I am afraid if you do that then aliens will alway get DC as second chamber. Forcing the MC/DC/SC as the same strat for all games.
As aliens I feel pressured to play defense first and when I am fade I worry about dieing because that can cause us the round. As soon as that second hive is up so much pressured is relieved. If I die its no longer a big deal. This is because I usually have close enough res to fade again, Skulks are now strong enough to defend a hive. Its alot harder to take down a hive once it is up.
I personally find lerks over powered. Either they have to much enegry or spores last too long. Sieging without HA is very difficult in most places because lerks can sit in the safety of a vent and constantly keep in spores. The comm waste tons of money on medpacks and skulks have no problem killing you. Add a fade to that and you don't have a chance.
Full Version: 3.0.3 Competitive Balance
Unknown Worlds Forums > Natural Selection > Natural Selection Organized Play > General Competitive Discussion
Making aliens more resilient in the first 3 minutes of the game and making marine midgame tech come faster will help significantly. Lowering the cost and/or time of the AA and the proto tech will help a lot, and lowering MT would help as well. Alien early game is a lot more difficult to fix, increasing node hp would likely help a lot, as the nodes are not as replacable as marine RTs.
Fixing broken marine tech has been suggested out the **** in both public and private arenas, it simply doesn't seem to be the focus for some unknown reason.
Fixing broken marine tech has been suggested out the **** in both public and private arenas, it simply doesn't seem to be the focus for some unknown reason.
Thinking about it some(and reading Router Box comments), I change my mind about nerfing skulks. This would place more pressure back on the fade, which is bad. Same with making upgrades cheaper; this shifts importance back to the fade as well. Balance change has to occur somewhere else.
Lower AA research time by 10 seconds.
Decrease Alien starting res to 20.
Decrease Alien RT cost by 5. (or decrease gorge cost by 5)
Decrease JP and HA drop cost by 5, increase HMG cost by 5.
Decrease proto lab cost by 5.
humm.. maybe not.
Decrease Alien starting res to 20.
Decrease Alien RT cost by 5. (or decrease gorge cost by 5)
Decrease JP and HA drop cost by 5, increase HMG cost by 5.
Decrease proto lab cost by 5.
humm.. maybe not.
Besides making some marine tech viable, Id also like to mention that the alien tech does come too fast. Giving skulks free upgrades means that res that was going to be spent on upgrades can be saved for a lifeform or hive (recap: free upgrades puts hives and higher lifeforms on the board earlier).
Marines work off the baisis of time and res. Aliens work off the basis of time and **EVENTS.**
Aliens receive res uniformly, so you can say that events happen at res levels.
First level - 25 res - start of the game. Aliens can drop rt's.
Second level - 30 res - about 1:30. Early lerk, chambers will appear.
Third level - 50 res - about 3:30-4:30. Fades and rt/lerks gestate and the second hive is dropped.
Fourth Level - 75 res - About 7 minutes. 2nd hive is finishing. Rt/Fades appear.
Fifth level - 100 res - All fades if they die have the ability to refade, and the third hive is going up.
These levels are reached at variable times depending on the success marines have killing alien rt's. If all the rt's in the field go down, level 3 can be delayed to 6:00-7:00. There are many things that obviously disrupt this, like the early lerk being succesfull all game and dropping the third hive on the heel of the second. Or the second hive dying ect ect.
The point is that the marines are different. They use more of a straight line expansion of a slope determined by their res management, as opposed to the aliens step like expansion.
If you want to alter the alien power structure you need to change the attributes of each expansion level, or change the expansion level layout. For example if fades came at forty res but has 50 less armor, then it would create a step between two and three that would be indiviually significant. People are complaining that step 3 is too important. Everything is about keeping step three aliens from becoming step four aliens, (or if its a marine stomping, keeping step three from ever even happening.)
The other concern is that the straight line expansion of marines isn't significan't after a certain point. It appears that people are saying that if marines successfully expand at a decent pace that they should be able to contend with aliens at equivalent levels. There should be a certain amount of damage that aliens have to do to marine infrastructure to gain the dominence that they currently have at level 4. The solutions that have been suggested all seem to revolve around increasing the slope of the straight line marine expansion (besides the obvious level 4 alien nerfing)
And so ends my tirade wherein I invented a lot of terms. Hope everyone followed it.
Aliens receive res uniformly, so you can say that events happen at res levels.
First level - 25 res - start of the game. Aliens can drop rt's.
Second level - 30 res - about 1:30. Early lerk, chambers will appear.
Third level - 50 res - about 3:30-4:30. Fades and rt/lerks gestate and the second hive is dropped.
Fourth Level - 75 res - About 7 minutes. 2nd hive is finishing. Rt/Fades appear.
Fifth level - 100 res - All fades if they die have the ability to refade, and the third hive is going up.
These levels are reached at variable times depending on the success marines have killing alien rt's. If all the rt's in the field go down, level 3 can be delayed to 6:00-7:00. There are many things that obviously disrupt this, like the early lerk being succesfull all game and dropping the third hive on the heel of the second. Or the second hive dying ect ect.
