Excuse this, as I just need to state what I want changed about Co (yes it's selfish) and it'll make me calm down and be all happy and flowery again... (plus it's Yo Regs night and I can't get on the server *grumbles*)

Co, unbalanced as shite...why?

Lifeforms are got too quickly and also too "super powered" too quickly, this in comparison to how hard it is to get any success out of marines without taking the A2-->jp route (basically) that is.

Solutions (a combination of, not necessarily all)..

- Make lerk, fade and onos one point more expensive?
- Make the shotgun available straight away, without a weapon upgrade (to tie in with NS:Classic)
- Actually make what you're killing count, it's absolutely unnacceptable to spend so long trying to kill a redemption onos only to get a pitiful amount of experience for it, when them slaughtering you gives them the same gains
- Fix redemption (see other peoples suggestions I guess)!
Edit: - Only allow aliens experience within a certain radius of their hive.

*breathes* thanks, feel much better now.

I figured it out Here

Two points get you a nuisance lerk that's basically countered by resupply.
Three points get you a paper fade that dies to two shotties.
Four points get you a target sign of an onos.

The lifeforms cost more than their respective point values. Unless you're just hanging around the hive, a base higher lifeform just won't get as many kills as a skulk with some upgrades.

I do think redeeming should give just a tad bit of experience to the marines....I've redeemed 7 times in a row as a skulk with cara, dammit. That's just sad.

omg sky i know jsut what ya mean, drools, its even so viable in NS maps only problem is most of hte tiem it takes you miles away from the fight, dat can be a bit rigarous and time consuming but still it smashes moral, and furiates people to the point were there consertration is broken by it allowing them to slip up, allowing other aliens and you to take advantage


err sorry to this thread no comment

some excellent points there. most importantly

The issue I have with aliens (on CO) is that there is no prerequisite for higher level aliens, unlike with marines for HA and/or HMG. An alien can go straight from skulk to fade, and not need to take anything in between.

I think it would be better to require aliens to take some upgrades before they can upgrade classes, and maybe make it so that the upgrades are from specific categoeies.

-For lerk, they need one upgrade from movement chamber tree before going lerk. While only a small requirement, this will delay early game lerks a little bit.
-For fade, they need one upgrade from movement chamber tree and one upgrade from defense chamber tree before going fade.
-For onos, they need one upgrade from each chamber tree before going onos. While this will mean it takes 7 upgrades to go onos, that is exactly the same number of upgrades it takes a marine to reach JP/HA with an HMG/GL.

I would prefer this instead of increasing the cost for other classes. Since marines are forced to take other upgrades before making it to a 'key class' (like JP/HA/HMG/GL etc) then I think it would be reasonable to require aliens to take a one or two upgrades before evolving to certain classes.

Regards,

Savant

Good idea Savant, ultimately it is just that these classes come in. It's all well and good saying a "paper fade" dies to two shotties...but if the marines have gone for ammo 1 and shotties, that's two levels gone. Plus resupply for that lerk? and what about armour one (despite 3.03) to stop the parasite one bite kills.

Just to tackle that "counterable" lerk, and destroy that "paper fade" as well as avoid focus skulks in the early game, you need to spend 4 points.

Marines have to cover all of their bases too early. They can't get in to the game because their upgrade path is so limited. It's armour armour armour until the bigger aliens come out in the hope of staving off the kharaa experience flow...and then it's ammo guns guns to keep the bigger life forms at bay...and then if you're lucky you'll manage a jetpack. The alternative? Well you go for the jetpack straight away and take a gamble, hoping that you can hit the hive enough with your level 0/1 lmg to get levels for a GL to end the game quickly as a rambo ftw.

It's this that is pathetic, given the aliens freedom to choose their route of harassment.

