This I can understand. So, iirc, you are saying the only reason we dont see any real results to this question is because of latency (distance) issues between two clans (one that chooses to script and one that doesn't). So what we need is an american clan that doesnt script, and is relatively skilled.

Hop to it

It would be more likely solution to have a European clan use scripts, rather than an American clan not use scripts.

There seems to be more demand in the European leagues to allow some scripts (the size of this demand is up to debate, but is still there regardless)

Most, if not all, American teams either use scripts themselves, or don't use scripts but are different to those who do use them.

It is easier to go from not using scripts, to using scripts, than the other way around.

Which is why the european league would have an easier time adjusting.

http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showforum=62


I think people are reading too much into these questions Plain and simple, I believe that a team that scripts would have an advantage over a non scripting team. Now when I say advantage, Im not saying "uber scripts to play teh game for ju!" or "scripts give you skills", Im talking about the differences between the two playing styles. Which, the concensus here I gather is scripting does make things easier (be it an alias that binds your "say_team" health request to a radio call, or one that unloads a pistol at max rate of fire).

Here is my thoughts on Pros to scripting:
Less key smashing.
Removes amount of keys needing to be pressed at once (ie, the sixth finger syndrome)
Remove the disadvantage of taking your hands off the directional keys(arrows/wasd/etc) to change weapons.
Minimizes the time between actions (ie removes human error in switching weapons)

Would someone like to continue with the cons of scripting... then even perhaps some pros/cons to non scriptering?

This isn't blocked by mp_bs - your arguement just failed and your slip is showing.

It is still a script, and one might argue that blocking only part of the alledged advantage giving scripts is better than blocking none of them. The arguement still holds.

1) There are many ways to not script and reduce key smashing (I lerk and almost never have to "smash" keys)
2) Once again, proper key setups alleviate the need for mutations to get more fingers/hands/arms
3) You do not have to remove your hands from the directional keys. There is a reason Microsoft and Logitech make 5 button mice (and do not use the left handed argument: I AM left handed, I use a 4 button mouse with a single thumb button, and have never had a problem with switching weapons. I also do not use wasd, so the numbers aren't RIGHT THERE in front of my movement hand like you righties have).
4) There is more error in scripting weapon switching than doing so manually with direct weapon binds. "bind mouse4 slot 2" "bind mouse2 slot 1" "bind mouse5 slot 3" is more accurate, reliable, and faster than any script you can come up with.

In other words, none of the things you listed as advantages for scripting are really advantages to scripting. What you listed were problems inherent to any FPS game that affect the novice gamer. Once you learn how to control the game more, a better control setup is possible, and this fixes most, if not all, of the problems beyond basic end user skill.

Sure they are. You are arguing alternatives to scripting, but my Pros are unaffected; there is more then one way to skin a cat, afterall. If you say that its not possible to do any of the above Pros with scripting, then of course they wouldnt be advantages.

A legal program from the outside of hl ?

I like to customize my game too which is why I use a half-life command called alias to make binds that are super kicky awesome. I then play on mp_bs 0 servers where this is a common practice.

Sometimes though I want to play without having to worry about playing to help my team so I join a mp_bs 1 server or a combat server and dominate. This is what NS is all about.

your personal stance has no effect on whether there should be a BS_0 or BS_1 tournament.

There is no justification for this post, as it is an attack against competitive players who use scripts.

This is not an arguement of whether scripts are beneficial or not, this is a moot debate as tournaments should be allowed.

Your post is passive-aggressive flame against those who use scripts.

Its good though, its nice to weed out those who know what they are talking about from those who think they are. One step closer to keeping this forum for competitive players.

No, the point Firewater is trying to make here is that ghams post is off topic and nearly a flame. Although I dont approve of Firewater taking action on behalf of the forum administrators or moderators, untill a decision is made regarding these forums I suspect this is something that will be seen more often.

Please, as Ive begged earlier, stay on topic in regards to tournament play and the outcome of using BS_1 and BS_0 configurations.

yes because thats my ultimate goal. to satisfy the needs of some random pubbers.

now thats ignorant...

there are even clanners who agree with bs 1

Europeans.

yup










so what?

The sooner you make a decision, the sooner I can stop gathering evidence, and the sooner I or any other competitive player does not have to establish points against the inexperienced.

