***EDIT*** - go check last post for a summary if you don't want to read all the junk below.

After reading enough redemption forums, these were the main points that redemption is trying to do:

- deny marines RpK
- Allow aliens to 'come back' without taking up a respawn point.

So here's an alternative for redemption. It is BY NO MEANS polished and well-balanced yet... so bare with me.

We all know how iffy redemption works: sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. CO is a different matter (cara/redeem), but I won't get to that. With that in mind, here's the proposal:

Instead of making redemption bring you back to the hive, what redemption does is bring you back after you die. This means that the selected alien will die and will respawn as its evolved form. For instance, an onos dies and therefore spawns back as an onos. To avoid an endless loop of respawning back as selected lifeform, the upgrades will not follow after death (otherwise, a fade with redeem would be a fade forever, unless he/she F4).

Furthermore, this upgrade denies marines from getting a RpK point. This way, this upgrade is viable for skulks to avoid giving marines res and allowing some of the 1.04 skulks back in for rushing without worrying of giving advantage to marines.

There's a lot of cons involved (such as losing original redeem), but overall I think this'll boost redemption upgrade. I also think it won't boost aliens to gain an insanely amount of advantage. In the early game, this means skulks have a chance of either of getting cara to stand against marines, or rush with redeem to deny res and hope to take someone out. In midgame, fades with redeem are weaker, but if one dies with redeem, it gives the aliens a chance to stay in the fight (because losing fades early usually associate with losing the game). This is the biggest factor of change for this upgrade... but even then, generally fade without regen/cara makes them pretty weak. It's a tradeoff. For late games, redeem shouldn't matter because of the HMGs. Redeeming onos might be able to pull off one hit before they 'die' and redeem... unlike the current version when they disappear back to the hive after looking at MS.

As for respawning... I haven't thought of a good way to handle it. The easiest is to put it back into the respawn queue, but that could get really ugly. Another way is to have a seperate respawn queue. Or use CO code and respawn anyone flagged with the redeem upgrade.

** ADDED **
Base price of redemption is free for skulk/gorges, but after each death, this price is raised by 5 res, with the max of the lifeform's cost. (30 for lerks, 50 for fades, 0 for skulks). For higher lifeforms, this base cost is 5.

When spawning, you start off as an egg, which evolve to the previous lifeform: timer could be dependent on defence chambers, lifeform, or just the same time it takes to evolve to that form normally.

** ALTERNATIVE **
Rather than redeem the lifeform back, you redeem resources back. Percentage of how much is subject to change, and not decided.

**EDIT**
These are other suggestions that I've already considered and may add:
- Adding res requirement for redemption. It costs res to get redeem by the hive... consider it a payment upfront. Unfortunately, now that upgrades are free, there is NO incentive using redemption other than skulk...
- Cooldown timer. It's been mention in several other threads, so why not mention it here?
- Spawn with lower health. I've also tossed this idea for several days. The hive grabbed your body back from the dead, and can't heal you completely upfront. So you spawn with a lower hp/armor and slowly you gain that back... possibly kills/timer.
*** end edit ***



For those who don't want to read the above, let me sum it up again:
- Redeem changed to redeeming a lifeform AFTER they die. This means a fade spawns back as a fade.
- Upgrades do NOT carry over, allowing flexibility for aliens.
- Marines do not get RpK from alien with redemption.
- Respawning problem is still being thought out.
- When respawning, the player starts off as an egg and evolves for a certain time before going back to the current lifeform. Time to evolve is still being decided (and really for all intent and purposes, it's not that important to go into this kind of detail).
- Redemption base cost is free for skulks/gorges and 5 for fades/lerks/onos, but with +5 res after each death, with the max price as the lifeform's cost. This makes each consecutive death more expensive to get redemption. (Note that +5 value can be changed)
- Redemption maybe on a timer.
- Redemption may spawn player with lower health which takes time to regain to max.

There's an alternative method of working out redemption:
- When a lifeform dies, the player redeems back some of the resources related to the cost of its lifeform. Redemption does NOT bring the player back to the hive, nor does it try to save the player in any way. (value of how much resource they get back is not determined, and still being discussed)

Opinions? Hate it? Like it? Write it down, but please keep it civil.

