These aren’t ‘new’ concerns, so please don’t consider this related to the most recent build. I would also like to add that while I consider this a balance issue; it’s a RELATIVE balance issue and not a FUNCTIONAL balance issue. That means even though you may consider the game balanced ‘by the numbers’ now, it has nothing to do with what I will be discussing in principle. Even if you believe the game favors the aliens, please put those thoughts aside. Overall this is a ‘concept’ discussion, but I put it in I&S since it includes suggestions. However, try to treat it as a concept more than a suggestion please. With that said…

One of the things that has always concerned me, is the relative imbalance in the continuity of marine team strength relative to key control points.

In looking at how the game is laid out, we have 4 key control points on the map; the active command chair, and 3 hives. The more of these points your team holds, the more likely your team is to win the game. Simple, right? When the game starts each team is given one of these key points, after which they try to capture the other remaining points, as well as take points held by the opposing team. A team MUST hold one point to stay in the game.

The disparity arises with the alien team. While the alien team is given one of these points, it is penalized should it LOSE any of its points. So an alien team that takes a second hive will gain strength, and that same alien team that loses a second hive will lose strength. Overall, the relative strength of the alien team is very much tied to the number of key points (hives) held. While this may seem logical, there is a flaw.

The marine team can take and hold these very same points, and doing so will prevent the alien team from gaining strength. However, if the marine team loses one of these points, there is no consequence for the loss of that point. While losing a hive will weaken the alien team, losing a hive doesn’t weaken the marine team.

(As a secondary objective, there are a number of resource nodes on the map, varying from 7-10 depending on the map in particular, and those nodes are also of importance to both teams. Again, the alien team is at a disadvantage with respect to resources and resource nodes since their team shares resource flow.. However, it really comes down to the fact that aliens have to change to a ‘builder’ class in order to drop resource nodes. When one considers that every second counts when resources are concerned, the alien ‘builder’ may not have the resources required when a resource node needs to be built, even though other team members do. What's more, with the advent of R4K, the marine team now is less dependant on resource nodes than they really should be.)

Nevertheless, the biggest disparity here is that there is NOTHING that can weaken the marine team in a permanent or significant manner with respect to map control. As the game progresses, the marines can research weapon and armor upgrades. While the arms labs brings the most basic (and significant) enhancements to marine play, they are not subject to loss. Sure an alien team can take out the arms lab and set the marines back momentarily, but all it takes is a bit of res and a quick build to have all of those upgrades back in place. The marine team will continually grow in strength, regardless of how much territory (or control points) they hold at any given time.

This disparity is one of the fundamental flaws that gives marines an inherent advantage in the game. This is most evident when the alien team is trying to ‘finish off’ the marine team. In almost every case, this is usually a long and arduous process, even if the aliens control the entire map. With R4K and one res node, the marine team can continue to provide advanced tech to their players. The arms lab, since it is not affected by marine territory losses, remains at full strength even though the marine team has effectively lost the game. With aliens this is not the case, and one hive aliens (after they have lost their other hives and marines have advanced tech) are quite easy to finish off by comparison.

With the above in mind, I would like to see NS become a more ‘territory’ oriented game, with incentives for BOTH teams to control key points on the map. The incentive for aliens is already there, so what would the incentive for marines be?

The most logical and obvious choice would be arms lab upgrades.

For marines to achieve and maintain arms lab upgrades, they must hold key points (hives) on the map. The weapon/armor 1 upgrades would be available by simply having an active command chair. The weapon/armor 2 upgrades would require the marines to secure one hive. The weapon/armor 3 upgrades would require the marines to secure two hives. For sake of discussion, ‘secure’ would mean having a functioning TF in the hive room near the point where the hive normally resides. So in the ‘refinery’ hive on Bast the marines would have to be at the hive end of the room, they wouldn’t be able to consider the hive secure by camping at the other end.

