[EDIT] Disregard this first post and read on instead. It would have been a nice tactic if the numbers in the NS Guide were right, but in game the LMG doesn't kill RTs faster than the knife.
As we all know RTs are very valuable to aliens. So i propose for the marines to shoot the alien RTs instead of knifing them while the commander drops 3-5 packs to replenish lost ammo.
Benefits:
1. Increases the chance of the RT going down, because aliens have less time to react
2. Because the RT goes down faster, aliens will not gain resources for a couple of seconds it would have been up.
3. Allows the marine RT to be built earlier, which gives marines some extra resources
4. Even if the RT doesn't die, it will have lost more health and will be shot down easier next time
5. Allows the marine to move on to do something else earlier
6. Marine can shoot from some distance instead of sitting by the RT.
Problems:
1. Ammo will cost up to 5 resources for each RT
2. Skulks might ambush while you need to reload (should hear him coming though)
3. Requires comm’s attention who could be doing something more important
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Here are some numbers thrown at you (all data taken from NS official manual)
The LMG is unupgraded. I don’t know what the actual LMG reload time is, but I think it should be close to 2 seconds. Please tell me the actual reload time so I can edit the calculations.
LMG (2sec reload): 71.4 damage/second (I think this should be close to actual value)
Knife: 46.2 damage/second
Time to kill RT with Knife: 54.1 seconds
Time to kill RT with LMG (2sec reload): 35.0 seconds (40 sec if reload is 3 seconds)
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Since RTs give 1 resource every 4 seconds, by killing an RT 19 seconds earlier it takes away 5 resources from the aliens. Furthermore, if the comm drops an RT, then he will get 5 more resources in the time saved. The marines will also have 20 seconds more time to move ahead.
What are your thoughts?
Full Version: Shoot The Rt, Don't Knife It
It takes between 193-250 shots (Which would be 4-5 clips) of an lmg to kill an rt.
If you want it down effectivly, you'd want a full 5 marines shooting it down in however long it takes to kill an rt.
My opinion, 2 marines are most likely to be near the rt, put 1 lmg clip, 1 pistol clip, and then knife it. It'll take em about 10 seconds to empty the ammo, and then say another 10 seconds if they both jump it.
Sure the marines will be caught off guard with no ammo in their guns if a skulk arrives, but the death of 2 marines is easily worth the loss of an alien rt early game.
If you want it down effectivly, you'd want a full 5 marines shooting it down in however long it takes to kill an rt.
My opinion, 2 marines are most likely to be near the rt, put 1 lmg clip, 1 pistol clip, and then knife it. It'll take em about 10 seconds to empty the ammo, and then say another 10 seconds if they both jump it.
Sure the marines will be caught off guard with no ammo in their guns if a skulk arrives, but the death of 2 marines is easily worth the loss of an alien rt early game.
The LMG does more damage than the knife after Weapons 1 is upgraded. And the purpose of shooting the RT with an LMG is really to give your marines a chance instead of being chomped next to the RT.
Marine shoots RT. Skulk moves to RT looking for marine as marine reloads. Marine shoots skulk.
Rather than:
Marine knifes RT. Skulk chomps marine who has knife out.
Marine shoots RT. Skulk moves to RT looking for marine as marine reloads. Marine shoots skulk.
Rather than:
Marine knifes RT. Skulk chomps marine who has knife out.
Just tested to verify.
At weapons 0, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 30 seconds (finished off with pistol for speed). They were both almost exactly 30 seconds, finishing right as the second "ticked."
At weapons 1, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 26 seconds. Did not use pistol as the RT was destroyed near the end of a clip. Assuming knife wouldn't change (because it shouldn't), I only tested LMG from there.
At weapons 2, LMG took 23 seconds. I finished off with most of a pistol clip for speed.
At weapons 3, LMG took 21 seconds and I didn't need the pistol. I forgot to record the number of clips used per trial but I believe it was 5, 5, 4, 4 in order of weapons level. It has a sort of symmetry to it that I like. The time taken decreased by 4, then 3, then 2 seconds. I assume that the reload time is the reason the decrease is not linear.
Also as mentioned there is no benefit to using LMG until weapons 1.
