Spores, parasite, constant hit and run, you name it, and it's probably a way to strip you of your life-saving armor. Nowadays, with sensory first being the strategy du jour, welders are even more vital. I can't tell you how many times I've seen one focus fade kill an entire marine team because they didn't have welders (or couldn't weld quickly enough, but that's another thread).

Welders, at 5 res a piece, are very expensive. You want at least half your marines to have one, and marines often die, leaving their welders in the field, so you have to drop some more.

To make welding happen more often (so many comms that refuse to drop welders UHHH) I propose that the armory gain another upgrade option. Just like how Hand Grenades can be researched at the armory for some res, and then every marine would spawn with one, the comm should be able to research Welders.

Upgrade: Welders
Researched at: Armory
Requires Adv. armory: No
Cost: 30 res
Time to research: 1 minute
Effect: Every marine that spawns in will be equipped with a welder.

Comms can still drop welders for 5 res if marines need it right from the beginning. The 30 res cost is equivalent to the cost of advancing the armory, and is a hefty investment. The comm, with 100 res at the beginning, can drop an IP, an armory, an obs, anda n arms lab as basic structures, and that already costs him 75 res. If he tries to research Welders from the get-go he'd have no res to get res nodes. This will add another element of strategy for the marine side.

Hopefully this will encourage marines to weld each other more since everybody will have one now.

How do you think this would affect heavy trains, and late game knowing you get a welder right from the get-go?

It would encourage people to weld. I think heavies are underpowered anyways due to stomp. Maybe having free welders will encourage heavy trains. On average, in a game in which the comm goes for Heavies, you won't see more than one train anyways in my experience. With 5 marines o the team, you've saved...25 res on that train, and you've spent 30 res on the upgrade.

30 res is a BIG resource investment, and the upgrade won't help in a firefight at all. It only helps after the fight is over, to bring a marine back to full combat readiness. The point is to get people to WELD more.

I personally don't think would affect the heavy train as much as a first though might suggest. Many public games don't take advantage of the welder, especially during heavy trains. Most people are too pre-occupied to weld. Even if they do try to, it wouldn't affect it too much, seeing as it would be atrade-off between welding, and firepower. A good attack from the aliens would see off most trains.

Only during clan games would it affect the late game. People in clan games know the rules better, and will take advantage of any situation that they are given. However, it is the very nature of humans to do so. If we get hand grenades as standard issue after an initail investment, then welders may be next on the agenda. The aliens have been give innate regeneration, which, given enough time, will fully heal that player, but cannot be relied upon during a battle. Personally, I have never seen welders being used during a battle. Self-preservation reactions do away with this.

In short, I think that a welder as an encompassing upgrade, like hand grenades would be a possible inclusion, as the advantages that would be garnered would only really be applied out of battle.

*edit*

Apologies if it's not my place to comment. I don't tend to pay much attention to the I&S forum, but this one really caught my eye. Feel free to tell me to shush if necessary...

Why would it not be your place to comment? Your post wasn't hard to understand, and you didn't say anything retarded.

This upgrade can be used to help against sensory first I think.

I like this idea alot, and was thinking the same thing actualy, but was just waiting to post....

I like everyting but it costing 30 rez. Much rather see it at 25, it would be an upgrade that would come around 1-2 min mark

I understand what you're saying, but I was afraid if I made the cost any lower people would scream it's overpowered :-p I'd be fine with 25 res as well.

This would make competitive play go crazy, I'd think.
While it wouldn't make a tremendous difference, it'd make enough a difference that the Comm would be able to drop a few more weapons or get a better upgrade sooner.

As for Pub play, I love nothing more than welding vents shut and I'm pretty sure other people like to do that as well. So, the result would probably serve to make Marines tougher and their structures as well and would probably make lone-skulk base assaults in pubs rather pointless when their structures are always repaired.. Free of charge after the upgrade is complete.

I think it's too drastic a change. I mean, in most competitive demos I've seen, there's usually 1 or 2 welders between the lot of the attack group and they trade it off amongst themselves. I think that alone tells you that Free Welders or Free upon upgrade could be too powerful.

But now, let me think about it.

The Comm could either drop a welder for 5 res that could be traded between 5 people and save 20 res or 15 res if he wants another in the field.. right off the bat upon Armory completion, or he researches it at the Armory for.. I'd guess 30 res or more to equip the next spawn wave of Marines with welders..

Yes, I think it'd alter Marine gameplay and provide quite a lot of resources.. Now I'm thinking about why Comms don't like Catalysts (Too expensive they say!) when Welders are similarly-priced (although more cost effective since they don't wear off).

The only sure thing:
It'd give the Marines quite a bit more res.

On pub play (which IS the main part of NS, it needs both pub and clan play to survive) its no longer ALWAYS SC first. Ive seen all 3 in use pretty regulary now, actually.

i can see this overpowering armor 1 a little bit.




it would have to make the alien team coordinate more for sure.



i like this idea.