The point is that the marines are different. They use more of a straight line expansion of a slope determined by their res management, as opposed to the aliens step like expansion.
If you want to alter the alien power structure you need to change the attributes of each expansion level, or change the expansion level layout. For example if fades came at forty res but has 50 less armor, then it would create a step between two and three that would be indiviually significant. People are complaining that step 3 is too important. Everything is about keeping step three aliens from becoming step four aliens, (or if its a marine stomping, keeping step three from ever even happening.)
The other concern is that the straight line expansion of marines isn't significan't after a certain point. It appears that people are saying that if marines successfully expand at a decent pace that they should be able to contend with aliens at equivalent levels. There should be a certain amount of damage that aliens have to do to marine infrastructure to gain the dominence that they currently have at level 4. The solutions that have been suggested all seem to revolve around increasing the slope of the straight line marine expansion (besides the obvious level 4 alien nerfing)
And so ends my tirade wherein I invented a lot of terms. Hope everyone followed it.
| QUOTE (tankefugl @ May 9 2005, 09:43 AM) |
| Also keep in mind that we're more interested in what is wrong than how it can be fixed. |
Read that again please
This is turning into I&S now.
| QUOTE (Buggy @ May 10 2005, 11:45 PM) | ||
Read that again please This is turning into I&S now. |
Hence the sarcasm in my post!
After another week of scrimming and cal matches I must say Lerks are the key to alot of aliens wins. With MC first, Lerks can constanly keep the marines in spores. This requires the comm to spend all his res on medpacks and requires the comms attention to always be there. I think just about every team tries to get a lerk as early as possible.
Another thing I noticed.
It is hard to find scrims against omega clans. Everytime my clan scrims its against delta clans. Surprisingly we have beaten some of them on aliens. Clans like obs/bah/console/wnf. None of which were easy victories but we are getting better and learning alot from them. When we switch teams with these clans we get owned as marines. My point is to show how inbalances it is. If Omega clans can hang with delta clans as aliens then something isn't right.
Another thing I noticed.
It is hard to find scrims against omega clans. Everytime my clan scrims its against delta clans. Surprisingly we have beaten some of them on aliens. Clans like obs/bah/console/wnf. None of which were easy victories but we are getting better and learning alot from them. When we switch teams with these clans we get owned as marines. My point is to show how inbalances it is. If Omega clans can hang with delta clans as aliens then something isn't right.
All Delta clans you mentioned have weak marine rounds naturally - and with obscures, its pretty much hit and Isamil... err miss.
Oh burn.
Oh burn.
Take away the extra armor strength given to aliens with second and third hive. One simple move in the correct direction.
| QUOTE (SaltzBad @ May 16 2005, 07:22 AM) |
| All Delta clans you mentioned have weak marine rounds naturally - and with obscures, its pretty much hit and Isamil... err miss. Oh burn. |
See I view the reason alot of clans have weak marine teams is because of the unbalance.
| QUOTE (Precious @ May 16 2005, 10:46 AM) | ||
See I view the reason alot of clans have weak marine teams is because of the unbalance. |
the only real quantifier of strong or weak team is b5 or prior. if a team's marine round has significantly improved skillwise since then it will be difficult to tell due to the fact that aliens are currently so powerful
As people adjust to the various issues with each build, their game will improve or fall apart. My beta5 comm skills were absolutely terrible, I couldn't get a win for the life of me, especially near the end of the version before b6 was available. In B4/B4a, I had the game down pretty well and didn't lose too many games. Even the smallest changes can throw a team's game off, and that really should factor into competitive balance. If a change hurts so many team's game on one side, it obviously did something to the balance. If so many teams can't get marine wins now, that probably has something to do with it.
beta5 commanding was easy, 3.0f is hard.
| QUOTE (DrFurious @ May 9 2005, 03:11 PM) |
| 2nd hive aliens are close to unbeatable now, with the main problem being the skulk. A leaping skulk with upgrades can now deliver the same offensive punch as a fade in most cases due to their speed and damage capabilities, and yet are completely expendable and renewable. Before you could kill a fade and get some respite, now the leaping skulks just keep coming. The bump that 2 hive skulks got, moving them from utility/node eating to a legitemate offensive unit, has closed off the majority of marine options to the point where you need heavy armor to have a chance, and even then it's touch and go. Right now as a commander my plan of attack has changed dramatically from b5, such that it's absolutely necessary to kill or block the second hive, before it goes up if the alien team is very good. On top of that marines still have to control res nodes, so it's a daunting task. I've played with trying to end the game before the second hive, but it's very risky and a good lerk can counter any hive rushes completely. Right now the only options for marines are attack early, block the second hive, or tech to heavy armor to try to outlast them, and none of these options are particularly easy. |
This is a very good point DrFurious, it makes me wonder, that at 2 hives the upgrade cost for aliens should raise to 1 point, and at 3 hives the upgrade cost should be raised to 2 points.
Sorta like a downside for the armor increases and gains in abilities that the aliens get at these levels.
I like the idea of taking away the multiple hive armor boost.
^
Agreed.
Agreed.
I'd like to point out a few numbers for the theory on removing hive armor boosts:
1-Hive Skulk--90 hp
2-Hive Skulk--95 hp
1-Hive Skulk (cara)--130 hp
2-Hive Skulk (cara)--145 hp
1-Hive Onos--1900 hp
1-Hive Onos (cara)--2600 hp
2-Hive Onos--2200 hp
3-Hive Onos (cara)--3550 hp
One of the recurring complaints has been that 2-hive skulks are too deadly. The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives adds ZERO bullets to its lifespan. Even with carapace (which is apparently pretty rare in competitive these days), the armor boost adds only 1-2 bullets.
On the other hand, it has also been pointed out that Onos are still too weak, and they rely heavily on the extra-hive armor boost. They pick up 300 hp per hive from it, 475 with carapace. They will suffer substantially with the loss of the hive-armor bonus.
1-Hive Skulk--90 hp
2-Hive Skulk--95 hp
1-Hive Skulk (cara)--130 hp
2-Hive Skulk (cara)--145 hp
1-Hive Onos--1900 hp
1-Hive Onos (cara)--2600 hp
2-Hive Onos--2200 hp
3-Hive Onos (cara)--3550 hp
One of the recurring complaints has been that 2-hive skulks are too deadly. The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives adds ZERO bullets to its lifespan. Even with carapace (which is apparently pretty rare in competitive these days), the armor boost adds only 1-2 bullets.
On the other hand, it has also been pointed out that Onos are still too weak, and they rely heavily on the extra-hive armor boost. They pick up 300 hp per hive from it, 475 with carapace. They will suffer substantially with the loss of the hive-armor bonus.
Agreed, armor boosting is fine.
It seems to me that "competetive players" forget why skulks in 3.0 are so much better than in the betas.
That is, the fact that they are basically combat skulks with perma upgrades. If marines only had to worry about basic skulks, you'd hear complaints again about how much skulks suck.
Removing the armor boosts = move in wrong direction
Putting a cost back on upgrades = step in the right direction
It seems to me that "competetive players" forget why skulks in 3.0 are so much better than in the betas.
That is, the fact that they are basically combat skulks with perma upgrades. If marines only had to worry about basic skulks, you'd hear complaints again about how much skulks suck.
Removing the armor boosts = move in wrong direction
Putting a cost back on upgrades = step in the right direction
| QUOTE (Cxwf @ May 17 2005, 11:24 AM) |
| I'd like to point out a few numbers for the theory on removing hive armor boosts: 1-Hive Skulk--90 hp 2-Hive Skulk--95 hp 1-Hive Skulk (cara)--130 hp 2-Hive Skulk (cara)--145 hp 1-Hive Onos--1900 hp 1-Hive Onos (cara)--2600 hp 2-Hive Onos--2200 hp 3-Hive Onos (cara)--3550 hp One of the recurring complaints has been that 2-hive skulks are too deadly. The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives adds ZERO bullets to its lifespan. Even with carapace (which is apparently pretty rare in competitive these days), the armor boost adds only 1-2 bullets. On the other hand, it has also been pointed out that Onos are still too weak, and they rely heavily on the extra-hive armor boost. They pick up 300 hp per hive from it, 475 with carapace. They will suffer substantially with the loss of the hive-armor bonus. |
Let's try some more numbers:
As stated,
1-hive skulk--90 hp
2-hive skulk--95 hp
W1 shotgun, center five pellets hit--90 hp
W2 shotgun, center five pellets hit--100 hp
the 2-hive armor boost makes it far more difficult for shotguns to one-shot skulks. Most one-shots on skulks are done with the center five pellets. hive-2 vs W1 basically doubles the number of SG hits to kill a skulk.
In addition, the second hive reduces the amount of time it takes regen to provide the skulk with an extra shot's worth of life from 20s/18s (W0/W1) to 10s/8s (W0/W1). I don't have any sort of statistics on how often a skulk lives 8s but not 18s, but I do end up killing marines with 1hp left a couple of times each scrim. I would say that it is not uncommon for a skulk to maybe take a bullet while approaching or trying to parasite, back off, and attack the marine slightly later. Thus, the claim that the second hive adds 0 bullets is not true.
Let's look at the backbone of the alien team, though:
1-hive fade--600hp
2-hive fade--675hp
This is a 12.5% increase in HP. This more than cancels out a level of weapon upgrades (especially considering W1 only gives an extra 5.8% damage to shotguns).
And, for fun, since you're discussing carapace
1-hive cara fade--800hp
2-hive cara fade--925hp
This is a 15.6% increase in HP. By contrast, W2 gives a 17.6% increase in shotgun damage. This means that the 2-hive armor boost by itself nearly entirely cancels out two levels of weapons upgrades for shotguns vs cara fades.
Marines already have a rather difficult time dealing with aliens that have suddenly each gained a tremendously new weapon and upgrade. Do they really need to have a level of weapons upgrades canceled? This strongly encourages marines to have solid weapons upgrades before the second hive finishes in order to stay in the game, constraining their tech options.
Besides that, the system is ridiculously unintuitive at the moment. A fade can take an amount of damage equal to health + (1.5 + .5 * # hives) * armor? Why not just give the aliens the extra armor and keep the amount each point is worth the same? Sure, it'd take longer to regen, but aliens regen too quickly already. Having the amount each point of armor is worth invisibly change with the number of hives is just another silly thing that causes newbies difficulty.
I'm not going to add to the fire, just giving my opinion on the issue. I personally believe the stronger the aliens and marines get the more dynamic the game becomes. If one team slips up once that will cost them dearly. This also allows for shorter and more fastpaced games where if the aliens or marines get a upper hand by a long shot, the game will end quickly rather than dragging it out.
I personally believe that if you gave marines a way to deal with a sporing lerk, leaping skulks and fades with focus you might have something. Personally, a cool idea might be that if you get armor2 your armor does not go down when you get spored. It will make spore useless with the added benefit of making marines go the armor route if they need to deal with the fades. Right now, there is really no point in teching down the armor tree but if we added a extremely large benefit of getting armor 2 and armor 3 I can honestly say that it will make things more interesting. Marine teams will be faced with choosing a more defensive game or a more aggressive game which will make it much much more interesting.
I personally believe that if you gave marines a way to deal with a sporing lerk, leaping skulks and fades with focus you might have something. Personally, a cool idea might be that if you get armor2 your armor does not go down when you get spored. It will make spore useless with the added benefit of making marines go the armor route if they need to deal with the fades. Right now, there is really no point in teching down the armor tree but if we added a extremely large benefit of getting armor 2 and armor 3 I can honestly say that it will make things more interesting. Marine teams will be faced with choosing a more defensive game or a more aggressive game which will make it much much more interesting.
@Zephor:
Nerfing and boosting are artificial discriminations in the method of change - since the main impact of change isn't the unit or statistic that is being altered, but how it by proxy remodels the whole game. A boost that for example makes A2 marines immune to spores would make the gameplay pace more pedestrian if anything - after 3:00ish marines could have an AA and A2 then, hence being immune to spores while having everything necessary to take a hive down even in the current version.
You'd have a point if you suggested another offensive weapon to keep lerks on their toes, or splitting the current AA into two upgrades - one for the GL, and one like now for the protoreq and HMG. Preferrably split them into a 120-150 second upgrade for what is currently the AA minus GLs, and 45-75 seconds for just the GL. That would allow for more variety in a number of ways - making both the late proto and earlyproto trees alot more viable.
If you ask me, the best way to balance current NS is really to modularize marine tech a bit further. I see no reason we need to be stuck on the 60 seconds for level 1 upgrades and an extra 30 seconds for every level, the catpack on the armslab and all that stuff. Fiddling with these things both makes future builds exciting to adapt to, and is the easiest way to rebalance things.
Also the idea of changing the armor bonus to a numerical value sounds cool, but how would this work for the onos? The most workable option would be to just shift some of the fades armor to hp - like a 400/100 setup.
Nerfing and boosting are artificial discriminations in the method of change - since the main impact of change isn't the unit or statistic that is being altered, but how it by proxy remodels the whole game. A boost that for example makes A2 marines immune to spores would make the gameplay pace more pedestrian if anything - after 3:00ish marines could have an AA and A2 then, hence being immune to spores while having everything necessary to take a hive down even in the current version.
You'd have a point if you suggested another offensive weapon to keep lerks on their toes, or splitting the current AA into two upgrades - one for the GL, and one like now for the protoreq and HMG. Preferrably split them into a 120-150 second upgrade for what is currently the AA minus GLs, and 45-75 seconds for just the GL. That would allow for more variety in a number of ways - making both the late proto and earlyproto trees alot more viable.
If you ask me, the best way to balance current NS is really to modularize marine tech a bit further. I see no reason we need to be stuck on the 60 seconds for level 1 upgrades and an extra 30 seconds for every level, the catpack on the armslab and all that stuff. Fiddling with these things both makes future builds exciting to adapt to, and is the easiest way to rebalance things.
Also the idea of changing the armor bonus to a numerical value sounds cool, but how would this work for the onos? The most workable option would be to just shift some of the fades armor to hp - like a 400/100 setup.
Remember the good old days when skulks had 109 hp at Hive 1? And 155 with carapace? No one complained they were overpowered then, vs marines with 143 starting hp instead of today's 160.
The free upgrades make all the difference in the world.
The free upgrades make all the difference in the world.
| QUOTE (Dirm @ May 17 2005, 02:15 PM) | ||
Let's try some more numbers: As stated, 1-hive skulk--90 hp 2-hive skulk--95 hp W1 shotgun, center five pellets hit--90 hp W2 shotgun, center five pellets hit--100 hp the 2-hive armor boost makes it far more difficult for shotguns to one-shot skulks. Most one-shots on skulks are done with the center five pellets. hive-2 vs W1 basically doubles the number of SG hits to kill a skulk. In addition, the second hive reduces the amount of time it takes regen to provide the skulk with an extra shot's worth of life from 20s/18s (W0/W1) to 10s/8s (W0/W1). I don't have any sort of statistics on how often a skulk lives 8s but not 18s, but I do end up killing marines with 1hp left a couple of times each scrim. I would say that it is not uncommon for a skulk to maybe take a bullet while approaching or trying to parasite, back off, and attack the marine slightly later. Thus, the claim that the second hive adds 0 bullets is not true. Let's look at the backbone of the alien team, though: 1-hive fade--600hp 2-hive fade--675hp This is a 12.5% increase in HP. This more than cancels out a level of weapon upgrades (especially considering W1 only gives an extra 5.8% damage to shotguns). And, for fun, since you're discussing carapace 1-hive cara fade--800hp 2-hive cara fade--925hp This is a 15.6% increase in HP. By contrast, W2 gives a 17.6% increase in shotgun damage. This means that the 2-hive armor boost by itself nearly entirely cancels out two levels of weapons upgrades for shotguns vs cara fades. Marines already have a rather difficult time dealing with aliens that have suddenly each gained a tremendously new weapon and upgrade. Do they really need to have a level of weapons upgrades canceled? This strongly encourages marines to have solid weapons upgrades before the second hive finishes in order to stay in the game, constraining their tech options. Besides that, the system is ridiculously unintuitive at the moment. A fade can take an amount of damage equal to health + (1.5 + .5 * # hives) * armor? Why not just give the aliens the extra armor and keep the amount each point is worth the same? Sure, it'd take longer to regen, but aliens regen too quickly already. Having the amount each point of armor is worth invisibly change with the number of hives is just another silly thing that causes newbies difficulty. |
Dirm, in ANY version of NS you did not have W2 by the time hive 2 was up, then the marines were losing, hardcore.
And since W2 gives you 5 points of extra leeway to kill the skulk over W1, what's the problem...? Since your argument is that only the 5 bullets in the center of the spread will hit, supposedly by nullifying the armor boost of hive 2 it will be easier to kill the skulk?
How so? By allowing 4 bullets to kill the skulk? The skulk will still have 90 hp; and the shotgun at W2 deals 100 with the center 5; only hit with 4 and you deal 80, which isn't enough to kill the leaping focus skulk flying into your face, so it remains that if anything the armor boost is a good change as it allows hive 2 aliens to mop up marine teams without weapons 2 quicker, and bring the conclusion of the game down faster.
What is bad about that?
Also as an added benifit you get carapace as a highly useful upgrade because of the armor bonuses.
Really now, can't anyone see that all of these "imbalances" have been centered around one main change, that is, the free upgrades?
Before free upgrades: DMS
After free upgrades: MSD or SMD
Hello.... is there anybody out there?
That is because the upgrade costs never affected anyone but skulks; higher lifeforms generally lasted so long the upgrade costs were negligible. But skulks are generally sucide units so to buy upgrades was a bad idea.
And what chamber gives the best upgrades to higher lifeforms at hive 1? You guessed it! It's the D chamber, since the only spot to heal in the map is in your single starting locale. At two hives, you've got 2/3's of the map, and fades have metab, so regen loses it's usefulness, but at hive 1 regen is where it's at for fades, onos, and good enough for lerks.
For skulks, the d chamber sucks in comparision to the sensory or movement upgrades. But no one would ever get those upgrades because it was too much of an investment to get every single life as a skulk. So the idea was to wait for fades.
2 res was too much, 0 res is too little.
Something needs to be done, and there can't be free upgrades for 2 hive aliens, it just makes the skulk too damn devestating.
| QUOTE |
| Remember the good old days when skulks had 109 hp at Hive 1? And 155 with carapace? No one complained they were overpowered then, vs marines with 143 starting hp instead of today's 160. The free upgrades make all the difference in the world. |
I agree, but keep in mind those marines had medspam that worked and armor that lasted. It was a WAAAAY better armor system than now, IMO.
| QUOTE (Cxwf @ May 17 2005, 09:57 PM) |
| Remember the good old days when skulks had 109 hp at Hive 1? And 155 with carapace? No one complained they were overpowered then, vs marines with 143 starting hp instead of today's 160. The free upgrades make all the difference in the world. |
But I think the old skulk hitboxes balanced it out
| QUOTE |
| Dirm, in ANY version of NS you did not have W2 by the time hive 2 was up, then the marines were losing, hardcore. |
I wasn't trying to claim otherwise. I was just disputing Cxwf's claim:
| QUOTE |
| The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives add ZERO bullets to its lifespan. |
The armor boost leads marines to get W2 in order to maintain shotguns' efficacy.
I think it might be more fun if W2 weren't as necessary so that marines were not so strongly pushed along a particular tech path.
| QUOTE |
| Really now, can't anyone see that all of these "imbalances" have been centered around one main change, that is, the free upgrades? |
Everyone can see this. No one (I think?) disputes this. The issue is that many of us think that the game would be more fun if balanced around upgraded skulks, so we must look to other areas in order to compensate.
/me pines for 2.01, the best NS version so far...
But back on topic...I've heard two different ideas that could do something about that. Not that I want to devolve this into I&S.
But 2 res per upgrade meant skulks never upgraded, as NGE pointed out. 0 res per upgrade leads to much more lethal skulks early game, and flat out devastating ones at Hive 2. So what are the alternatives?
--Upgrades at 1 res, or
--First upgrade free, additional upgrades 2 res each
At 1 res, the cost is still negligible for Lerks and up, and not really that much for Gorges either--but skulks have to think about it now. Its not such a prohibitive cost as in 2.01, but its something. Or, at 0/2/2, everyone can get themselves their first upgrade, but you usually wouldn't see skulks bothering with a second upgrade the moment Hive 2 went up--unless they really needed it for something specific.
The only problem with these ideas is that they interact badly with the new system of losing upgrades when you evolve--actually, I'm liking the 0/2/2 cost more and more. That would prevent you from losing any money on evolving so long as you had only 1 upgrade prior. And this way it doesn't hurt the aliens early game at all, but it puts a small restriction on them when the 2nd Hive comes up, where marines are really hurting right now.
But back on topic...I've heard two different ideas that could do something about that. Not that I want to devolve this into I&S.
But 2 res per upgrade meant skulks never upgraded, as NGE pointed out. 0 res per upgrade leads to much more lethal skulks early game, and flat out devastating ones at Hive 2. So what are the alternatives?
--Upgrades at 1 res, or
--First upgrade free, additional upgrades 2 res each
At 1 res, the cost is still negligible for Lerks and up, and not really that much for Gorges either--but skulks have to think about it now. Its not such a prohibitive cost as in 2.01, but its something. Or, at 0/2/2, everyone can get themselves their first upgrade, but you usually wouldn't see skulks bothering with a second upgrade the moment Hive 2 went up--unless they really needed it for something specific.
The only problem with these ideas is that they interact badly with the new system of losing upgrades when you evolve--actually, I'm liking the 0/2/2 cost more and more. That would prevent you from losing any money on evolving so long as you had only 1 upgrade prior. And this way it doesn't hurt the aliens early game at all, but it puts a small restriction on them when the 2nd Hive comes up, where marines are really hurting right now.
I have to say it sounds promising on the first view, but on the second, it only restricts bad skulks (eg new players, mostly) while better skulks can usually kill enough enemys to make the cost worthwhile.
In my point of view an upgrade should cost an investment, but for every lifeform, not only for skulks. And since higher lifeforms benefit from the upgrades much more, it should cost them aswell more.
something along the lines of this:
Skulk and gorge 2 res per chamber upgrade
4 for the lerk
8 for the fade and
10 for onos
that way a fully upgraded killer fade would cost 74 res
and an onos 100 res
wich is actually much more like their strengh and the investment the marines have to invest to stop them
(skulk gorge and lerkres for medpacks)
(fade and onos for weapons and stuff
In my point of view an upgrade should cost an investment, but for every lifeform, not only for skulks. And since higher lifeforms benefit from the upgrades much more, it should cost them aswell more.
something along the lines of this:
Skulk and gorge 2 res per chamber upgrade
4 for the lerk
8 for the fade and
10 for onos
that way a fully upgraded killer fade would cost 74 res
and an onos 100 res
wich is actually much more like their strengh and the investment the marines have to invest to stop them
(skulk gorge and lerkres for medpacks)
(fade and onos for weapons and stuff
1 res for 1st upgrade 2 res for second 3 res for third? possibly with an increasingly long gestate time for each upgrade taken, say 2 seconds for 1st, 4 for second, 6 for third
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance.
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance.
[Edit] I'm so evil [/Edit]
| QUOTE (Anderval @ May 17 2005, 07:27 PM) |
| 1 res for 1st upgrade 2 res for second 3 res for third? possibly with an increasingly long gestate time for each upgrade taken, say 2 seconds for 1st, 4 for second, 6 for third 1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills. 2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc. the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well. with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance. |
Not a bad idea in practice, but I know myself and many others would cringe at the idea of longer guestation times.
| QUOTE (NGE @ May 18 2005, 02:53 AM) | ||
Not a bad idea in practice, but I know myself and many others would cringe at the idea of longer guestation times. |
well the gestation times was really a secondary part of the change, and wouldnt effect anything until hive two, and then only effect skulks in a rush who were actually going to get 2 upgrades
| QUOTE (Anderval @ May 17 2005, 09:01 PM) | ||||
well the gestation times was really a secondary part of the change, and wouldnt effect anything until hive two, and then only effect skulks in a rush who were actually going to get 2 upgrades |
Longer gestation times just limits an alien strategy of a skulk who wants to spend a little of his hard earned res. It should be res but not a time penalty, time penalties are the worst.
So now we're arguing over three price schemes--
1/1/1
1/2/3
0/2/2
Or keep the current price scheme:
0/0/0
Any of them could work, but I think 1/2/3 punishes the aliens more than it needs to. At 0/2/2, it would only start to affect the aliens when the second Hive came up, which is where most people complain about balance--1 Hive Aliens already have to fight pretty hard to hold their ground. But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2.
1/1/1
1/2/3
0/2/2
Or keep the current price scheme:
0/0/0
Any of them could work, but I think 1/2/3 punishes the aliens more than it needs to. At 0/2/2, it would only start to affect the aliens when the second Hive came up, which is where most people complain about balance--1 Hive Aliens already have to fight pretty hard to hold their ground. But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2.
| QUOTE (Cxwf @ May 18 2005, 06:09 AM) |
| So now we're arguing over three price schemes-- 1/1/1 1/2/3 0/2/2 Or keep the current price scheme: 0/0/0 Any of them could work, but I think 1/2/3 punishes the aliens more than it needs to. At 0/2/2, it would only start to affect the aliens when the second Hive came up, which is where most people complain about balance--1 Hive Aliens already have to fight pretty hard to hold their ground. But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2. |
thanks that you briefly ignored me.
But if you do so, can you please state why you didnīt like that suggestion?
| QUOTE |
But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2. |
Pretty much every option for upgrade cost and time that has been suggested here would be trivial to impliment. The difference between 1/1/1 and 0/2/2 ( in terms of gameplay and balance ) are so large that the implimentation effort should not factor into the decision.
I think that 1/2/3 might be a good option, since it would balance out the rfk skulks get early and mid-game, while still making upgrades worthwile to get as a skulk. (celerity focus leap skulk are worth 4 res).
However, I don't think that the gestationtimes should be changed, they are fine as they are.
However, I don't think that the gestationtimes should be changed, they are fine as they are.
I think 3.0 has really shown people the power of upgraded skulks. Before hand I don't think people really understood how big an impact they could have and upgrades were used sparingly. I think avl's idea is a step in the right direction for balance. Readding the cost won't return us to non-upgarded skulks and dc/mc/sc, it'll just force players to actually think about when to get their upgrades rather than the mindless power skulks present all game long.
Both sides are governed by extremely strong positive feedback loops.
It's a given that tech development will generally be unilaterel.
It's a given that tech development will generally be unilaterel.
I'd rather see a system where gestation times were increased instead of costs. This would stop/slow/diminish the usefulness of a the focus + celerity skulk barrage in case of a hive 2 assault or siege, while not really adding an incentive against two upgrade skulks in a larger perspective.
Ease to end the game ftw.
Ease to end the game ftw.
| QUOTE (Grendel @ May 18 2005, 06:47 AM) |
| Both sides are governed by extremely strong positive feedback loops. It's a given that tech development will generally be unilaterel. |
^^lol words
anyways...can we stop trying to nerf the aliens plz and just make marines less crappy. kthx bye
| QUOTE (Pithlit @ May 18 2005, 01:02 AM) | ||
thanks that you briefly ignored me. But if you do so, can you please state why you didnīt like that suggestion? |
I ignored you because you proposed costs of 2/4/8/10, which are HIGHER than they were in 2.01, and are almost guaranteed to be considered too high by almost everyone here. If the difference between 0 and 2 is enough to swing the balance from one team to another, whats the difference between 0 and 10 going to do?
the reason in my opinion for readding a 1res cost for the frist upgrade would be to minimise the impact extra early game rfk that skulks get has on the time of alien midgame, alternativly alien rfk could just be limited to 1-2 res per kill rather than 1-3 with a similar effect (except that marines after the first minute and before the 4th would continue to be booned).
personally i would prefer an upgrade cost over a longer gestation time, although they may have similar results in lowering the number of skulks taking as many upgrades as possible, longer upgrade times are more frustrating and would hurt gameplay more i think.
oh and, marines arnt weak, they wern't weak in b5, aliens just recieved several massive buffs which tipped the balance into their favour significantly, it doesnt make sense to mess about too much with a team that worked fine before the changes than to alter something where you know the effect it is going to have on balance
btw: 1/2/3 would probably be my favourite, or 0/2/2 with altered alien rfk, id much prefer to see these implemented than any number of random marine buffs.
personally i would prefer an upgrade cost over a longer gestation time, although they may have similar results in lowering the number of skulks taking as many upgrades as possible, longer upgrade times are more frustrating and would hurt gameplay more i think.
oh and, marines arnt weak, they wern't weak in b5, aliens just recieved several massive buffs which tipped the balance into their favour significantly, it doesnt make sense to mess about too much with a team that worked fine before the changes than to alter something where you know the effect it is going to have on balance
btw: 1/2/3 would probably be my favourite, or 0/2/2 with altered alien rfk, id much prefer to see these implemented than any number of random marine buffs.
Well, lets see what we can extrapolate about the results of these price systems:
0/0/0
1-Hive--All aliens have 1 upgrade, all the time
2-Hive--All aliens have 2 upgrades, all the time
3-Hive--All aliens have 3 upgrades, all the time
Generation of high lifeforms is at fastest.
1/1/1
1-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 1 upgrade. Skulks will usually have 1 upgrade, but not always, and will have a little slower res accumulation
2-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 2 upgrades. Skulks will be seen with 0, 1, or 2 upgrades depending on strength of alien res.
3-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 3 upgrades, Skulks 1-3.
Generation of high lifeforms slowed down slightly, but not much
1/2/3
1-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 1 upgrade. Skulks will usually have 1 upgrade, but not always, and will have a little slower res accumulation
2-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 2 upgrades (gorges may stick with 1). Skulks will usually be seen with 1 upgrade, although they may buy 2 for specific tasks.
3-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 3 upgrades. Skulks and Gorges probably 1-2.
Generation of higher lifeforms slowed down a little more
Upgraded skulks discouraged from gestating to another lifeform, because of loss of res on upgrades.
0/2/2
1-Hive--All lifeforms have 1 upgrade
2-Hive--Higher lifeforms have 2 upgrades, skulks will usually be seen with 1
3-Hive--Higher lifeforms have 3 upgrades, skulks probably 1-2.
Generation of higher lifeforms slowed down slightly, but not until the 2-Hive level.
What pattern do we like?
0/0/0
1-Hive--All aliens have 1 upgrade, all the time
2-Hive--All aliens have 2 upgrades, all the time
3-Hive--All aliens have 3 upgrades, all the time
Generation of high lifeforms is at fastest.
1/1/1
1-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 1 upgrade. Skulks will usually have 1 upgrade, but not always, and will have a little slower res accumulation
2-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 2 upgrades. Skulks will be seen with 0, 1, or 2 upgrades depending on strength of alien res.
3-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 3 upgrades, Skulks 1-3.
Generation of high lifeforms slowed down slightly, but not much
1/2/3
1-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 1 upgrade. Skulks will usually have 1 upgrade, but not always, and will have a little slower res accumulation
2-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 2 upgrades (gorges may stick with 1). Skulks will usually be seen with 1 upgrade, although they may buy 2 for specific tasks.
3-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 3 upgrades. Skulks and Gorges probably 1-2.
Generation of higher lifeforms slowed down a little more
Upgraded skulks discouraged from gestating to another lifeform, because of loss of res on upgrades.
0/2/2
1-Hive--All lifeforms have 1 upgrade
2-Hive--Higher lifeforms have 2 upgrades, skulks will usually be seen with 1
3-Hive--Higher lifeforms have 3 upgrades, skulks probably 1-2.
Generation of higher lifeforms slowed down slightly, but not until the 2-Hive level.
What pattern do we like?
1/1/1 system is best - because it affects the all stages of the aliens' game, isn't too punitive, and also it is intuitive - any new player can see each upgrade costs 1 res. Very simple, versus:
- Upgrades cost 2 res after the second hive.
or
- Upgrades cost 1 res then 2 res then 3 res.
vs.
- Upgrades cost 1 res.
- Upgrades cost 2 res after the second hive.
or
- Upgrades cost 1 res then 2 res then 3 res.
vs.
- Upgrades cost 1 res.
"they still learn how to bhop. only removing the element of timing. It puts everyone in the same positition and removes the need for scripts if people want to use space bar etc. Please give reasons behind your logic in future."
Ever since more and more people started to bhop, the eeling of ns has droped for me. I can't help but see it as a joke to see aliens constantly jumping and twitching from lef tot right. It looks stupid and it completly kills the feeling of ns. Leap is understandable and adds to the feeling but this just ruins it. Before atleast skulks would hide and climb walls, now its just how fast can i bhop, and if speed is a problem just take out bhop and make them move/strafe faster and problems solved.
Ever since more and more people started to bhop, the eeling of ns has droped for me. I can't help but see it as a joke to see aliens constantly jumping and twitching from lef tot right. It looks stupid and it completly kills the feeling of ns. Leap is understandable and adds to the feeling but this just ruins it. Before atleast skulks would hide and climb walls, now its just how fast can i bhop, and if speed is a problem just take out bhop and make them move/strafe faster and problems solved.
| QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ May 18 2005, 01:02 PM) |
| "they still learn how to bhop. only removing the element of timing. It puts everyone in the same positition and removes the need for scripts if people want to use space bar etc. Please give reasons behind your logic in future." Ever since more and more people started to bhop, the eeling of ns has droped for me. I can't help but see it as a joke to see aliens constantly jumping and twitching from lef tot right. It looks stupid and it completly kills the feeling of ns. Leap is understandable and adds to the feeling but this just ruins it. Before atleast skulks would hide and climb walls, now its just how fast can i bhop, and if speed is a problem just take out bhop and make them move/strafe faster and problems solved. |
Because hiding and climbing are most definitely not extensively used in competitive play.
If the cause of the early alien Midgame is the upgraded skulks, then isnt the problem R4K.
Lets not forget the age old discussion of R4K.
R4K is to help marines pay for meds/ammo, what is the reason for alien R4K?
Some may say, "To speed up the game", Isnt the game fast enough?
Lets not forget the age old discussion of R4K.
R4K is to help marines pay for meds/ammo, what is the reason for alien R4K?
Some may say, "To speed up the game", Isnt the game fast enough?
Adding an upgrade to make every marine spawn with a welder would help a lot I think. And if you put it on the armory, make it quick.
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