I too did this right after season 4 cal finals

People like to use space instead of mwheel.

Preference.

I'm waiting for you to stop spewing bile.

<_<
>_>

Scripts are like aimbots

Anyway i am still waiting for Malibu to answer the following question

What scripts have you been using?

This applies the principal of a mnemonic keyboard. Slightly more complicated key sequences are much more efficient if your fingers never have to change keys.

I can tap left and right mouse in simple sequences to control exactly when I swipe. Leap is even easier. Right click to leap, left click to bite. Metabolism and parasite confuse the issue, but not that much.

I'm not a very good NS player and these scripts haven't made me a great player but they have made me a better player. Maybe the return on investment is reduced the further along the skill curve you go, but it is an outright lie to claim that scripts can't make a player better.

This question differs from the general scripting debate in that (obviously) it is only asking about competitive players. A popular argument against scripts is that a player should not need to know about things outside of the game in order to play the game properly. This argument is weaker when applied to competitive players, as they are more dedicated to the game, and more likely to seek out such knowledge. Competitive players already spend much time tweaking configs and changing crosshairs and such, and it would not take much more time to use scripts. In addition, as competitive players are in clans, they do not even need to figure things out themselves--they just need one teammate who can figure things out for the whole clan.

On to the other, more general arguments, that still apply slightly differently to clanning:

I have not followed many scripting debates in the ns.com forums, as they are generally full of so much drivel, so I am sure the points I am about to make have been made hundreds of times, but they are so clear to me that I cannot see how the above argument can still be made in earnest.

Here are some claims to try out for size:
"If using non-default key-bindings doesn't give an advantage as so many claim, why can't people play without them?"
"If custom crosshairs don't give an advantage as so many claim, why can't people play without them?"
"If disabling music..."
"If labeled minimaps..."
"If tweaking net settings (cl_updaterate/cl_cmdrate/ex_interp/ex_extrapmax)..."
"If disabling mouse acceleration..."
"If disabling vsync/fixing winxp refresh rate..."

All of these things are nice. All are unanimously accepted by the community as legitimate adjustments to your game for competitive play. All are done in the hope of gaining an advantage. All require knowledge external to straight gameplay to implement. None can be done through the in-game menu.

People will customize things to what they think suits them. I have been using mouse2 to jump since 1998. I like using my mouse button to jump. My mousewheel is rather stiff, and is not appropriate for bunny hopping or pistol-firing. Should I be forced to research which mice have loose wheels, go out and spend money on such a mouse, and then use a different config?

So many of these external tweaks are widely implemented in the competitive community. Why do scripts stand out from the rest?

So, in summary: clan players already tweak the hell out of their game, so what are a few scripts?

The obvious counter to that is "well what is an aimbot but another tweak?"

I am operating under the assumption that the two main scripts both used by pro-scripters and complained about by anti-scripters are 3jump and pistol script. Both merely repeat a command. Anti-scripters generally achieve the same effect via the mouse wheel. If anyone has concerns about any other scripts, please bring them up.

Let us consider some scenarios:

I do not have a mouse wheel. Clearly a person with a mouse wheel has an advantage over me.

I get a mouse, and it has a rather loose wheel, so that I can turn it quickly with ease.
I'm sort of tired of having to turn the mouse so much, so I make my own mouse where I can nudge the wheel a bit and it is loose enough to turn a few times on its own.

That is too inaccurate for me, as it often turns too much, and stops me from issuing other commands. I add a locking mechanism to the wheel so that it turns exactly three times.

I still don't like having to nudge the wheel in that direction, so I add a button to my mouse that moves a lever that pushes the wheel for me.

I want to jump from the keyboard, so I write some software that allows me to bind a key in windows to send a signal to my mouse to trigger the lever to spin the wheel.

That might be considered third-party software, so I instead have it send an RF signal directly to the lever trigger.

I don't like having the weight on my mouse, so I move the lever-wheel contraption off the mouse and to a separate place on my desk.


Where exactly is the line drawn? Is the cutoff exactly where you no longer have to physically apply force for each individual wheel-click? I have used (rather annoying) mice where the wheel would turn an extra time or two after I stopped. Should such a mouse be illegal? I don't see how one can be against scripts (which tend to manifest in high-level NS mostly as the automated repeating of commands) but think the mouse wheel is A-OK.