Edit: To cut a long story short, stop using paper based arguments to try and counter real term arguments. Yes the fade on its own is **** against marines. Yes the lerk is easily counterable. Yes the focus skulk is easily counterable. Yes the onos is a big target for a big gun...and if you only ever faced ONE of these things alone then the game would be fine. But seeming you know you'll counter all of these probably before the 7-10 minute mark, and more so they'll be working together to amplify their individual powers to overall team dominance (lerks sporing helps the whole team. Fade hit and runs help the whole team), marines have no hope in hell in achieving a viable upgrade strategy...only ever winning if the aliens DO go down one specific route and forget to lerk (for example), or if they really are abysmal as a team....but why should we be saying "the game works because a really good marine team can only beat a really **** alien team, everything else is gg aliens"?

By the way, one of the other things I was trying to hit on with my suggestion was removing some of the 'momentum' that can be gained simply by using a certain combo. Here's what I mean...

If marines had the ability to choose a shottie WITHOUT getting damage one first, then even though the shottie would be weaker, it would still give them too much power right off the bat. It's the same reason that focus was made to be 2 points instead of one. Focus was just too good on it's own in the very early game. (I'm talking about focus before the armour change in 3.0.3)

So if you make it so that a person needs one upgrade before they can go lerk, that means they need three upgrades in total. On the marine side, a person can get an HMG after three upgrades if they wanted to go that way, which is a fair counter IMHO.

If you make it so that a fade needs two upgrades, then that fade will cost 5 upgrades overall, which is the same as an armor 1 marine with a lvl3 shottie. Overall it's pretty comparable as well.

For onos, making them wait until they get 3 upgrades is the same as 7 levels for marines, and so a level 7 marine could be armour 2, with jetpack, and have a lvl1 HMG. That's a pretty fair fight overall.

By comparison, if you let someone have an onos by rushing the 4 points straight up, even though a marine COULD rush JP with 4 points, they would be sitting with a lvl0 LMG in their hands, which is pretty useless as a counter.

I just don't want to see alien evolution costs increased, we can achieve the same result by just putting in some prerequisites for upper level evolutions.

Regards,

Savant

I'm moving this because I truly believe somewhere in all of that is a great way to handle combat...

So aliens can't gain any exp at all unless somewhat near a hive? And biting the CC gives no exp? *thumbs up*

Aye, it just seems completely counter productive to have a sign say "you are defending" as if it is only there to plead with the aliens to act a certain way to balance the game. Lets stop CC munching and base camping be the number one tactic for super skulks.

Of course when you say "somewhat near" a hive I would say that "somewhat near" should encapsulate at least some of the mid-ground battle area...such as on core. Aliens shouldn't be punished in terms of exp for chasing pesky marines out of their hive.

Trouble is that while Savants suggestion is easily implementable in the next version (in some ways), to start screwing around with the idea of no exp within a radius of the CC, or outside the radius of the hive...that would require some maps to change a bit, so that it doesn't end up with marines being able to camp outside the hive area while knowing that aliens clearing them out will get nothing for it.

gaining xp within only a certain radius of the hive is not something I think would be good. as I said in the other thread.

Resion being, Aliens do need to push out some to prevent the marines from setting up a spawn camp. If the only place to ambush is @ the hive, then if the marines break through that spot, its GG.

PLus as a marine it would be pretty boring if aliens only ambushed in the same spot.

Aliens need to push out, and prevent the marine from ever reaching the hive. or only letting a few.

so you need 7 points to go onos? you could have a lvl 3 hmg and armor lvl 2 by then. you need 3 points to go lerk? you could have lvl 1 gl by then, a lerk would be useless.

