliens. cause, i mean if the marines got 3 hives it's like HMG vs blinkless fade. should be the same for aliens as well

Edit: marines getting three hives refering to they killed all hives =O

duo even when you have the game won as a marine it is really hard to end it, which sucks

True God, true. CAL should go back to Beta 5 D:

The aliens need to be focused on expanding which primarily forces them into a semi defensive mode. Its harder for aliens to be aggressive before they have an overwhelming bias.

Indeed. Part of the 'problem' comes because in a weird way, aliens are actually the lesser-mobile species.

I believe that if aliens get a 3rd hive before Proto/W3/A3, they should win. They've hit third tier tech. Remember that NS from the origin wasn't a 'two teams' scenario, but rather the marines were attacking to get the aliens out of the spacecraft/installation/whatever. I imagine that should the 'infestation' reach such mass that 3 hives are active, the marines should requite a incredibly skillful and tactically sound plan to succeed.

This encourages marine aggression, which can only be a good thing when you consider that marines are ranged whilst aliens aren't. The marines have to know that from 0:01 onwards, they're on a timer to succeed. It also means less stalemates which lead to quit games and matches that take far too long to resolve. If you mess up, you die. Such is Natural Selection.

- Shockwave

hehe nicely put, that made it in my sig if you dont mind

3 hives means 75% map control or general sneakyness or bad commander(for not checking hives)

I think it should be pretty much "instant" win.

3-Hives should be better than anything marines have--but not quite instant win. Marines at top tech should be able to put up a fight, but should require a substantial res advantage to really have much shot at winning.

2-Hives shouldn't even be close to instant win. 2-Hives vs mid-high marine tech with res parity should be an even battle. (say, 2/2 ups with MT, AA, but no proto yet.)

So marine top tech should be somewhere in between 2 Hives and 3 Hives in effectiveness. Maybe comparable to 2-Hive aliens who've picked up their 3rd upgrade from a lost hive? Somewhere around there.

What about once 3 hives are up, an announcment is made (to both teams) that says there is # minutes till the aliens automaticly win.

That way, it gives the marines some modivation or other to kill a hive. Once and if they kill 1 of the 3 hives, a timer for the aliens starts (announced to both teams) that they now have # minutes to finish the marines off. if they dont...marines win.

This idea ends some of these long on-goin games that just are 50%-50% for both sides.
(with some tweaks here and there). Although, This does sound like it would be better as a plugin more then an addon to the game.

I dont see how this belongs in comp discus... moved to general.

Well, in pubs, anything can happen.

In competitive, It is possible to overcome, but your chances are slim. I would say you need around 4-5 res nodes, and 3 Heavy Armors, and 2 Jetpack support to win. Have all the heavies have hmgs, 1 jp with a gl, and 1 with a shotgun/ hmg.

If they all stick together, and keep eachother welded, and healthy, then you might be able to come back.


Usually when three hives are up, the marines have 1-3 res nodes, and either JP, or HA. So if their resflow is good, and they have both techs, then its possible.

I have seen it happen in a scrimm ONCE lol....

Shockwave really said it best, I think.

I think it's the co_ games that get some sort of infestation mindset across, at least to me, in the sense that the marines have to wipe out the infestation - within a certain time limit - before it grows too large for containment. I always hear players talking about the time limit, rushing out the door as fast as they can, without humping the armory too much - and this is kind of what I want to see in ns_, except with more organization.

I think marines should have a chance - if they all work together to wipe out the threat, so to speak. They need some minimum level of tech (pg+jp, ha train, whatever) and the res to suit up, and then move out - as a team - and cut a path clear, ultimately leading in taking down a hive. I've seen it work and it CAN happen, they just need sufficient resources and teamwork. And that's how it should be, at least to me.

"Now we have NS final 3. Where 2 hives it is like having 3 hives in Beta 5. It just doesnt cut it and its really annoying."

How right you are.

Also I think that 3 Hives should ALMOST guarente aliens victory but marines should still have some kinda hope to coming back but not much at all. Otherwise when they got 3 hives, then whats the point of even continuing? Kinda like now. Its no fun at that point since you know you have no chance of winning so the team just gives up and runs all over.