Hmm it's an interesting trade-off. 6 instant welders for 5 res apiece whenever you want it, or a 1-time 30 res investment.

imo it'll be an interesting choice for marines in public games, but in tourny this upgrade will probably not be researched as it is a non-essential 30 res upgrade. 2 welders cost only 10 res and can be just as effective.

I really like this idea, it encourages teamplay and marines will not suffer as much in pub play when alot of new players dont even realise they have a welder, let alone what what the damn thing does (i have seen people think its a flame thrower------ honest to god, a FLAMETHROWER). Perhaps to make it a bit more of an edgy decision why not have it as an adv arm upgrade? There could be an interesting decision of when to take the welder as opposed to an armour or weapon upgrades. I dont think this would have a very large affect on pubs but clans may be a bit more brutal with it -> perhaps if they do decide to have seperate rules for pub/clan play this could be implemented then?

Sneaks

If 30 res is too much to consider, I think 25 res would be fair too. I don't think people realize exactly how wonderful welders are, and how much it does to keep amrines alive.

This would heavily cripple aliens, if attacked by a Heavy train. Good heavies will often weld each other. I think welders should be incorporated from the word go, have done for a long time but there is no easy way to balance it out. It would also make an early skulk rush near impossible. So I think this is not a particulary good idea.

How would this stop an early skulk rush (to base I'm assuming)? Welders do nothing in the middle of battle. Marines need to be at base AND survive the battle in order to weld their buildings.

Remember, this will NOT affect fighting at all! Welding action all happens AFTER fighting.

This will not affect heavy trains at all, except make them a bit cheaper.

I personally think this is a fantastic idea. I hate guarding an outpost, get attacked and need to weld something, only for the comm to be to busy to drop me one, and my PG is gone by the time I try to get back...

Good idea and I support it, but its been suggested numerous times on these boards.

IF it has been proposed numerous times, thent hat means quite a few people must like it. I hope the devs consider this idea.

Lol, in a heavy train, I'm normally the one with the GL and Welder, that's keeping everyone's armor up 0o'

I would tech it.

Why?
-On pubs everything that cant be lost is a good investment. (ups>weapons)
-I tend do upgrade the armory rather late anyway and the additional minute wont hurt that much.
-Seeing my rines weld more often would enlighten my heart

move this to protolab with armor 3 prerequisite and it'll be balanced. otherwise... no.

Good idea...marines REALLY need to weld more often...this would encourage them...

My thoughs exactly. Anything to get people to weld OFTEN is a good thing.

Since I have the same opinion, I can't actually join the discussion, but I'd also like to see more welders out there. At least, I would die because my mates are too dumb to have weapons out (funny, seeing 6 marines getting killed by 2 skulks because everyone welds someone), and not because a single marine with no expensive equipment is worthless.

this is a nice idea but it would be very unbalanced if you take a look at the aliens. The devs had to make most of the things similar so there are no seriously differences between the Marines and the Aliens. The similar function to the welder is the healspray. If you'd fix the welder's power, the aliens would have a big disadvantage because their healspray doesn't recover the armor that fast as the upgraded welder does :/

Umm there's this thing called the HIVE that aliens can get healed FOR FREE from the very beginning. For a skulk, one 3 heal sprays is all that is needed to completely replenish its armor even when it has CARAPACE. Without, one heal-spray will suffice. For the lerk, it's not much more. For the Fade, he has blink, and later on, metabolize. He doesn't NEED a gorge half the time. And Onos will probably have regen. The point is, aliens have always had it easier in terms of armor regeneration, and now, marines just might start replenishing each otehr's armor if they always have them. Who knows, maybe aliens should get USED TO FIGHTING MARINES WITH ARMOR! you know...they can ADAPT, as some people like to say (and veyr often too).

Aliens are already stronger than marines. I'm in favor of anything that saves money for the marines. As long as marines have res, they still have a chance, so the cheaper things are, the better.

Well what I mean is having a welder out won't *positively* affect the outcome of a fight most of the time

just a thought, but wouldnt you get at least close to the same effect if you decrease its cost to 4 or 3? Then you'd need to have a comm that had a clue, but it would b cheaper to supply and it would be more effective for its price. I dont think it makes sense for a marine to spawn with 'specialized' equipment. And you could make one heavy with a GL or an HMG completely all-powerful with 3 or 4 normal sidekicks welding the crap out of him.....

At least the way it is now you can just get another heavy instead of making every normal rine a support specialist.

Plus giving every rine a welder makes weldable vents and such much less of a risk, and it decreases a fair amount of an alien's ability to move about the map and strike out of nowhere.

Umm yea that's the whole POINT you know? To make marines a bit stronger. A welder is NOT a specialized equipment or whatever. It is something EVERY single marine should be equipped with because it saves lives. There is literally *nothing* else int he game that repairs armor, so they need it.

all im saying is its like giving every alien healspray (instantly no less)

And uhhh.... isnt almost every marine weap and structure designed to save lives?

Aliens and marines are DIFFERENT! If it were otherwise, marines would move faster, and standing near the armory or the CC would heal them at a decnet rate, as well as repair armor. The structures in NS are protected byt he marines, not the other way around. Nothing in this game repairs armor points except welders of that dumb self-weld upgrade in extra-levels2 plugin for Combat.

