tjosan:

As far as everyone playing on the same playing field, here:
bind space "+jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump"
Now that the big secret script has been revealed, everyone is on the same playing field. You don’t even have to download files (crosshairs, huds, fake ambients). It is hardly unethical or harmful to anyone. If a league defines a script as being legal everyone can use it; everyone is on the same playing field. It is not as though some players can’t 'afford' the scripts. ‘We define’ the field; any such arguments, made by anyone, is pointless.


You said it your self, current blockscripts has little effect on bhopping because of mwheel...but errhehhh wait...we have established that mwheel and 3jump should be clasified together, Tjosan has agreed (read the quotes). It is extreme hypocritical believe in blockscripts and believe in mousewheel, therefore timing jumps would be done by a single timed key.


That’s the bottom line-- Do you think the game would be more enjoyable, more competitive, and simply better if EVERY players were suddenly forced to time the jumps with a single key?
I do not.
You do.
This is where I leave it up to the players to decide.

Skulking would be totally redefined. The game style of Natural Selection as we know it would be redefined. There would be outrage. There would be a MAJOR drop in competitive play. YA YA YA that is all speculation but YOUR idea that removing an aided jump system would improve game play is a hell of a lot more speculated than mine.

I would have much rather seen a system such as quake style jumping, already included in many games. It would allow new players to naturally gain an understanding of bhopping instead of labeling it. Furthermore it would ‘not’ sever the skill separation between new players and extremely skilled players. The skill gap would remain but the new players would more ‘naturally’ reach the level of higher players. Instead we sink DEEPER, giving the easily influenced public communities a variable that mite as well be known as mp_blockallthingsbad. Players today are accused of scripts on ‘blocked’ server more than they ever were because mp_bs existed. Given that I believe aided jump timing IMPROVES gameplay removing the wigglewalk script is hardly worth the downfalls. I refuse to support a system that is moving in the wrong direction and separating the community at the same time.

Have you actually read my posts?

Nvm, I cant be bothered with this anymore.

tjosan has stated that he belives that blockscripts should block the use of mousewheel as well. Read his posts before you start ranting and try to come up with counter-arguments.

just because there are ways around it, doesnt mean everyone will use them.

the aim of bs 1 is to stop as many people as possible, and it WILL stop some as i know many people who like to script but consider windows macro's immorral and/or over the top.

so no, it isnt pointless.

You guys who advocate the removal of both mwheel and bs 1 on do realize that NS as a competitive game is struggling to expand, right? You do know that until recently people thought it was dying, right?

Do you really think removing 3jump and mwheel and requiring every new clanner to learn how to time jumps within 1/100 of a second is going to gain NS players? Do you think that it's going to retain all the clanners who jump with mwheel?

NS is a GAME. NONE of us get paid to play this GAME. GAMES are FUN. Practicing jump timing every night for nights on end to get within 1/100 of a second and to get reliable at it during a game is NOT FUN.

It's not a difficult concept to understand. Emphasize the skillful elements of the game that are FUN to improve. All this harping about how clicking a mouse fast and timing a spacebar without a 3jump being skills makes my ears bleed.

It's. A. Game. Treat it like one.

Okay ive said it before, and Ill say it again.

Using Scripts is like eating Icecream with Hotfudge
NotUsing Scripts is like eating icecream without hotfudge.

If I have the choice, I'd much rather have my Icecream with Hotfudge, but, if it came down to it, I'd still eat the icecream.

Now let me put it this way.
CAL for example lets people have Icecream and the choice of using hotfugde or not (hotfudge being easily avalable to everyone)

While another leage has A ban on hotfudge sayings its not fair to the people who dont like it because they dont get as much food as the other players because of their choice.

So if you had to choose between the two. Would you rather pay an hours worth of work for 3 scoops of ice cream that you can also get hotfudge for free.

Or would you rather pay an hours worth of work for 3 scoops of icecream that you do not get the choice of hotfudge or not.

Ok scripting is part of the game. Every game off of the half-life engine people script. I have never seen so much crying about scripts since I joined the ns community.

I played competitve games on the half-life engine for a while now, all different games. None of the other communities even had a peep about scripts. They are PART OF THE GAME!!!! The other communities knew this? What the hell makes NS so different? Same engine?

You know how you stop all the damn complaining about scripts get rid of bs_1 totally. After that, no one can complain at all. I believe the choice is up to the person if they want to script or not.