In 3.0F, 3 hives more or less already means an alien victory, unless they get sloppy and/or the marines pull a miracle comeback. I think that's how it should be. From a story perspective, the presence of 3 hives means that the marines have utterly failed at their primary objective of containing the alien threat. Even full tech marines should not be able to match up if you ask me, because possession of all hives requires map control. Marines only have to defend one area to maintain their upgrades, and the Adv. Armory is the only thing that actually has to be re-researched if it's lost. 3 hive dominance is one of the most effective methods of forcing aggressive marine play, much like the time limit in Combat.

In answer to the original question...

If I was playing an RTS and I had three town halls to your one, would you expect to win then?

Game 1:
Aliens had 3 hives and almst all resnodes, rines got a heavy train and kill one hive, leaving marine spawn unprotected.
Marine Spawn dies while the HA train kills the other 2 hives.
You see a lot of onoses die in marine spawn by the ping of death.

Game 2:
Aliens had 3 hives and all resnodes, marines "just" have marine spawn, full upgrades and 15 ips, Onoses and walls of lame died like flies in continuous light marine rushes, game last 90 more minutes, aliens tried their best with all lifeform abilities, and could still be won my both sides, aliens won.

I believe, as per "original" concept and design, teams that are both at full tech should be a roughly equal match for each other; Aliens that would be 3 Hives, 3 Chamber Types, plentiful Fades and Onos (plentiful but not necessarily every player on the Alien side, nor instantly replaceable at death); and for Marines it'd be Level 3 Weapons and Armor, with at least one Prototype upgrade researched, and with the Res Flow to be equipping the entire team with HA/JP, a Shotgun/GL/HMG, and whatever Slot4 weaponry is desired, with enough res to provide Meds/Ammo/Catalyst.

However, even discounting the relatively huge power jump the Aliens get when going from 1 Hive to 2 Hives, and the relatively minor boost they get from 2 Hives to Three, there is a pretty fundamental problem with the idea that both teams at full tech should be an even match, and I think Grendel is alluding to it. In order for the Aliens to get to the point where they hold 3 hives, on nearly every map they probably also control 5-6 res nodes just by holding the ones from inside and surrounding the Hives, plus as powerful as they are they can pretty much take out the nodes the Marine do hold with minimal difficulty. So by the time there is a third hive, the Marines probably only hold 1 or 2 nodes, and the Aliens probably hold more then 6. Unless the Marines have done a genius job of managing their res, they are not going to be able to afford the equipment they would need to stop the fully teched Aliens (and that's assuming that in the grand scheme of things both teams at their top tier really are roughly equal). And it seems unlikely that a team that has managed to let the Aliens take all 3 hives are doing a genius job of anything.

The only version I can remember where games of Classic frequently ended in 3 Hive vs HA Train bludgeonings was in 3.0Beta1 when Fades were still at 250/100 Health/Armor wise, and therefore were almost entirely taken out of the game. As I remember it Marines had a huge advantage, but in games where the Aliens would play smart, and could get up 3 hives very quickly, things would frequently end up being decided with Onos and Heavy Armor facing off, and in that case the Marines still seemed to have a 50/50 shot of winning.

I think it'd be cool if 3 hives (or even 2, if you want to be cynical about it) didn't almost always guarantee an Alien win, but I think for reasons stated above it'd be very difficult to get to that state.

I'm not sure what the current developer view is but in the 1.0x days 3 hives = alien win was completely intentional.

Nothing can stop constant xenociding. People just need to be brave enough and kamikaze.

If aliens get 3rd hive up and defended then marines deserver to die!

Yeah, i would say, too, that 3rd hive up should be an instand winning condition of some sort for aliens!
Maybe a ping of death for rines or some sort of countdown until the containment is breached and the bacterium becomes uncontrollable.
On the same side there should be a nerf for 2nd hive aliens, sot that there are more fights over the existing hive, while the third one is building.
So its a real struggle for the marines, since they face their impending death!
But a struggle they can win, not like now a slowly painful death like it is now.

The game should climax towards the end : Baserush and one team daramtically trying to defend or the sturggle over the third hive
not like the boring stalemate endings we have currently.
If the end of a round would be the most fantasic part of the game all players would go happy in the next round.