At weapons 0, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 30 seconds (finished off with pistol for speed). They were both almost exactly 30 seconds, finishing right as the second "ticked."
At weapons 1, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 26 seconds. Did not use pistol as the RT was destroyed near the end of a clip. Assuming knife wouldn't change (because it shouldn't), I only tested LMG from there.
At weapons 2, LMG took 23 seconds. I finished off with most of a pistol clip for speed.
At weapons 3, LMG took 21 seconds and I didn't need the pistol. I forgot to record the number of clips used per trial but I believe it was 5, 5, 4, 4 in order of weapons level. It has a sort of symmetry to it that I like. The time taken decreased by 4, then 3, then 2 seconds. I assume that the reload time is the reason the decrease is not linear.
Also as mentioned there is no benefit to using LMG until weapons 1.
9 seconds only means the aliens lose 2-3 res. That means a marine would be down 2-3 full clips of ammo, or a couple of points a res, after killing an RT. Also, if I'm knifing an RT, it's sometimes easier to defend against skulks, because I have a full clip in my LMG.
Usually, mainly depending on the location of the res node, it's a good idea to keep shooting the LMG into the RT and saving the pistol for when a skulk comes by... but this doesn't work if the area is crowded, and not much area for movement is available.
in smaller games its usually better to lmg rts, but in bigger games where skulks are roaming almost everywhere, its better to knife (at least for me)
but either way, nothing gives that feeling of getting owned like a shotty rush
but either way, nothing gives that feeling of getting owned like a shotty rush
It depends on where I am. After about 2 minutes into the game, you get a feel for where the enemy roams. I feel that spending 5 res on ammo isn't worth getting rid of 2 res for the enemy. So I knife if possible. If I hear a skulk, and am almost done, I have no problem blasting it to pieces. I -FINISH- my work.
| QUOTE (meep @ May 10 2005, 09:55 PM) |
| Just tested to verify. At weapons 0, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 30 seconds (finished off with pistol for speed). They were both almost exactly 30 seconds, finishing right as the second "ticked." At weapons 1, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 26 seconds. Did not use pistol as the RT was destroyed near the end of a clip. Assuming knife wouldn't change (because it shouldn't), I only tested LMG from there. At weapons 2, LMG took 23 seconds. I finished off with most of a pistol clip for speed. At weapons 3, LMG took 21 seconds and I didn't need the pistol. I forgot to record the number of clips used per trial but I believe it was 5, 5, 4, 4 in order of weapons level. It has a sort of symmetry to it that I like. The time taken decreased by 4, then 3, then 2 seconds. I assume that the reload time is the reason the decrease is not linear. Also as mentioned there is no benefit to using LMG until weapons 1. |
I guess knife does double damage against buildings - thant would explain the huge error. If knife does do double damage, then there isn't really a reason to shoot an RT unless it is difficult to be in knifeing range.
The knife doesn't do double damage against buildings, as far as I know. It does 30 damage per swipe, to aliens and to strutctures.
I generally knife until there are two bars left then shoot the remaining health off it. iirc with anything above w0 it only takes your LMG clip to do this. I always think finishing off the RT slightly faster is more important than getting caught with an empty clip.
I generally shoot the RT with a clip reload then start knifing. The shooting occurs while closing the distance to the RT, of course after scanning the room first.
As a skulk I just love those dumb marines who emty their clips to rts 
all you have to do is to wait that they reload. Then eat everyone.
all you have to do is to wait that they reload. Then eat everyone.
| QUOTE (MistenTH @ May 11 2005, 02:19 AM) |
| Marine shoots RT. Skulk moves to RT looking for marine as marine reloads. Marine shoots skulk. Rather than: Marine knifes RT. Skulk chomps marine who has knife out. |
Sine when have marines been unable to draw the LMG before the skulk is within killing distance?! A reloading marine has less chance of switching to pistol and killing the skulk than the chance the "knife out" marine has of killing the skulk by switching to LMG.
When have you EVER thought "Oh, that marine has his knife out, he's vulnerable, let's go for the kill"?
| QUOTE (tuutti2) |
| As a skulk I just love those dumb marines who emty their clips to rts. All you have to do is to wait that they reload. Then eat everyone. |
Uh huh. 2+ marines with pistols and knives > a skulk. Besides, anyone with any sense would have the marines firing at the rt alternatively. AND you'd hear the skulk comming, so stop shooting and be prepared for it.