- Theslan

I wub it. It's a great idea. Just give them highest priority to spawn, as in, instantaneous.

Unmfortunately, higher life forms cost a lot of res, and sometimes take a lot of marine effort to kill. This redemption would mean that without marines in the hive, it would be impossible to kill an Onos or fade at all.

Normally, when you kill an Onos, you know you set the aliens back by at least 75 res + time, but with this, an Onos can come back at full health for the cost of his upgrades. If an Onos can kill ONE marine each death, he will pay for his own redemption upgrade.

How about having it so that you respawn as your old life-form if you can automatically pay half the normal res cost available? and/or have you respawn as an egg, and have to wait the normal gestate time to get back into action?

So to clarify (because I'm probably not understanding it correctly), a fade gets redemption and is guarenteed to never die, regardless of how many times he's "killed" he'll always spawn a fade and just have to select his upgrades??

If so, uhh little overpowering don't you think?
You get fade at 4 minutes adn you are guarenteed to have a fade for the rest of the game?

Screw a "little" overpowering. This is the most overpowering suggestion I've *ever* heard besides the nuke.

I think it's a nice suggestion, it makes it important for the marines to play out their quite of early power, especialy with an eye on the ressources.

The only backdraw I dislike is, it will lock the DC first strategy in stone...

I agree with Zunni a bit, this is VERY overpowering. Just make this co only and we'll work out something else for ns?

To Church and Zunni,

Yes, that is a "little" overpowering. It's one of the reasons why I did not post this suggestion several days earlier.

(Clarify) I was thinking of games around 10 vs 10, which would mean marines have more firepower against aliens. So scaling down to 6 vs 6, I can see how overpowering this is. But keep in mind with the current marine tech, a group of marines with several shotties can easily take on an ungraded fade. This redeem fade has to go back to heal and cannot take as much damage as cara fade... or he could die, wait to respawn back at the hive and have to get his upgrades, if he has res for redemption. (read below) For late games, redemption is only good for cannon fodder, since HMG can tear ungraded fades/onos apart. At the moment, I'm not sure whether the redeem person gets full life or reduced health: that can be discussed.

To YolkFolk,
I missed that train of thought somewhere. Yes, I meant to add in '1/2 cost' res for redemption, in order to balance out fades from respawning again and again. I will edit the first post to reflect it.

I would also note that this is a working idea, and by no means a finished product. I posted it here rather than wait several days in order to get some ideas on how this could possibly work. My head is already running out of ideas how to curb this from making aliens extremely powerful.

RobB:
I didn't think of that, good point. I hate to introduce something that'll set the chambers back to DMS strat only again.

How about, everytime you are redeemed, the price goes up. This price never resets until the next round starts.

Base price of redemption is 2 res. You go Fade and get redemption and die. you respawn at your hive as a fade again, but this time, redemption costs you 4 res to get, next death, it costs you 6 res, and so on. After so many deaths, redemption would get way too expensive to rely on. Your fade can't afford redemption on his next death and has to grab cara or regen, which are still free. The price of redemption will always scale back to the price of your current lifeform. If you died and redeemed 20 times, the price of redemption would be 40 res. But if you are a Lerk, the price of redemption is maxed at 30 for example. but if you are a fade, the max is 50, onos is 75

Redemption cost is constant for all lifeforms, but more worthwhile for more expensive lifeforms. Useless for a skulk, besides denying marines RFK

how about, redemption gives back some of your res after you die (not all) but it wont save your life or lifeform. So an onos with redemption would get a hefty chunk of res back when it dies, allowing it to re-onos sooner than it otherwise could have. An early lerk could go off and die, and get 15-20 res back with redemption.

But you'd still have to take time re-evolving and getting upgrades back

GoldenShadow:

Great suggestion, too bad I didn't thought of it myself. I wouldn't increase the value up by 2 though... but rather by 5, with the first one free. That way, redemption will work cheaply several times before it becomes expensive and 'killing a few marines' can't offset it. This'll help the overpower issue that Zunni and Church points out.


Monopolowa:

I see where you're going, but I don't think it's a good idea. Remember that by choosing redemption, that onos/fade doesn't get that needed regen/cara upgrade. They won't be able to withstand or kill as much against marines (unless they went onos/fade really early against low-tech marines). This idea seems too... passive to me.

Here's my suggestion on the original idea :

What is suggested : You redeem after you die, but keep the lifeform. You're added up to the respawn queue.

What I suggest : You redeem the RESOURCES you wasted when you respawn as a skulk.

Say you're an onos with 10 res. You take redeem. You die. You wait the normal time. Then you respawn as a skulk with 85 res. You can go back Onos (which take time gestating), and then you can pick your upgrades again.

Redempt saved the Kharaa the precious res he wanted to keep. A whole team with Redempt getting killed couldn't get back in the action as fast.

What more, the fact that you regain your lost res would add to the diversability of the aliens, since you could simply go gorge and put up much needed chambers, or anything else.

Also, I would suggest that those dying wait about double or 1.5 the current time of waiting in the spawn queue. In NS, time is money, and dead players are equal to less firepower.

Summary

- You spawn back with the "Resworth" you had when you died.
- You wait much longer in the spawn queue.
- Enable the Kharaa to adapt even more to the current situation.

What do you think of this?

-edit-
I just read monopolowa's post, which for some reason I skipped over when reading the first time. I still think that it should be better that you keep the "resworth" you had, since the goal of redeem is also that you keep the same firepower once you're back in action.

Added thoughts from my post on page 3

ya know the nuke isnt that bad of a idea, i would what only make aliens wip fro a second and it would be any alien in said clicks they would have time to to take it down and so on so thats not to over powered, maybe it is for killing hte hive, but i dotn think it would be if it just hurt aliens

but this idea, this is just controled chaos, you cant harness controled chaos

in my opinion i like redemption just the way it is, i wouldnt change it for the world
it has a little bit of radum anrchey in volved, and that suits my chaotic evil nature to a T

After further consideration of your idea, Tanathos, I'm finding myself liking it more and more. It seems reminiscent of how Combat handles respawning players after each death, but that doesn't tarnish it much. While stating that you would earn back all the res you had previously spent on your current lifeform seems overpowering, it makes sense as it provides little drawback for choosing Redemption (the evident one being that you can't select any other Defensive trait).

Two questions, however:
1) What would happen if the resources you earned back from Redemption put you above 100? Would it simply be negated, or distributed as overflow, or…? I'm guessing the latter, but still.
2) What would the Combat equivalent of the upgrade? Would we simply keep the current model?

Here's what I think would be best:

- Must pay x% of lifeform cost at time of death, if unable, will die as normal (25-50%?, could change with # active def chambers, as the gestate time does)
- Entered into standard spawn queue
- Spawn as egg, must wait x% normal gestation time for species (to "rebuild" its body, x in relation to number of defense chambers active, 1=100%, 2=75%. 3=50%)
- When hatched, emerges as the same lifeform, but free of upgrades
- To re-evolve redemption, cost increased by 10% of lifeform cost each death, up to maximum of the full cost

Ok, I like this idea, especially those that added the respawn as an egg type-deal. You would waste a minute or so gestating and that would take time away from your killing (a kind of balance.) That being said ...

This redemption should never be free for lerks, fades, and onos. It should start at five res ... why? Because this is literally a "free-life" the killed player would not lose their res (res used to gestate to x lifeform,) the marines don't get RFK. Only thing that really happens is the marines get to have one minute of that being not being x lifeform and the player himself has to wait around a little bit.

Being a free upgrade (initially) makes this upgrade way too good for higher lifeforms. EVERYBODY would get it unless the marines were right under the hive. There has to be a drawback besides having to re-gestate.

Also, this shouldn't apply to the gorge and the skulk ... skulks would always get this and deny the marine team a horrible amount of res from redeeming plus they get to use riskier tactics with no risks involved. Gorge should have the old way because Gorges benefit the most from the old way. Early game, a rambo will come by and pester a lone-gorge. With a lvl0-2 LMG the gorge nearly always redeems. Carapace isn't going to save the fatty that often because +50 armor is just five more bullets and he is easy to hit.

ANYWAYS ... shouldn't apply to gorge because he redeems a lot versus lmgs currently and this would punish him from using his best upgrade.

I think skulk needs to be 1 res commulative to 5 res max. because if the max to get redem for skulks is 0 res then they can go around and kill forever (as you said with your fade example) so a max of 5 with commulative of 1 per "death".

you shouldn't get back the complete res amount you put in to that lifeform, because
a) you'll be building up res from rfk as well as normal resflow, and
b) there should still be some penalty for dying

basically, even with partial (say half) res returned, most fades could still go straight back to fade again

oh, if this redemption is used, rfk should also be eliminated for aliens with this upgrade (this makes it useful for lower lifeforms, while getting partial res back is good for higher lifeforms)

So skulks could go redemption right off the bat and be the cannon fodder they were always meant to be...without giving the marines free upgrades as well





as an aside...I don't know how this would work in combat, since denying exp 100% would be insanely overpowering while anything else would do...nothing

Even with the upgrade costing half the lifeform, it is still WAY too good for the Fade. It is already ridiculous now to kill Fades. The amount of work marines have ot put in to kill one is enormous, and in return the aliens lose out on a Fade...usually for quite a few minutes!

This upgrade is so good EVERY SINGLE FADE WOULD GET IT! There is *almost* no reason to get anything else. In return for *slightly* more downtime (I have to go back to the hive and heal instead of having regen, yay) you are, in effect, cutting the price of the Fade IN HALF! NO NO NO!

I can't in good conscience support this idea at all. Now, if redemption only gave you back 20% of the res, then I can see it as being fair, but not 50%.

Ok, there seems to be two different ideas that's going on here, one that has redemption as a cumulative cost with each consecutive death spawning back as the current lifeform), and the other with redemption as a means to gain back some res but spawning back as a skulk.

ReK, NukeAJS:
Agreed, there should be some downtime for evolving back to whatever lifeform, though rather than tie it to D chambers, I would just make them have to take the whole time again.
The base cost of redemption I agree with: there needs to be some sort of res put into redemption the first time before it starts increasing.

fyremp3:
The idea for redemption for skulks is to deny marine RpK. It's deciding whether to stay on field longer (regen), or withstand a couple more bullets (cara). By making it cost one to max 5 basically removes the incentive for people who want to just rush as skulks without giving marines RpK.

monopolowa, tanathos, and Al Kaholic:
I don't know, it seems to me too much of a safety net to redeem some of the resources back. I'll add it in though.

church:
Well, you and zunni voice negative criticism here, which I don't mind. As a whole, you basically say that fade benefits this most, making this the ideal upgrade to get everytime since it is really hard to kill fades in the first place (with regen/cara). I haven't heard much against skulks/lerks/onos probably because those lifeforms don't kill as much... so why not change redemption to work a specific way for fades, concerning they're the main killers against marines? Using either redemption formula (getting res back/getting lifeform back), how would you make it more balance/fair against fades?

Editting first post to reflect ideas introduced from posts.

An Onos without regeneration does suffer for a larger down time than otherwise, however, they can still stay from a semi-safe distance and stomp all day, helping his buddies a lot. My main concern is how it will allow certain classes that aren't suypposed to be suicide units (i.e Fades and Onos) become semi-suicidal units because they know that even if they die, they can be back really, really soon. Just having a unit that is able to stomp a lot, even if that unit doesn't come in and devour (which would put it in danger) is alreayd a big help. And if the marines kill it, big whoop the Onos is back in about a minute.

Skulks don't really need redemption, and I personally think r4k needs to be removed completely from both sides anyways. Without r4k, skulks won't be afraid to use themselves in a suicial manner for the greater good of the team, and wouldn't need any redemption to prevent the marines from getting res.

Gorges do benefit somewhat from redemption, although I'd pick the current redemption over the proposed redemption when it comes to gorges.

I've never seen a lerk take redemption...

I;m glad people are looking at this upgrade, but really, can't we just replace it something else that's not so problematic? Redemption is always too strong or too weak. hell, give an Onos carapace and suddenly the redempt Onos is invincible in combat! Without carapace, it's almost a waste of a point. I'm not sure what to replace with at the moment, however, with your current idea of giving back res to the alien, it has to be a low % like 20 or 30%, especially for those higher lifeforms.

there are definitely flaws in the idea. what if a skulk takes redempt? how would it benifit him? there is still a lot of discussion in this thread, so perhaps a reasonable conclusion may come out from the idea. but in the meantime, it gets a no from me since there are many better redempt ideas out there. but this one is certainly interesting.

edit: okay i think i get the skulk part now. so marines don't get rfk when the skulk dies?

Agreed, Church, r4k really needs to go. Unfortunately, there's an equal amount of people who like it enough that I doubt it's going to go away.

Yeah, this was an attempted to fix some holes by me while trying to curb redemption upgrade to do something:
- allow skulk rushing (no rpk, but with literally ungraded skulks)
- In CO: allow lifeform with redemption to spawn back as current lifeform and avoid GL spamming and spawn camping (similar to early combat), but trying to avoid the onos train/alien train symdrone.
- Allow newer players SOME sort of change to practice: this upgrade would be ideal for players to practice high lifeforms in NS. CO fades and CO onos (even CO lerks) are a lot different than NS, even as much as the devs try to keep them the same.

I don't know what I can do to fix the problem of making higher units not semi-suicidal, even though the current redemption works somewhat that way. Perhaps someone may suggest something reasonable that neither of us thought of using some of these ideas.

Paras!te:
The main use for redemption as skulk is to deny marine RpK. Otherwise, the skulk is basically the same as an unupgraded skulk.

Of course my idea about 5 res max may be a bit extreme, but isn't 0 all the same?
also, the first time you die is free, then it costs 1 res to get the upgrade again, then second death, 2 res, so it's not like you're losing res, imagine if you get 2 rines on that first death, you gain 3 res, then another 1 the second time, that's still 3 res profit.

but lets think about the previously submitted idea.
0 res for an upgrade that will deny RpK 100% of the time?

ok, for higher lifeforms, compare my version of the idea (get half res back when you die) to the current redempt

when it works, current redempt
- denies RFK
- saves respawn/re-evolve time, costs heal time (short since you're at the hive already)
- saves re-evolve res

and if it doesnt work, you get nothing. Current redempt is a gamble

My version
- denies RFK
- takes time to re-evolve/respawn
- saves partial re-evolve res

My version is still weaker than the current version because you need to re-evolve again...and partial res (say 50% for discussion purposes) is just fine, because when higher lifeforms have some skill they usually stay alive long enough to earn whatever rfk is still needed for the next time they need to reevolve. Higher lifeforms still need to be careful not to die, rather than rushing in and hoping redemption will work, because the time to evolve and run back to where the action is can be costly.

Finally, no rfk (esp. for skulks) opens up a new mentality and play style that has been hurt with the addition of RFK. I want to see skulks that dont care if they die. Their only purpose is to hurl themselves blindly at the enemy.

And I don't think this would unbalance the chambers either. One hive D-chamber skulks still have to deal with the spawn queue so they wouldn't necessarily overwhelm the marines outside their hive, and 2 hive redempt skulks would still need higher lifeforms to deal with the upgraded marines, as they'd still be easy to kill. As a skulk, youd have a choice of taking several upgrades, two that increase your chances of getting to the marine and getting your kill (but have rfk as a penalty), and one that lowers the penalty for dying, but also lowers your chances of being an effective skulk

fyremp3:
I see where you're going with this, and let's just say for number sake the max amount is 2 for a reasonable amount. But consider this: why spend 1 res (or 2) on an upgrade when you can get cara and kill more? Or regen to stay alive and on the field more often? Getting redemption is like playing unupgraded skulks with the benefit of no RpK for marines.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason why there should be a 1 res (or 2) pricetag for getting this upgrade. It will just make aliens not grab this upgrade at all; they would rather get regen/cara.

I think monopolowa is on the right track. If you die you just go back to the hive as a skulk instead of redeeming, meaning that redemption is there to prevent you from taking time to respawn and prevent marines from getting rfk, not to prevent you from dieing. But, you keep a percentage of the res required for that lifeform. It would probably work best to make that percentage determined based on lifeform type and what level the ability is at. That way there IS a price for dieing but the ability also has enough benefit to be useful.