I ahve to admit it its currently like that in combat and i think thats one more point why, many people prefer it,
Because each rounds ends in a dramatic climax, may it be JP rush or whatever.
NS is sadly not like this,

But back ontopic:
Hell, i´d even give the aliens their 3rd hive abilities at hive 2 (since 3 is instant win), but nerf them to some extend that they become playable.
And since their abilities did increase their HP bonus at hive 2 should be negated. That way they had more diversity but have to play more like a team to win and secure the 3rd hive or crush teh marines.
I would really like a solution like this, we would finally see abilities like Acidrocket or Webs in actual gameplay again!

Just think of it!

"The game should climax towards the end : Baserush and one team daramtically trying to defend or the sturggle over the third hive
not like the boring stalemate endings we have currently.
If the end of a round would be the most fantasic part of the game all players would go happy in the next round."

Thats what I was saying. Now its just oh ok the aliens have 3 hives lets just sit in base or run all around the map aimlessly because there is nothing we could actually do to win. Its boring and it just drags the game on. But if the marines actually had a chance of coming back it would be more exciting from start to finish, not from start to 3rd hive. It just seems to me like NS is constantly changing more for aliens then marines, I mean just look at all the map remakes and all the extra vents and in and outs the aliens have now, compared to all the changes for marines, pretty much just a nice newer looking MS which dosn't really help at all. The closing doors where about the only thing that helped and they are gone now. Also look at all the dramatic changes that happen for aliens, free upgrades, better chambers, no 3 hive restrictions, devour, healing without dc chambers, the new blink system for fades, and all the dramatic changes for marines are, weaker sieges and distance, weaker weapons ( hmg no structure dmg gl reloading and clip, SG less bullets ), Jp's are nerfed, cat packs and gernades are about the only new thing added and they are both almost completly worthless, especially for the res and time. I keep seeing these huge dramatic changes happening for the aliens which are good and help them but not yet any for marines and as it stands aliens are completly domination marines. ( yeah I know marines get some little changes that are good just like aliens but I'm talking about the big things and marines ONLY get nerfed. )

I'd just like to say that when aliens get 2 hives (meta) and a good fade, it's gg.

" I'd just like to say that when aliens get 2 hives (meta) and a good fade, it's gg."

Whats even worst is when they have 2 or 3 good fades.

I've seen three hive aliens go down. Yes, they were really, REALLY bad but I have seen it happen.

I haven't seen it yet and I play alot haha but I'm sure it has happened and like you said the alien team was real real bad lol.

I think that if both teams are at the peak of their technology the game should still be balanced.
That means aliens have 5 res points / all chambers / 3 hives / a couple of onos a couple of fades a lerk or 2 and xeno skulks and web gorges and marines have every upgrade possible 1/2 team in HA 1/2 JP , the game should still be balanced.
And if this was to happen it should be a huge battle, may the better (clever) team win.

EDIT - and if both teams are equally as good, the game does pretty well at themoment actually, its not till you take down the 3rd hive and players start leaving the game gets unbalanced. (y)

Note : This is where public play requires testing, not the experience of players. Why? Because as soon as 3rd hive goes up / MS loses an important structure, you start to see the usual (highly irritating, incidentally. If you can't face saying it to your teams face, don't say it at all) 'noob team' *player has left the server* behaviour.

It's not just childish, it also impacts on the team. They're one man down for however many seconds/minutes, they lose the res he was carrying in the case of aliens or in the case of a marine, the equipment/location he was holding.

This has more of an impact than people realise, and needs to be paid attention to. But we can't fix the community, and fixing the game because of the stupidity of a minority of players would be a mistake.

- Shockwave

Addendum : You can kill good Fades. The problem isn't they're impossible to kill, it's that they require a disproportionate amount of res/time to do so balanced against their 50 res cost. Fading needs to become easier to master, without capping the skill on the good Fades or giving them an advantage above & beyond their current impact.

"Addendum : You can kill good Fades. The problem isn't they're impossible to kill, it's that they require a disproportionate amount of res/time to do so balanced against their 50 res cost. Fading needs to become easier to master, without capping the skill on the good Fades or giving them an advantage above & beyond their current impact."

You put it perfectly.