Once a hive is ‘secure’ the marine upgrade at the arms lab would be available to research if they could afford it. Should marines lose a hive, they would lose access to those upgrades. Gain the hive back and they can re-research those upgrades. This would mirror the same consequence that aliens have by losing a hive. While losing the Arms lab itself would not require re-researching of upgrades, marines would have to research the upgrades again if they lost a hive. Failure should have a price, and I think that this would make marines that much more particular in this respect.

In summary:

no hives=maximum LVL1 arms lab upgrades
1 hive = maximum LVL 2 arms lab upgrades
2 hives= maximum LVL 3 arms lab upgrades

What will this mean?

If adopted, the marine team would have to hold hives in order to upgrade beyond level 1 ammo/armor. If they hold one hive then they would have access to level 2, and if they hold another hive then they would have access to level 3, which should assure them the strength to take the last hive, since the ‘one-hive aliens’ should be no match for level 3 weapons. Of course the marines don’t HAVE to take hives to win the game, but it certainly would/could/should have an impact.

On the flip-side, it would also allow for a faster end-game progression when aliens are winning. In the same way aliens get weaker when they lose a hive, with each hive they take the aliens would get stronger, and the marines would get weaker. In a 3-hive situation you would only be facing marines with a maximum level 1 ammo/armor. This makes sense from a balance perspective since an alien team that controls all three hives SHOULD be the stronger team, just like a marine team that controls their spawn/2 hives SHOULD be the stronger team.

This is even more important when you consider that R4K has somewhat diminished the need for marines to be as concerned with res nodes as they used to be. (especially in larger games) Often they can allow aliens to expand at will and just bank in the res from R4K while they tech up. All the while not having taken any territory at all. I honestly don’t think we should reward this.

In conclusion, I think moving to a more ‘map control’ oriented style of play would encourage marines to go for hive locations for the intent of achieving upgrades, and not just to deny the aliens a hive. This would make the importance of hives that much greater for both teams, and likely lead to more linear games that have a steady progression of strength going to the team that controls hives.

As a sub-note, it is quite possible that this suggestion may cause balance issues, and if so, we can address any issues that may arise as they arise. If this would weaken marines then we can buff them in other ways. In other words, if your sole objection is that “it would make the game unbalanced” then please don’t reply. Game balance can always be tweaked, this would be no different.

Regards,

Savant

I don't understand... The two teams are massively different because they are SUPPOSED to be. The easiet way to balance NS long ago would have been to just make the teams clones of eachother. Giant structural and gameplay differences are not something we should be attempting to destroy, we want to look for a way to preserve them while STILL achiving balance between the teams.

The demand for territory to be maintained by marines is fullfilled by the need for res, and the relitive strengh of the alien team if territory is not kept from them (hive one aliens are ALOT easier to kill then hive 2 aliens, any way you cut it)

Try as I might I can't see a good reason why the marine upgrades need to be tied to what locations they have on the map. I would not be opposed to other marine benifits being introduced with added map control, but I don't think upgrades make sense as a factor being tied to the ammount of map area the marine team possesses.

You're missing my point though... Yes I do agree that the teams are (and are supposed to be) different, but they have the same GOAL. Both teams, as different as they are, seek to have and to hold onto as many of the control points as possible. (control points being marine start and hive locations)

There has to be a common goal within which the conflict takes place or there would be no conflict.

Hives have been continually losing importance as the builds have passed. First there was the change to allow aliens to upgrade classes regardless of how many hives they help. Then there was the change to disallow building more than one hive at any given time. Now you have R4K, which again diminishes the need for marines to take hives. I could go on...

While the teams are different, the manner in which both teams gain/lose strength should be RELATIVELY similar. IE, an alien team that holds 3 hives SHOULD be stronger than a marine team that holds none. A marine team that holds their start and 2 hives SHOULD be stronger than an alien team that has one hive. Hives are the focal point for the game, and it only makes sense (to me) that both teams should have rewards and consequences for taking/losing them.