The numbers obviously need a bit of tweaking but it seems like it would be a whole lot better the the current redemption.

na i dont like none of these kill them off then add them to the spawn que ideas

i would rather leave it as it is, its not ment to work all the time, if it did then every one would take it, but no one would if it keep them out of combat for to long,

IMO leave it as it is, if ya wanna go in the que direction

i dont know so maybe i shall sujest a cool quirk for it i thought up, not saying its a good one, i dont already agree with it, but ill sujest it anyway

Adressing issues to the idea I supplied

Resources accumulation
I don't see how this is a problem, since everytime you get saved by Redemption in the current version, you do the same thing by saving your skin. By surviving as a 75 resworth Onos, you saved yourself 75 res. The only new thing my idea bring is that this res can be applicable into other things since you start back as a skulk.

Not enough disadvantages (time not enough)
I still think time is the biggest drawback you can get while playing, especially in emergency situations when everyone needs to be rushing to some area in the map, but you can't : you're stuck waiting to respawn, and then you STILL need to morph back.

Time is one of the best variable to tweak. You can change it so that the wait time is long enough so that people will be scared to die and wait.. but still short enough to not make redemption the last upgrade on your list.

The time needed to be lifeform dependant...and directly related to how freaking hard it is to kill that lifeform.

Another feature to tweak with would be a timelimit before the redeem will work again.

So here as a summary :

Pros:
o Redeem always work.
o You respawn as a skulk with the resworth that you had.

Cons:
o It takes a long time to respawn
AND/OR
o Time to respawn is dependant on previous lifeform
AND/OR
o Timelimit before redeem works again.

Well, it seems like redemption discussion is pretty much done here. To sum it up, it seems that my thread got hijacked and started discussing recovering resources from redemption, rather than recovering the lifeform. Still, both ideas are decent in my opinion, with +'s and -'s. It's just whether the numbers would make this upgrade insanely powerful or extremely weak... which has been a major problem for this upgrade even in the current condition.

To sum it up, here are the two suggestions again:

Redemption to recover LIFEFORM:
- When killed, marine does NOT get RPK.
- When dead, the alien spawns back with the current lifeform (fade dies, respawns fade again)
- Redemption upgrade is free for gorges/skulk, with +1 for each consecutive death for skulk to max +3-5. Lerks/onos/fade have to pay 5-10 originally, with a +5-10 for each consecutive death to max of that lifeform's cost (numbers, of course, are subject to change)
- Upgrades do NOT carry over after death.
- There are talks about spawning as an egg to increase time delay before alien is back on the field (with the exception of skulks).
- Spawning dilemma has not been resolved (ie, rushing skulks, whole team dies, waits to spawn 1 by 1- how does taking redemption affects this?)

Redemption to recover RESOURCES:
- Marines do not get RPK from redemption alien.
- When dead, alien spawns back as skulk.
- Alien with redemption gets 30%-100% of the lifeform's cost back. (lerk dies, 30 res comes back)
- This 'recovered' resource could be distributed to everyone, or just solely for the individual alien.

Note that both redemption does not redeem the alien back to the hive at anytime.

I think it's good time to lock this thread; the discussions here were good to generates ideas.

why lock if the ideas were decent? just move it to "future versions" forum, where people can read it and still input their $.02, rather than lock and have it hidden where nobody can find it * ...


I dont like the lifeform recovery option, TBH...it's either too powerful (since anyone who takes it will save up loads of rfk, way more than they spend while re-taking the upgrade), or very weak (alien stays out of the action for way too long, respawning as an egg makes it vulnerable since the player can't find a safe spot)...this redemption would be too powerful when the aliens are attacking, and too weak while defending

the res recovery option
rfk would need to be blocked (thought we discussed this) so it's not useless for skulks




* wants sooo much to insert crack about mchief here

Move it somewhere, sure, but pretty much there's not too much discussion on it now. I just don't want this topic to fall away to the point where Zunni locks it because it's old and nobody discusses it anymore.

Editing previous post to reflect RPK for res-recovery option.