--
Personally my choice of RT killing medium depends on the location of the rt in question, (with relation to hive and MS/relocation spot,) and the last known location of fades/MT blips.
- If I'm in a hive room (no hive,) I'd knife the RT. It's slower, but I'm probably far from MS and so tactically useful from the comm's perspective. The more marines in the field, the better. More options for maneouvers, more map control.
There's unlikely to be any skulks around, as they are neither spawning nearby, nor would they be passing through en route to elsewhere. (Most hives are at extremes of map.) It's benificial for me to take down the rt quickly by LMGing it, but the tactical advantage out weighs this. - If it's say, a node near MS (station access on ecl,) I'd knife it, finishing off with EITHER LMG/pistol, depending on range**
This is my typical choice; If I die, I can get back to the node quickly. If I don't die, I have more ammo for later. The node is likely to be destroyed by marines anyway, (as it's a common marine pathway,) so time is less important than ammo conservation.
It could be argued that I should LMG this node and hope for ammo. I'd say that there's little difference. The comm will almost certainly drop a marine node, as it's close to MS, and you'd gain more res that way than you loose to ammo packs. However if you die to a skulk it's a MUCH bigger loss than the potential gain. THEY get 1-3 res, you DON'T get their rt, you DON'T get their 1-3 res, you DON'T get an rt.
**(Cramped rts in corners surrounded by vents, (eg near pressure on ayumi) would be better to pistol, as you have an LMG clip for close encounters. Station access tends to LMG, as you'll engage the skulk at pistol range no matter which side he attacks from.)- Nodes on critcal health should always be LMG'd. You'll likely only have reload once, and if a node is on less than 100% health it means some other rine has died knifing it, so you may be expecting company shortly.
Summary (you lazy person!): I would never LMG a node unless it was already on low HP and I was going to die to a fade/skulk. Knifing is a compromise between ideal efficiency and increasing your chances of surviing to a skulk attack.
hm, my first thought was like: whoa, i would never ever waste my ammo on a rt...
why? because i have *gasp* ears , i hear when skulks come, i can stop to knife, draw my lmg and kill the skulk
no big problem
if i should die, i could get more ammo at base, now that i know it need the extra ammo
why? because i have *gasp* ears , i hear when skulks come, i can stop to knife, draw my lmg and kill the skulk
no big problem
if i should die, i could get more ammo at base, now that i know it need the extra ammo
Some people have no clue. You're doing the right thing for the wrong reasons meight.
1) The point is that you have more OPEN SPACE around you, so you have a better LINE OF FIRE on any skulks defending the rt. Which can't be said if you're standing next to the rt as you have a huge blind spot behind the rt.
2) You have at least 2 marines there always, dont try to rambo an rt with LMG. They shoot alternatively, one hitting the node whilst the other covers the side / rear. If you hear skulks or a pistol, you turn and help out the marine with the empty LMG clip.
This method is only recommended if it's a high-risk rt (Examples Power-subjuntion and South Loop on eclipse), or an rt which is easily pressured (CC Hive or Horseshoe on eclipse)
Seriously, either knife it all the way if it's an out of the way node, or group up and shoot it down. Remember how power-sub rt ALWAYS used to be lmg'd down because you could stand in the power-sub corridor and cover ridiculously easily? That node was a f**king nightmare to knife down - think about what you're doing in future 'rines.
1) The point is that you have more OPEN SPACE around you, so you have a better LINE OF FIRE on any skulks defending the rt. Which can't be said if you're standing next to the rt as you have a huge blind spot behind the rt.
2) You have at least 2 marines there always, dont try to rambo an rt with LMG. They shoot alternatively, one hitting the node whilst the other covers the side / rear. If you hear skulks or a pistol, you turn and help out the marine with the empty LMG clip.
This method is only recommended if it's a high-risk rt (Examples Power-subjuntion and South Loop on eclipse), or an rt which is easily pressured (CC Hive or Horseshoe on eclipse)
Seriously, either knife it all the way if it's an out of the way node, or group up and shoot it down. Remember how power-sub rt ALWAYS used to be lmg'd down because you could stand in the power-sub corridor and cover ridiculously easily? That node was a f**king nightmare to knife down - think about what you're doing in future 'rines.