Right now, nobody welds in pubs...EVER. I want to see that changed. And even in competitive play the comm can't afford to hand out welders continuously, because marines DO die a lot, and welders get lost pretty easily, especially in the hostile environment of 3.0final.

maybe we just play in different pubs, if I have a welder, i will weld any who ask, and especially in heavy trains, sometimes people weld more than they shoot o.O

O and the gorge thing, i wasnt saying they were the same, just that a portable ability/weapon that is meant to fix or heal other players is the similarity. And its a fairly important one...

Hmm I really like the idea! But as some said, perhaps it would overpower armor1 as it is right now?

Perhaps once upgraded, welders would repair armor at a slower rate and/or would not replenish armor at 100% (e.g. A marine with 0 out of 45 armor pts could only go back to 40 after the first weld, 35 after de 2nd etc.)?

Err no, that'd practically destroy the usefulness of welders. I don't like the current armor system anyways. That's why I'm pushing for trhis idea, and the change to the armor system to armor doesn't absorb as much damage

The most important thing to rememebr is that most welding takes palce outside of combat, so welding speed isn't really the problem here. The fact that marines don't HAVE welders becuase the comm is res-starved is the problem. Once this upgrade is researched, people can weld, but they still have to survive the fight first.

First of all im 100% for this idea... second ALIENS DO HAVE A WELDER EQUIPPED. Its called innate regen and unlike welders they heal during combat so now my lvl 0 lmg takes 10 shots to kill a skulk instead of 9... I assume the ppl against this idea dont relize how unbalance this game is atm or that they play aliens all the time and dont want this implemented for stat cusion reasons.

Aliens and marines are different. This is why they get upgrades like regen, so they can be self-sufficient. While innate regen does help aliens considerably, it is not really related to welders specifically. It is more of a general buff to all aliens.

Of course, even though the method of healing is different both sides, one side has it a lot easier to heal fully, and welders as an upgrade will help correct that imbalance.

Lol yes church if u didnt notice i was trying to link the 2 together for balance issues . If u guys wanna balance it a diffrent way make cara only regenable through gorge heal . Now is that fair no not really but its wat marines basically have to do.

Here's another idea about free welders... as a limited upgrade

http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=91964

O i wasnt suggesting that at all im linking those 2 things together .

Just a comment...Church has emphasized time and time again that welding only happens after combat. But under the current system, I find that it can sometimes be extremely effective in a group to have 1 marine welding DURING combat. Even without med support, having an active welder in the group will extend armor0 and 1 marines lifespans by 2 bites each, and if you have meds as well you can make your LAs darn near invulnerable. The armor heal rate is high enough that if an LA has a skulk biting him on one side and a marine welding him on the other, hes NOT going to run out of armor.

Of course, this only works with a squad large enough to be able to afford to lose 1 guys firepower--meaning minimum 3 people in one place, preferably 4. This is a rare enough occurance (excepting large servers...more on that in a moment) that giving a permanent-welder upgrade still wouldn't be overpowered, but it would at least allow the original intent of changing the armor system to be recognized (see my post in Church's other armor thread).

However, in very large servers (12v12 type games), I can see this being just a bit imbalancing...you would then get many more free welders for the price of the original upgrade, and would be far more likely to have enough marines in one place at one time for them to matter.

That may well be the case, except for 2 factors. Insane skulk respawn speed at those sizes, and lerks. It just takes an instance in which most of the marines are reloading and a single, backstabbing skulk can clear half the marines in the stack before getting knifed to death.

In which case the skulks from the front will massacre the remaining marines, as the lerk gas keeps stripping away armour.

Upgrades have *always* been better for larger marine teams. Armor1 still costs only 20 res for a team of 6 or a team of 12. Now, I personally think with the whole free upgrades thing, aliens start with way, WAY too mcuh res on a 12v12 game. 12*25 = 300 res = 3x marine starting.

In a big game, aliens can afford to use a lot of tactics they simply can't support in scrims, for example laying lots and lots of OCs at chokepoints, forcing marines to spend even MORE res on meds/ammo to clear them out. With larger gorups of marines means one lerk can drain the comm of res even faster than before. And of course the INSANE spawn rates (skulks spawn what...every 4 seconds on 12v12? Or was it every 5?) that the aliens don't have to pay extra for (marines fork out an extra 40 res for 2 extra IPs in order just to keep up with spawn rates in really big games).

This welder upgrade is kinda the same thing. It'll mean different things in different size games, and that's ok becuase there are lots of other examples already, like those I listed above.

Oh btw, if I see one marine with a welder out, I'll go after that marine first. Basically a free meal. Seriously, an extra LMG shooting at me is scarier than one LMG and a welder, in my experience. Even if I *only* manage to take down the guy with the welder, there is now one less marine, and if there is only one left, no more welding is possible. Marines run slowly, and it takes forever for a marine to reinforce into an area unless there is a PG.

Ok, you two have successfully answered my one complaint with the system, and I now fully support Church's welder upgrade idea. But I still think welding during combat is useful...