Ignore me

Maybe I just play on public servers with the best rines and worst aliens ever, but I find that if a rine team doesn't rush into alien ambushes, but instead waits for the inevitable stupid aliens to rush them, then marines can have shotguns before aliens have lerks. I was playing against 2 aliens (as in, 1 v 2), and my last death was just before I got shotgun. This idea would work if: lerk, fade, and onos were only 1, 2, and 3 points respectively, but lerk needed 2 upgrades, fade 3, and onos 4. This would mean that the lifeforms came out at the same levels, but weren't pure cannon fodder for marines who didn't rambo but instead used teamwork. But I don't think that's fair on the aliens. Think of this: For a skulk to go paper fade, it needs to gain 3 levels. For a marine to get shotgun and resupply, he needs to gain 3 levels. The marine benefits from every point he spends, while the alien effectively wastes 2 points. So if we assume that the skulk is trying to lerk then fade, and the marine is trying to shotgun rush, here's what happens:
Level | Skulk | Marine
0 | |
1 | |w1 - Still even levels, as damage 1 has no extra effect on a non-cara skulk
2 |Lerk |w1+sg - This would only be a fair fight if the marine refused to move into the hive, a half-decent marine will win with a sg versus a melee lerk
3 |Fade |w1+sg+rs - Very hard for a marine to win, if both have equal skill
The problem with this is that a marine of equal skill as a paper skulk will win, unless the marine is also an idiot, and rushes into ambushes. So it would more than likely end up as a marine with w3+a2+sg+rs+jp versus a paper fade. Either that, or I should be in a top ranking clan, with my 1337 rine versus skulk skills. Every player you add to both teams makes co_ easier for marines. 2 skulks will die to 2 rines of equal skill, unless they ambush. 6 skulks will die to 6 rines. 12 skulks will die to 12 rines. Perhaps, instead of suggesting that aliens should be nerfed, you should learn to click and move the mouse at the same time, to perform a function we call "winning".

That said, if the teams are equally skilled, the smarter or more co-ordinated team will win. If aliens rush and marines camp, they die. If aliens ambush and marines rush, they win. I can almost guarantee that the aliens will rush, and so a rine team will almost always win.

Well, why not tie the lifeforms to the hive abilities?


Skulk, Gorge, and Lerk don't have a prerequestie.

Fade requires Hive 1 ability Unlocked.

Onoes requires Hive 2 ability Unlocked.

Less variance, but assures it'll be longer until they show up.

so basicaly you want to get rid of half the exp an kharaa can get requirer an onos to have 3 upgrades from each chamber pool and then the required # of points .

heck no

you say that the new onos at lvl 7 is equivilant to a lvl2 armor lvl 3 wep with a hmg well that marine can kick that onos but simply because he has ranged weapons and the onos doesent heck he'd need 3 more lvl after that to be able to change at said marine and that dosent even take into acount the cross fire from 3 marine even in a small game would mean certain death for said onos and for the lighter life forms it would be even harder one point shottys vs vanila skulk means dead skulk 98% of the time as is in co ( 3.0) marines allready get shottys fast enough through this set of points p1 resupply ,p2 weps lvl 1,p3 shotty. which is hard enough to counter as any thing but fade/onos as most marins are realy good shots with shoty and it only takes one hit most of the times and heck the gestation times are long enought as is we need to make them even further into mid game should not happen ever

Venting blind Rage................................................vented

ok better now talking form some one who rushes to be onos it is hard enough to stay alive as vanila onos as inate regen only gives you about 10 hp per sec and as onos you have no ranged weaps and many a times iv snuck into a room only to find wep lvl 2 hmgs that turns me into soup, now you want me to have to get 3 more points while the marines would most likey have armor and lvl 3 weps this would just plainly unbalance the game to a point of no return

so other wise vote No

I recently got 28:0 as a lone marine versus 3 aliens. I was level 10 before the 5 minute mark, and the aliens were still level 1. The game eventually ended when the cc was bitten to death. I see just why aliens need to be nerfed in co_...

Then of course the next round it was me versus 3 marines. I faded early and was level 10 in under four minutes. Later in that round the game filled to be a 7v7. Do you know why I was able to win? Quite simple really, you see I ambushed as a skulk, parasited, etcetera. I ended up with a score of 56:2, with 0 deaths as fade. If the marines are stupid enough to rush into my ambush and die, I shouldn't be forced to stay skulk. The previous game proved skulks can't rush a half-decent shotgun marine, at least not until leap+focus+cele+silence+cara. Or get 3 aliens with leap to rush him. Either way, the marine has the advantage early game. And if the marines move in a group once they have shotguns, it's good game aliens. So why should the aliens be forced to attempt to take down the shotgun mob as skulks? Why not let them evolve so that they can actually take advantage of the hive healing?

So in the new system..
2 points for marines = shotgun.
2 points for alien = 2 upgrades.

