This will be a DAMN long post. Just so you all know. Its about actually really using CO to learn NS, instead the fraging its now. Pls, incase I need more then one post (never know), don't post till I said I'm done.

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In NS ups are chained.. you can't get HMG without Adv Armory, and no proto without a AA and armslab. For kharaa you can not get more then once chamber without another hive.

Lets get this in co shall we?

Now before you start cursing stuff like balance, keep on reading to the end.

First.. we need new upgrades. lets start with marines. The upgrades are called:
Armory, Advanced Armory, Armslab, Observatory, Prototype Lab.

Now if you want to upgrade to a shotty, you FIRST need to get "armory", gain another level, then get "shotgun". So for the HMG, you would need armory upgrade, aa upgrade, then HMG.
For JP you would need armory, AA, armslab and proto to even get JP. ouch? I doubt.
Scan and Motion Tracking need a obs upgrade. I will put down a list below with all details for rines lateron. Resup can always be upgraded.

Kharaa can gestate to a lifeform always. however they got upgrade "hive2" and "hive3". So in order to get leap, you must first get upgrade hive2. if you picked a defense upgrade, you can ONLY get defense upgrades untill you upgrade a hive to again another chamber. You also need the upgrade "defense"

Now you may shout.. BALANCE? yes, its quite easy. First, let us make a list:
note I placed "-" to show the tree.

Rines:
-Armslab (1)
* armor + weapon ups, along with catpack
-Armory (1)
* shotty, welder, mines
--Advanced Armory (1)
* HMG, GL
---Prototype Lab (1)
* JP, HA
Observatory (1)
* MT, Scan
(total 5 new ups)


Kharaa:
(for example, I will begin with defense, but this of course can be any chamber)
defense upgrade (1)
* regeneration, carapace, redemption
-hive2 (1)
--movement upgrade (1)
--hive ability
* celerity, adrenaline, silence
--hive3 (1)
---hive ability
---sensory upgrade (1)
* focus, cloak, SOF
onos
lerk
gorge
fade
skulk
(total 5 new ups)

Hey, thats nice. 5 new ups. That means we need 5 new levels (Co max Lvls becomes 15 instead 10) I find 15 also a nice number, not something like 12.

Now there is noone who wants to wait longer to get ups, so lets increase the speed on which we get ups. So you need LESS Xp to get a lvl. By this formula:
XP_NEEDED / 15 * 100
This number is smaller and should be used instead on the 15 lvl system

Now the menu logically needs fixing aswell. After all, we don't wanna be thrown dead by n00bs shouting OMG I CAN NOT CLOAK WITH REGEN, WHY?

For rines its simple.. like armor1>armor2 we do this. Only new part is if you get proto, you need AA and armslab upgrade. I suggest we do it like this:

if you go to the AA or Armslab square you can go to a greyout protosquare. If you stand on the protosquare you also see the other upgrade below:

PROTO
| |
| |
| armslab
AA
|
armory

Aint perfect, and if someone has a better idea, lemme know.

For kharaa we really need adaptable menu's.
Example (incase you picked DC first):

sensory
|
START--defense--hive2--movement

upon hive2 (and picking SC for example) the menu changes:


sensory
|
START--defense--hive3--movement

So basicly, menus change on the options you make, a bit more work to code, but you wanna see all those Qs?

Ok.. I do not think we have real balance isues.. if ppl wanna rush JP, they got nothing but JP and LMG. If ppl rush onos they are stuck with one hive abilities and ups. You may not think it a flaw, but if the other team has someone who went dmg3, and another who went HMG, your little one hive onos (which it basicly is) won't cut it.

Sure, early onos can be a pain, but it also can be a joke. This simulates real NS, no more, no less. just alot faster, combat style. Early HMGs, early onos, early fade. All possible in NS but at a cost of other ups. And well, this 15lvl way has it.

Thats basicly it, I hope I was clear enought.

And yes, I am done now.

I really love this. This is perfect. Impliment it, now.

For the alien menu system, have it set up just like the current one, but each chamber submenu becomes an upgrade, and once you have one, the others will be greyed out until you have another hive level, just like how the menu was in 1.04. You would then have the 2 hive upgrades on the left, as they are now, and the evolve menu on bottom, with the comm menu above.

For marines, it could get complicated. try this

The right side and the top

Might be better those menus yes. Aslong as ppl realise that they need AA and armslab for proto for example.

Also, it just came to me. the "commander, I need ammo/medpack" does NOTHING in combat. either remove it or shove it in the same tree with resup, and make you request them. uh?:
A. you get ammo/medpack randomly yes or no
B. you request and it gets given anywayz. (unless you spam it a trillion time by key, those should be ignored and you should be blacklisted untill respawn)

just a small adition to my original idea to simulate med/ammo packs.

Yes, thats a pretty good idea too, change resupply so that you have to call for it. It will still have the (3 sec?) timer, so you can't spam, it's just that you have to call for the ammo/meds. It also gives you a choice. If you don't want to be brightly lit up like a christmas tree after walking through that spore cloud, you won't be. It also adds a bit, albeit tiny, amount of skill requirement. In classic I will often decide to try and empty my clip into that fade instead of calling for meds. I might do both, but moving my finger takes away my strafing for a second, not good when you're trying to survive. It will help balance out resupply.

This should probably be split to it's own thread, btw.

However, in classic, smart comms DO medspam. It's one of the most important part of being a comm, knowing how to med marines quickly and accurately. I say resupply should work like this:

Ammo packs will work just like the ressuply of b6 (fixed HMG ammo problems)

Health packs work like this: Each marine will have his own personal "pool" of medpacks. Each marine starts with 5 meds in the pool when he first gets resupply. Every 6 seconds, a medpack is added into the pool, up to a maximum of 10 medpacks. A marine gets a medpack whenever he calls for one, and if he wants to call for it really quickly 10 times in a row to simulate medspam, so be it. However, the fast he requests meds, the less accurate the meds are. A marine who calls for all 10 in the spam of a second or two might see *some* of the meds land a foot away from him, although the meds will generally be dropped in the direction he is heading into.

Now, if a marine calls for all ten at once, he won't be able to receive meds quickly for a little while because he has exhausted his pool, and must wait a full minute before he can get spammed by all 10 again.

This system simulate a comm medspamming, and the pool simulate the limited res the comm has.

well lets see, I really like what your going for, but I don't think I'd like to see it implemented, though I do think it is definatly a good idea

see combat may have started as a training tool but it's developed into somewhat of a nice game all to itself, now I know the ol conflict of combat vs classic is rather on at times

personally I like both, I've been playing since 1.04 (I love you permagorge!) and I find both modes rather fun right now, I like to switch up the pace a bit, after a few longer (sadly not long enough) games I like a few quick matchs of combat, it's really helped improve my shooting skills thats for sure and I have been leaning towards it more often now as my old favorite role of permagorge has been slowly decaying into nothingness and classic games just don't have that Classic feel anymore

whilst I like the idea of a training game of sorts I do like the combat as what it is now and I'd hate to see a game thats fine on it's own be downgraded to a teaching tool after it's became much more than that, yeah it doesn't teach exactly how classic is played but thats why it's a game to itself I mean lets face it ya don't see many people playing halflifes teaching program for fun right?

not sure where I'm going , lol a third game type seems like alot more work than it's worth but this is basically quite the redesign anyway so it might as well be a training mode

Its actually NOT a downgrade.

speed is still as fast cause XP is gained faster. (so new lvls really do nothing to slow you down)

You can still get shotty in 2 XPs. (instead dmg1+shotty its armory+shotty)
Sure.. HIGHLVL like HA, JP, hive ability4, these are gona be much harder to get. But with all the nagging ppl do bout rushing these ups, I find it hard to imagine ppl having probs with it

excellent idea! we really need co to be something like ns... nsplayers are being spoilt by co too much

anyone else who has comment?

thoughed I'd bump this up again to see if anyone has a opinion on it.

Yeah, it might get people back into the spirit of ns, without drowning them in res immediately until they start feeling the strategy side of things.

+1


However, you still need a way to train commanders. Maybe only allow structures to be dropped while players were in the chair, but allow the corresponding upgrades such as shotguns and armor levels to be bought like normal.

only way to train commanders is putting a experienced soldier in at a certain time.
preferably after said soldier read my guide.

Wow! I really like this idea and the additional suggestions. I don't know what else to add, not yet at least.



vote yes

Since this is bumped up anyway...

If co was about to become the training for ns we might as well add something like the little xp reward for parasiting marines and so on. This way people would learn to play ns better and there wouldn't be so much of the makaveli fragfest problem.

I guess its about

1.) Is it worth the huge change and the work involved? Maybe in ns:s.
2.) Do the devs want the co to become the "inferior" game mode?

I'd be more than willing to sacrifice the co to get pub ns better. Just keep it newbie friendly and simple and the stepping stone to ns-mantra should still work