My opinion is that since 3jump and pistol scripts basically perform the same function as a common piece of hardware, they are okay.

I don't really see any way (or reason, for that matter) to defend such things as leap/bite or blink/swipe, except to say that they suck and competitive players don't use them. Scripts that do things like this that isn't easily replicable via hardware are rather more shady. Unfortunately, "replicability by hardware" isn't a defining criterion, as most people consider things like "request a med and say_team med" or "scores + netgraph bind" to be perfectly harmless, but these cannot be done with hardware. I do not know what condition one would use to judge these, but they seem to be much less controversial, so I won't bother with them

But the question is: do they provide enough of an advantage to worry about? The answer is[ no.

As an example, pit someone from Exigent vs. someone who has not played cometitively, but who is still reasonably familiar with NS. Make the Exigent player a skulk, and the new player a marine.


Scenario 1: default configs, only changeable through the GUI. (ie: hud_fastswitch, movement keys, etc.)

Winner: The skulk from Exigent. Simply put, the skulk will outclass the marine skill-wise and take the marine down.

Scenario 2: Give the marine an advanced config file with several scripts like pistol doubleshot, crouchjump and so on.

Winner: Still the skulk from Exigent. Even though the marine is able to crouchjump perfectly and fire his pistol faster, it still wouldn't help him if the Exi skulk came flying around a corner at 500 units per second and was all over him in an instant.

Scenario 3: Give the marine spiked models and sounds.

The winner for this is up in the air. Having some idea of where a skulk is before you normally would could let you kill it; especially if the skulk tried an ambushing tactic. On the other hand, if the skulk snuck up on the marine from behind, or simply moved to fast for the marine to track him, then the fight would still probably go to the skulk.

Scenario 4: Give the marine an aimbot and a wallhack.

Winner: The marine. If the marine knew exactly where the skulk was and had perfect aim, the skulk would die +99% of the time.

So you used scripts to fit your playstyle better hence providing more control to your game. Nothing at all wrong with that. Of course giving you greater ability to control the game the way you want will make you a better player. What's wrong with that? It's all a matter of preference, I know your scripts would hamper my fading.

Now you've moved the argument from something that can be instrumented ( K/D ratio, mean time between deaths etc ) into something totally intangible. Would it not be for each player to define what is worth worrying about?

So your answer might be no, but I'm sure there are lots of people educated in the ways of scripting who would disagree with you.


And comparing a beginning player to a delta player is pointless. Compare two delta players of equal skill if you want any meaningful comparisons.

I never said there was anything wrong with it or right with it. I'm simply stating that scripts can make a difference to a player's game effectiveness. Any pro-script argument you present that tries to state otherwise is going to do nothing but undermine your case.

Which keys were you using for blink/leap/bite previously?

I don't think competitive players believe that scripts can't make a player better, it's just that we tend to think they don't have that much effect at high levels.

No one sane would argue that a new skulk would do better with trying to use 1/3 to leap then bite than he would with a leap/bite script. I'm sure everyone believed Voogru when he said he got a leap/bite script and magically tripled his score .

Along the same lines as your post, some time ago I changed my leap/blink and bite/swipe keys from 3 and 1 to e and q. I, too, saw a decent improvement in my ability to perform the appropriate actions, making me a better player. Obviously, me changing my binds is considered okay. The clan I am in had a player who, until recently, used the arrow keys for movement and couldn't bring up the minimap or talk on ventrilo without taking his hand off his movement keys.

The whole scripting debate has become, as tends to happen with most controversial points, rather convoluted.

You made a strong point that scripts can, indeed, improve one's gameplay. This is a point often made by anti-scripters (though I realize that, in your case, you are probably just pointing out a flaw in one side's claims, and not necessarily choosing sides). It is not clear to me whether this point is supposed to stand on its own as an argument against scripting (in which case, it holds no water, as I discussed in my previous post), or (more likely) this orginated solely as a counter-argument against the pro-scripters' obvious claim "this whole debate is irrelevant anyway since scripts aren't that useful".

That makes this post a rebuttal to a possibly imagined argument, and entirely worthless in the case that your post is just countering a counter-argument, rather than supporting an initial argument.

Of course, all posts in this thread are rather worthless anyway, as scripting is a religious issue. I just like writing long posts that everyone will skip over.