Scripts do not shoot aliens for you, they do not aim for you. Things that do that are called hacks.

I think some people need to grow up and accept things how they are. Get off your high horse because you are only splitting the community when we should be trying to make it grow. SCRIPTS ARE NOT HAX!!!

Just my 2 cents!

--

i wish the pro scripters would read the anti scripters points and make counter comments instead of just making random analagies that have already been pointed out to be stupid.

You think that's a one way street?

Obviously. hehe. Just add mp_blockwheel for the NS extremists ! And maybe mp_forcejumpkey too. Fun fun.

Seriously though, I am wondering why all the fuss about scripts in this community, I have never seen this for another mod. Why not block the real abusive scripts (leap without energy for example) regardless of server option and then let people choose how they want to play ? I don't see why a +3jump would be lame and the mwheel would be ok.

And, blocking the mousewheel ? I view this really as retrograding. Do we really need a universal police to control what we bind to what key ? Should the skill of a player be determined from how he can hit his jump key with the right timing in 1/100 of a second, taking lag and framerate fluctuation into account ?

I think we should let the players customize their game as long as it is not exploitive, instead of imposing limits 'because is takes more skill to do it with lots of arbitrarily imposed restrictions'.

Personally i still don't get the issue, no matter how many times you explain it. My clan has been playing on bs_0 servers since forever and you know what: We've never lost a round beause of a script giving an unfair advantage, we've never lost to a team because suddenly they all turned on their scripts and became ace shooters with the pistol. We've never once thought "That bastard had a pistol script and that's why i died. If this was bs_1 i'd of lived" The most absusive thing ever done was moomin using a _special pistol script but i found that more funny than harmful. I do like it though when everyone says 'omg bs_0', runs off to get a bunch of "abusive scripts" so they can win and then proceed to lose, or better yet start scriptusations midgame when they start to lose.

Pistol scripts, 3jump, leap bite, so called adrenaline management scripts never both me. I don't mind which of them you want to use, if it helps you then fine, if it doesn't then fine, the entire thing boils down to personal preference and i'm not one to tell players what they can and cannot do within the confines of the game. I don't say you can't use custom crosshairs, i don't blast people for having named minimaps. I run bs_0 on servers i have admin on because it gives players a choice, if you want to use scripts then go for it, if you don't then don't. If you don't want to use scripts then you're not effected and stop telling me to block them.

EDITX100

At the end of the day I'm failing to see how people cannot see that scripts really can turn the outcome of a game, as already explained by lump+tjosan.

I don't want someone that's using a script against me to win a situation when theres a chance that without a script, they wouldn't.

Also, where's the proof of people whining more about scripts than purple spiked models..?

That's the sort of comments that just takes everyones attention away from the core points from both sides of this argument.

I'm going to summarise the points that I feel the anti scripters are making. I'm interested to see what the pro scripters reply/think because that's the idea of a discussion yes?

• scripts CAN affect the outcome of a game
• whoever said "if you can do it ingame its ok", whitewalls ok too then? (if you do agree with us on this one please state as I don't believe it's a widely spread opinion)
• scripts can counter the time and effort spent by some individuals learning button sequences without them
• for those who still don't think they're an advantage, why can you not just play without them to end this whole discussion?
• we recognise mwheel as being very similar to 3jump, as they essentially perform the same job so neither side is really gaining. But this is a good example of if mwheel/scripts were diabled, the players that spend time learning how to do it would be rewarded with an advantage of those who previously scripted/mwheeled. Is that not fair?

Please just look at the points and provide sensible responses. Let's cut all the crap now because this thread has got far too long.

• scripts CAN affect the outcome of a game
  
  Yes they can, the player who is used to scripting is suddenly forced to play differently. Weird huh?
  
• whoever said "if you can do it ingame its ok", whitewalls ok too then? (if you do agree with us on this one please state as I don't believe it's a widely spread opinion)
  
  In-game or out-game, really in-game would be best. B/c it would be easier for newbies to learn.
  
• scripts can counter the time and effort spent by some individuals learning button sequences without them
  
  If you think "effort" is clicking my mouse bottum really fast, that's great. Becuase we all love mouse damages. Clicking fast is hardly a skill.
  
• for those who still don't think they're an advantage, why can you not just play without them to end this whole discussion?
  
  I only think they are an advantage, if you know how to use them. Then again a good player who is not used to using scripts, will play just as good.
  
• we recognise mwheel as being very similar to 3jump, as they essentially perform the same job so neither side is really gaining. But this is a good example of if mwheel/scripts were diabled, the players that spend time learning how to do it would be rewarded with an advantage of those who previously scripted/mwheeled. Is that not fair?
  We don't need mwheelblock or script block.

• 1. scripts CAN affect the outcome of a game
• 2. whoever said "if you can do it ingame its ok", whitewalls ok too then? (if you do agree with us on this one please state as I don't believe it's a widely spread opinion)
• 3. scripts can counter the time and effort spent by some individuals learning button sequences without them
• 4. for those who still don't think they're an advantage, why can you not just play without them to end this whole discussion?
• 5. we recognise mwheel as being very similar to 3jump, as they essentially perform the same job so neither side is really gaining. But this is a good example of if mwheel/scripts were diabled, the players that spend time learning how to do it would be rewarded with an advantage of those who previously scripted/mwheeled. Is that not fair?

• 1. The only case where I agree with this is when a pistol script is used. You can kill the alien because you shot fast enough, and would have died if you shot slower. In the other cases, I don't think they change the outcome of the game.
• 2. I do not agree completely with "if you can do it ingame its ok". But using commands and cvars to obtain an unintended behaviour (like gl_max_size, I assume you refered to that with whitewalls) is exploitive, and is not the same thing as using aliases (scripting). I think the point is that scripting is an intended part of the game (the 'alias' command wouldn't exist if it wasn't the case).
• 3. Like what ? Something like leap-bite ? Well, it can, but binding slot keys to easily acessible keys would do exactly the same thing to said individuals.
• 4. Scripts do indeed give an advantage. But I do not think that they give more advantages than replacing the crappy default crosshairs or rebinding key for a maximal convenience (except for pistol scripts). "Why can you not just play without them to end this whole discussion?" Well, I can play without them. I adapted to people forcing me to play their way. The only scripts I use (that are blocked by BS) are : duckjump script as marine and +3jump as alien. So playing on blockscripts servers is no problem for me, except that I'm not used to use the mousewheel to bhop (the only other things I use are sctrictly utlity scripts : toggle voice chat on/off, toggle hud saytext on/off, adjusting the ingame volume with UPARROW and DOWNARROW, calling for meds/ammo/healing with the corresponding impulse. I don't think these scripts affect gameplay at all. Do you ?). To come to "Why can you not just play without them to end this whole discussion?", I could say the same thing about something else : Would you mind if people were forcing you to use the default crosshairs because they think changing them is unfair ? Or would you like if there was a server option to force players to use no crosshair "because it takes more skill to aim without crosshair" ?
• 5. Yes they are very similar, and bs prohibits one of those. Now, if both of those were to be blocked, I think this wouldn't be really fair for everyone. Is it really the way you want the game to be going ? This would be very detrimental to gameplay, for the following reasons : It would require a very steady framerate and a good and stable network connection for a player to be able to perform jumps successfully. In the end, it really comes down to what you consider a skill. So to be skilled in a video game you should get a high and constant framerate and a nice connection ? I reckon these 2 aspects are already important but forcing players to jump with a single key would only make the requirements harder to meet and punish players who can't afford upgrading hardware/net connection. It's no longer "who can bhop faster", it's "who's got the best reflexes, hardware and network connection" now.

You can add all sorts of restrictions to the game, but after all it all comes down to what you consider a skill. I would clearly not be 'skilled' enough if the mousewheel came to be blocked, because it would be impossible for me to bhop with a fps fluctuating between 100 and 40/50 in combat situations.

* scripts CAN affect the outcome of a game

I'll have to disagree with that and here's why. I'm sure most people have heard of `God, he simple states he doesnt use scripts but uses the mousewheel. Now if you watch him play for just a simple alien/marine round he'll basically dominate the entire other team. But here's the cookie part he isnt using a script!

Although he doesn't dominate when I'm fading and hes lerking because I steal all his kills har har har har har

I like how a hypothetical question about using scripts in leagues turns into a heated debate about the legalities of scripting (although I should have seen this coming).

It is pretty clear to me that we are all just going around in circles, the point of this thread lost (start up a new discussion regarding legalities of scripts... if you dare go that route be prepared for heavy moderation in that thread) so it pains me to cut this thread short (er, well, not really) but most of us are just repeating ourselves which angers jmsbnd007... and none of us want to anger bond into losing his posting rights, correct?!?

This is now a closed discussion.