It definately depends on the situation, if your alone, hear skulks, in a group, near a dangerous hard to defend node, if the node is easy to knife and still keep yourself alive, so its really up to your decision which you make at that moment of time and not a general knife rts all the time, shoot rts all the time argument. 
If res allows, I always order to shoot it. Any time on our side is good
Yes I always urge my marines to shoot all bullets to rt and then knife it, because they cant defend against the skulk with 2 clips of ammo while they are next to rt and are slashing.
I don't shoot all of my bullets, lest I encounter a patrolling Skulk several seconds afterwards, but generally a clip of both LMG and Pistol ammo. And since I rarely travel alone, there's usually someone knifing or firing at any given RT with me, so one clip is usually all it takes.
meep I would love to know how many rines were in part of the strat?
Cause a single lmg can not kill an rt in one clip.
Cause a single lmg can not kill an rt in one clip.
It seems like knife does double damage to structures so it doesn't make it faster shooting an RT with lvl0 LMG. The reload for an LMG is 3 seconds and, as meep noticed, it takes about 30 seconds to knife an RT or to shoot it using 5 clips (I checked the time just to be sure).
What does all this mean? -- in general, do NOT shoot an RT with LMG and then wait for a skulk to eat you, because knifing it is just as fast.
I see several reasons to use an LMG:
- you can shoot an RT from afar without exposing yourself to danger
- when RT has couple bars left and a fade will surely kill you, run around and shoot the RT
- you got lvl2 or higher weapon and, for some unknown reason, lots of ammo.
I always thoguht that LMG does do more damage per second than knife to buildings, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I guess this is one more reason not to hump the armory forever, since this extra ammo won't help you kill RTs (unless you do it from afar).
[EDIT] something is really wrong with the data in the Official NS Guide (there ARE other mistakes in it), or i'm screwing up the calcualtions. The numbers i found don't make any sense at all in the game. I'll make some more tests on servers and later post my findings.
What does all this mean? -- in general, do NOT shoot an RT with LMG and then wait for a skulk to eat you, because knifing it is just as fast.
I see several reasons to use an LMG:
- you can shoot an RT from afar without exposing yourself to danger
- when RT has couple bars left and a fade will surely kill you, run around and shoot the RT
- you got lvl2 or higher weapon and, for some unknown reason, lots of ammo.
I always thoguht that LMG does do more damage per second than knife to buildings, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I guess this is one more reason not to hump the armory forever, since this extra ammo won't help you kill RTs (unless you do it from afar).
[EDIT] something is really wrong with the data in the Official NS Guide (there ARE other mistakes in it), or i'm screwing up the calcualtions. The numbers i found don't make any sense at all in the game. I'll make some more tests on servers and later post my findings.
**** tactic unless u hawe better gun than lmg
1) start listenserver
2) sv_numericdamage 1 (sp?)
3) knife an alien rt
4) observer knife does standard damage vs structures
5) cry
2) sv_numericdamage 1 (sp?)
3) knife an alien rt
4) observer knife does standard damage vs structures
5) cry
| QUOTE (SpaceJesus @ May 13 2005, 08:30 AM) |
| 2) sv_numericdamage 1 (sp?) |
mp_drawdamage 1
| QUOTE (Gigabane @ May 11 2005, 05:57 PM) |
| meep I would love to know how many rines were in part of the strat? Cause a single lmg can not kill an rt in one clip. |
Um what? I explained that I didn't keep track of how many clips I used (didn't think about it). But I thought that it was 5+1, 5, 4+1, 4 (+1 indicating pistol clip finisher). So in summation: reading skills win wars!
| QUOTE (nogoodnickname @ May 13 2005, 06:24 AM) |
| **** tactic unless u hawe better gun than lmg |
everytime i see someone shooting a chamber/hive/node with an HMG i coul cry...
It's so sad nobody knows they do half dmg vs buildings.
HMG's are there to cover that poor shotgunner that takes down that chamber/hive/node so don't waste your bullets!