Decent marines will simply stomp decent aliens at that point.

Besides, I find I do reasonably well as a marine going mine->w1->SG->w2->w3 ...

I don't generally don't touch armor until the onos come out. Yeah, I die a bunch, but I also leave carpets of mines around and tend to be just barely behind the aliens in levels. So your A2->JP method isn't the only way to proceed.

That said, no XP for killing any marine structure strikes me as reasonable.

Here's what I suggest:

There are two types of upgrades, research and equipment/lifeforms. Research points, when spent, are not lost on death. Equipment and lifeforms are lost on death, but you get the points back to spend on them again, similar to how alien lifeforms work now. Players start out with one point to spend. The goal is to bring Combat and Classic closer together. However, players in Combat are not punished for dying as they are in Classic.

For Marines:

Research (<preq> - <upgrade> +<cost>):
<none> - Resupply +1
<none> - Catalyst +1
<none> - Scan +1
<none> - Motion Tracking +1
<none> - Weapons 1 +1
Weapons 1 - Weapons 2 +1
Weapons 2 - Weapons 3 +1
<none> - Armor 1 +1
Armor 1 - Armor 2 +1
Armor 2 - Armor 3 +1
<none> - Advanced Armory +1
Advanced Armory - Prototype lab +1

Equipment (<preq> - <upgrade> +<cost>):
<none> - Shotgun +2
<none> - Mine +1
<none> - Welder +1
Advanced Armory - HMG +2
Advanced Armory - GL +2
Prototype Lab - JP +2
Prototype Lab - HA +2

Here's an example:
1 - Mine
2 - Shotgun
3 - Resupply
4 - Armor 1
5 - Weapons 1
6 - Advanced Armory
7 - Prototype Lab
8 - (Save)
9 - JP
10 - HMG

Marines are slightly weakened. The costs are the same, but Marines no longer benefit from the required Weapon and Armor upgrades, and they have to rebuy their equipment every time they die. However, Marines are no longer locked into their equipment decisions, giving them more flexibility. For example, Marines can purchase mines early on in the game, but purchase other things with that point later in the game. Personally, I think that the Hand Grenade upgrade should be combined with the Advanced Armory upgrade, simply because it's not worth a single point on it's own. Still, Marines are required to work as a team, as Marines cannot afford to tech up and rambo by themselves. A Marine who gets all the Armor and Weapon tech won't have good equipment, while a Marine who gets the best equipment won't have good Armor or Weapons tech.

For Aliens:

Research (<preq> - <upgrade> +<cost>):
<none> - Defense Chamber +1
<none> - Movement Chamber +1
<none> - Sensory Chamber +1
<none> - Hive 2 +1
Hive 2 - Hive 3 +2

Lifeforms (<preq> - <upgrade> +<cost>):
<none> - Gorge +1
<none> - Lerk +2
<none> - Fade +3
<none> - Onos +4

Here's an example:
1 - Movement Chamber (evolves Celerity)
2 - <save>
3 - Lerk
4 - Fade
5 - Hive 2
6 - Defense Chamber (evolves Regeneration)
7 - Onos
8 - <save>
9 - Hive 3
10 - Sensory Chamber (evolves Focus)

Evolves are free, as in Classic. Available chamber evolves will flash. You pick which chamber upgrade you want by evolving an upgrade from that chamber. Once this chamber is picked, it is locked into the Hive level, as in Classic. You can only have one evolved upgrade per chamber type, as in Classic. Two chamber upgrades requires Hive 2. All chamber upgrades require Hive 3. Although Aliens are nerfed pretty badly, they can no longer fall into the "super-skulk" trap, where a player cannot evolve into higher lifeforms at level 10. Early on, Aliens will need to make smart chamber choices. However, by level 10 they are fully teched up, and should be able to finish off the Marines. This should encourage shorter combat games.

Personally, I'd suggest the reverse, that you have yet to play with a decent marine team that knows how to effectively use tactics in combat.