I think making a change like this would make the game easier to balance because it would allow for a team's relative strength to vary in opposition to the opposing team's strength. As team A gets stronger team B gets weaker and vice versa.

At present the marine team is never weakened until the very last moment of play, yet the alien team can be weakened throughout the game. This disparity leads to inherent balance issues, and only makes balancing the game that much harder.

Regards,

Savant

i like the idea alot, but mabey instead of hives held it could be rts, idk i like it but something is nagging at me which i cant seem to comprehend now so i will post back.

edit with marines haveing low starting res it would be hard for them to hold a point at the beggining let alone 2. With that said the aliens could have 2 skulks hold the 2 other hives while 1 -2 gorge harry rines (now i am not trying to make a strat) and the first 4 could lame the hives up. It just seems that rines would be hard presses to gain control, if the aliens knew they needed said hive to upgrade.

The marine team is never weakened until the last moment of play, because they don't put any of thier upgrade structures anywhere but MS. To be fair acctually, it isn't that they are not weakend until the last moment of play, it is just that they don't often end up fighting a defencesive battle over something that can desicively weaken them UNTIL the last moment of play. The aliens have the upper hand in this fight, they are faster, stronger and have more coordination tools. The whole point is the marines come in with the lower hand, and from that they need to expand and lock down enough choke points that the more powerful alien threat doesn't get to be realized. The aliens need at least 2 hive locations to give them the momentum to really win the game, and the marines need to prevent the aliens from getting them. If any part of the marines tech tree is tied more to outer location then res already does, the aliens easily win the game, because when aliens work together, they can fortify any location to the point that it is untakable LONG before the marines have the ability to do so. An alien lockdown is preformed MUCH easier then a marine lock down.

No, no, no, and no. Forcing the marine team to turret farm captured hives? Do you like long drawn-out games where the marines just sit on a bunch of turrets and refuse to force the attack, but the aliens can do absolutely nothing. Absolutely not; turret farming two hives is a horrible strategy. Sure it's an excellent strategy gameplay-wise, but it completely sucks the fun out of the game. Forcing the marines to use MORE static defenses is exactly the opposite direction that most of the community would like to see this game take.

Worst...idea...ever...

This forces marines to always go with only one set path, namely locking down hives, unless htey plan on killing the first hive within the first 5 minutes of the game.

Look, here is how marines are SEVERELY weakened by losing hives: The lose RES CONTROL! Once Fades show up, skulks are free to chomp resource towers. Once the marines lose a hive, they have 2 minute to reclaim it, and then they are SEVERELY weakened by TWO HIVE ALIENS THAT DESTROY EVERYTHING! bilbebomb, meta, you name it. Itis impossible to hold RTs on most map after aliens get two hives (ns_nothing being a notable exception, and only if they didn't start in cargo). Having to deal with overpowering aliens (and frankly, at hive2, the DEFAULT UNIT THAT IS FREE is already stronger than the light marine with an lmg. GG leap). NS has ALWAYS been about the hives. If the commander fails to prevent the aliens from getting a hive, he LOSES. It's that way 99% of the time. You do NOT need to make it harder for marines to win.

I also have to disagree with this idea.
Remember that marines can always build another command chair. So saying that they have only one control point really isn't true. The marines have upgrades, the aliens have control points. The two things are vastly different.

If you want to emphasize territorial control for marines, just drop RfK.

If you want to emphasize set-backs for marines, simply strengthen the tech tree. If something earlier in the tree is eliminated, all benefits that stem from it are eliminated until it's rebuilt and researched.

However, both of these elements serve to increase the RTS side of NS which is something that I fear the devs are becoming more reluctant to do.

Marines are horribly punished for losing a hive EXACTLY because the aliens will gain acess to new abilities/upgrades.

Think of it like this ... a chess player has a rook, a bishop, and a queen. The opposing player has two knights, and a two pawns. All territory aside ... the player with no pawns (the marines) have a HUGE disadvantage from this point in the game on. He can only keep his one queen. The player with two pawns has a massive possible advantage because he could possibly get two queens.

If the player with two knights loses his pawns (the other hives) he can not win the game unless by some really odd tactics (cornering the king.) If the player with the queen, bishop, and rook takes the pawns he is nearly assured a victory.

This isn't a disadvantage. This is called strategy. These players would play very different because they have to play different. The q/r/b player would have to prevent the pawns from reaching his end of the board and the player with two pawns would have to get those pawns to the end of the board.

If the player with the pawns gets even one queen. The game shifts in his direction greatly since a queen and two knights is better (generally speaking but not all situations.) than a bishop/rook/queen.

This, my friend is natural selection, the marines must stop the alien expansion to win. The aliens must expand to win. The marines start with the upper hand but if one of the free hives goes up, they are now at a disadvantage. Think of it as do-or-die strategy.

I don't see how you could even say the marines lose nothing when when they do lose a hive location, a second hive goes up within four minutes and most of the time a lot of alien skulks will be scouting out and when you do attack the unbuilt hive the lerks/fades/onoses will already be there.

If you wanted to say that the aliens can lose more time because it takes four minutes to put up a hive but 10 seconds to SG rush a hive we would have a valid arguement (except that the obs then CC can be killed almost as fast.)

The argument that rfk has partially replaced rt res flow is ridiculous. In a normal game, there are probably around 50-70 marine kills. That's 100-140 worth of res. Whoop-dee-friggin-doo. In that same game (a 20 minute game) the single marine starting node gave the team about 300 res. So rfk counts for less than half of an rt, AND it's unreliable. I'm sorry, but half an rt's worth of res is NOT enough to swing the game in your favor, especially if you're losing. RFK is not a replacement for res control.

Example of securing a hive: Getting PG, some turrets to hold it.

Benefit: A hive cannot be put up easily (control of alien tech tree)
Secures 1 RT node (hive RT node)
Territorial control around the hive i.e. nearby RTs (marines patrol more easily)

Loss of this outpost:
Kharaa gain the opportunity to build a hive in this location
The hive node RT and nearby RTs will be hard to reinforce as marines need to walk from another location. Chances are skulks can keep marine RTs away.

Also, you are looking at hives as a deciding factor for marines. Well it is, by the abilities it grants the Kharaa. But you want to link marine tech to hive tech!

You view the marines not losing any upgrade investment even if they lose a hive location. But you forget about MS. I'm sure you guys have seen games where marines cap 3/4 of the map, lockdown 2 hives, AND ARE THEN WIPED OUT as a skulk rush decimates the weakly defended MS, wiping out ALL the tech.

The 2 sides play differently in this way. And at any rate, atm marines are at a disadvantage against the Kharaa. Forcing marines to hold hives will wind up causing games to become lockdowns, which limits the strategy involved. Making it harder for the marines will make NS unplayable.

You can argue that the whole game can be changed to be balanced around this change. Well, if you read the Flayra interview, there are some parts of the game that did not turn out as he wanted it.

To follow his vision, the game needs to be changed. But he says that he will not because it will take too long to balance the game. So realistically, not going to happen.

Bad idea.

the post makes perfect sense. even though the two teams are very different in styles there MUST be some common ground for them, otherwise the team who has the advantage (like the marines in this case) should naturally obliterate the other team.

Common ground? Resource Nodes.

Marines focus too much on locking down 2 hives and have few upgrades. Resource rich Kharaa fade and onos early and rape L1 shotguns.

Kharaa don't kill marine RTs. They see L2 HMG and a siege outside their building hive.

Marines concentrate on node killing. 1 node 2 hive aliens try to take out HMG and GL equipped marines assaulting their hive after their fade has died, and no one has the rez to refade.

Kharaa focus on killing nodes. Marines succeed in sieging the 2nd hive, but are left with MS and the hive node. Kharaa have rez to fade and obliterate the res poor marines. Once initial weapons are lost due to death, remaining LMG marines attempting to recap nodes are mere cattle waiting to be slaughtered.