And there's nothing better to get rid of nodes than a lvl3 shotgun. Send a good rambo/ninja off with one and if he knows what he's doing aliens will lose all rt's (maybe even the one in the hive
)With an lmg i only shoot the nodes from wu1 and if i got enough ammo with me, because most pub comm's don't drop ammo that often :/
| QUOTE (m4d @ May 13 2005, 07:16 PM) | ||
everytime i see someone shooting a chamber/hive/node with an HMG i coul cry... |
Why? If you finish it that much faster, all the better. (See first post.)
--
If there's 5 HA HMG in a hive room, shooting the hive would be a good idea. Admitedly a mix of weapons would be more ideal, but no comm is perfect.
--
| QUOTE |
| And there's nothing better to get rid of nodes than a lvl3 shotgun. |
Level 3 GL
Interesting... I didn't know that. It's been my comm philosophy to have all rts gunned down, rather than knifed down. So not until w1 now
| QUOTE (BlueNovember @ May 13 2005, 07:31 PM) | ||||||
Why? If you finish it that much faster, all the better. (See first post.) -- If there's 5 HA HMG in a hive room, shooting the hive would be a good idea. Admitedly a mix of weapons would be more ideal, but no comm is perfect. --
Level 3 GL |
but with lmg and u just hawe reload and there comes 3 skulks
| QUOTE (BlueNovember @ May 13 2005, 07:31 PM) | ||||||
Why? If you finish it that much faster, all the better. (See first post.) -- If there's 5 HA HMG in a hive room, shooting the hive would be a good idea. Admitedly a mix of weapons would be more ideal, but no comm is perfect. --
Level 3 GL |
*massquote* :>
Nah lvl3 GL won't takte down a node faster. As far as i know you need more than 4 nades to kill one. While 1 shotgun clip will do for sure and you got 1-2 shots spare in the clip for any skulk that comes by. And a shotgun is cheaper by 5 res
GL damage isn't increased with weapon upgrades.
HOWEVER, it takes 2 shottie clips to drop a node from full. And it takes only about 5 nades, if I remember right. In any case, the GL is THE single most effective infantry mounted seige weapon in NS (Also useful against skulks, or anything if you know where it's heading.)
HOWEVER, it takes 2 shottie clips to drop a node from full. And it takes only about 5 nades, if I remember right. In any case, the GL is THE single most effective infantry mounted seige weapon in NS (Also useful against skulks, or anything if you know where it's heading.)
Asal you didnt do a lot of research there.
Level 0 Grenade Launcher: 250 Per Shot
Level 3 Grenade Launcher: 325 Per Shot
8-10 Grenades to kill a resource node (Thats really surprising, you'd think it would be a lot less)
12-15 Shotgun Blasts to kill a resource node.
For once I believe the shotgun is actually the better weapon for killing structures. It even excells in speed I think against killing a hive.
Level 0 Grenade Launcher: 250 Per Shot
Level 3 Grenade Launcher: 325 Per Shot
8-10 Grenades to kill a resource node (Thats really surprising, you'd think it would be a lot less)
12-15 Shotgun Blasts to kill a resource node.
For once I believe the shotgun is actually the better weapon for killing structures. It even excells in speed I think against killing a hive.
Perhaps I haven't kept up with the most recent updates, but last I checked it made no change. Though...that was beta, and they may have changed it since. I'm not nearly as active as I used to be.
I believe the GL's main function is anti WOL, anything else a SG can do as good as an GL.
Splash dmg and indirect fire are why the GL is better than the SG for killing structures.
| QUOTE (afratnikov @ May 13 2005, 03:46 AM) |
| [EDIT] something is really wrong with the data in the Official NS Guide (there ARE other mistakes in it), or i'm screwing up the calcualtions. The numbers i found don't make any sense at all in the game. I'll make some more tests on servers and later post my findings. |
No kidding--the Official Guide is way off on most of its numbers. It's fire rate numbers, for example, are all off by about a factor of 2 (which is a pretty big error). It lists the wrong damage for shotgun upgrades. It doesn't list protolab dependancy on arms lab. Etc, etc.
Right, I forgot about WOL's.
Alright then, so it's good for taking out clumps of structures, and things at a good range/around corners.
Alright then, so it's good for taking out clumps of structures, and things at a good range/around corners.
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