1. Send a bait marine in.
2. Skulks respond by coming out of hiding or sitting there and getting nailed, obviously the first, your bait marine does a little bit of damage and dies.
3. When a skulk comes out of hiding, he gets nailed by the rest of the team sitting at a distance.

If the skulks clue in and instead turn to go for the command chair, their speed advantage is lost, because your group is already in an attacking position on the hive.

This is of course assuming equal levels of skill among the teams.

Result: Skulk XP is divided by the number of skulks at the camp, marine XP is divided by the number of people at the camp -1 (since their bait marine is dead)
Marines end up with slightly more XP. Rince and repeat. If your marines are good enough, they even wait for the bait to come back and run it again, thus furthering their xp lead.

Marines with patience win combat. This is why the 10 minute limit was put in, so that marines couldn't just sit-camp-win. Bait does the job of shortening the patience required.

Now, a single lerk on the alien team and this problem is fixed because the spore forces the marines to get out of their camp. Under your setup, that lerk wouldn't come along until the marines already had their third level.

Really, if all you want to do is delay the alien evolutions, be direct about it. Increase gestation time. Screwing around with other things simply opens up more opportunities to sway the balance in ways you didn't think about.

[1] Playing around with EXP.

I suggest removing the CC entirely, make it invulnerable or making it give no XP.
Give aliens back XP over time, but reduce their XP gains from kills by 1/2 or some to be balanced number.

Now, aliens are encouraged to camp, and just rushing for kills won't give them enough XP as currently from killing. A longer game means they have a good chance. The numbers should be such that even if a skulk kills 5 marines, there still isn't enough XP to get 2 points. Time, and defending the hive, will be the primary advantage for the aliens.

[2] Map design. Rework all maps to incorporate phase gates and weld points a la Daimos. But make there be multiple PGs and destinations. So marines can cut down on travelling time. You can't be camping near the MS entrance if the marines just phase to 2 different locations near your hive.

[Rant] Longevity. Point for point, aliens are superior to marines of similar level. The ONLY thing marines have going for them is JP. And as long as ONE alien player makes the sacrifice to go xeno then web gorge, marines can't win.

Marines can't do much because they don't live long enough. Aliens are FAST, so they can run back to the hive to heal and back again before marines advance far. Aliens can HEAL without the hive.

Marines, can RESUPPLY HP, but it is VERY easy to land TWO bites, or a FOCUS bite, or XENOCIDE, which INSTA-KILLS marines if they have 0 armour.

And it is VERY easy to get to 0 armour. Blinking assault fades, LERK GAS, XENOCIDE THAT DOES NOT KILL.

And even if marines have welders, the attacks come hard and fast, so there will not be time to weld, espcially when they get closer to the hive. Furthermore, marines will use up 1 point for a welder, which they really cannot afford to give.

[3] Package multiple items into an upgrade for marines. e.g. Demolitions package - HG and Mine. Utility Package - Cat-pack and Welder. Intel package - MT and Scanning.

[4] Big bad alien lifeforms. Xeno and focus are teething problems for marines, but is somewhat manageable. What is raping them is the fade and onos that dies at MS, and is back to defend at the hive against 0 armour marines. Even worse when they have redempt.

Increasing the gestation time is 1 solution, but it still isn't much of a penalty, albeit it can help marines in rushes. Instead, I recommend this as punishment for losing the lifeform. After all, you don't get a free flow of fades and onos in classic, do you?

Let's say you are a fade. You die. The +3 levels you saved up drops to +0. So you can't re-fade instantly. However, this EXP level slowly builds up again until you reach back to +3. You don't lose the EXP, but it recharges slowly so you can't insta-fade again. An onos is a meaner beast, so it takes longer to recharge. After all, it doesn't take 10 seconds to get 50 res to refade in classic.

Of course, redemption will then give problems. There are hordes of redemption threads out there, and this ability really needs fixing to be more certain for classic, and a penalty for combat. I like the idea of a long cooldown timer for redemption, as that would help enormously for both gameplay modes.

[5] Mutually exclusive aliens upgrades. e.g. Redemption aliens can take carapace. Just an idea, to limit the more uber combinations.


Edit:

Sand storm: