Some people ask why the devs seemingly nerfed the Onos so much from its 1.04 glory days of massacreing squads of marines on its own to its current status of scared wimpy space-cow that runs around, hoping to eat a marine and get away before it gets shredded like...paper.
Well, the answer is, the 1.04 Onos wasn't a hit and run unit. It was veritably a living TANK capable to surviving the toughest of gun fire. Right now, with devour in its arsenal, it's a hit and run unit. Granted, the fact that Onos can appear before hive3 means it needed a nerf, and that is definitely legitimate. However, mnay players still feel the nerf was too much.
What do you think happens if a hit-and-run unit were also given the enormous tanking abilities of a...well...tank? Then it becomes absolutely impossible to kill if it chooses to play hit and run. That is why the Onos tanking ability was removed: because the devs wanted it to play a hit and run role. Eat a marine, get out. Stomp before and after. Rinse and repeat. Makes the Onos look like a pansy.
Ok. So the solution is to remove its hit and run capabilities, and make it a true tank again! If devour (the hit and run ability) of the Onos was removed, then there'd be no reason for it not to be a tank anymore! So, I propose a new ability to replace devour that wil make it a tank once again.
===The new ability===
HARDEN
Properties:
1) Available at hive1.
2) Is an ability that consumes adrenaline at a steady rate, like Charge.
3) Unlike Charge, can be toggled on and off.
4) All damage goes to armor during harden, and armor effectiveness is doubled.
5) While Harden is active, the Onos will only do 50% of the damage it normally does.
6) For a few (maybe 3) seconds after Harden is toggled off, the Onos will continue to deal only 50% damage. (This is to prevent an Onos will toggling on Harden as he runs towards the marines, and then toggling it off just as he reaches the marine to gore.)
7) Does NOT give off a sound (like Charge does) to allow marines to know that you're using the ability. Marines can only know for certain if a) You're soaking up incredible amount of damage or b) Your gore doesn't hurt as much.
8) Has a cooldown time after each toggle of 5(?) seconds.
The purpose of Harden is pretty much to let the Onos be the TANK is was meant to be. It is big. It has PRESENCE, and by turning Harden on, it'll become a true bullet soaker, wasting all of the marines' ammo as the other aliens suddenly swarm in for the kills. The good thing is, the Onos has a CHOICE of whether to turn it on or not. If the marines get smart and don't shoot at the Onos, you can still go in and gore them at full damage. The 50% damage penalty is there so it IS a choice for the Onos to make. The marines will have to guess whether to shoot the Onos or not, since they could be wasting their bullets on something that's only taking half damage. Combined with Umbra, and some MCs, and sitting near the hive, and have regen or cara, the Onos can pretty much be invincible.
The role of the Onos is once again the TANK. It is not as overpowered as in 1.04, of course, given that it is available at any hive now, and has to make a choice between being able to deal damage. All those cooldowns and timers are thre to encourage that the Onos make a choice for a confrontation and then STICK to the choice.
Thought? Criticisms?
Full Version: Devour Is What Makes Onos Like Paper
Unknown Worlds Forums > Natural Selection > Natural Selection Discussion > Ideas and Suggestions Forum > Ideas for future versions
Thumbs up!
Anything to get rid of devour, i like.
*thumbs up*
*thumbs up*
Sucks, the onos is a weapon of attrition. Swallow the higher tier marines and then plowing through the LMGers.
Thumbs down, onos is fine the way it is, it could use a light hp/armor boost, but very slight one.
Thumbs down, onos is fine the way it is, it could use a light hp/armor boost, but very slight one.
Just one change in my opinion:
Make harden increase the effectiveness of BOTH HP and AP... unless you meant make AP ABSORB more damage too
Just making AP absorb dbl damage will result in onii dying with like... 50% of their armor remaining... so you'd need to make it absorb around 75% MORE damage from HP to AP damage...
so instead of taking damage at say... 50% to HP and 50% to AP, it'd take like 10% to HP and 90% to AP. This should also then cause regeneration to affect ONLY armor while this ability is active (same with DC's) as that way the onos isn't truely invincible (since the armor, once depleated, still absorbs damage as far as I know)
also, have it reduce the onos speed by 10%
suggested adren drain- about 10% per second
Make harden increase the effectiveness of BOTH HP and AP... unless you meant make AP ABSORB more damage too
Just making AP absorb dbl damage will result in onii dying with like... 50% of their armor remaining... so you'd need to make it absorb around 75% MORE damage from HP to AP damage...
so instead of taking damage at say... 50% to HP and 50% to AP, it'd take like 10% to HP and 90% to AP. This should also then cause regeneration to affect ONLY armor while this ability is active (same with DC's) as that way the onos isn't truely invincible (since the armor, once depleated, still absorbs damage as far as I know)
also, have it reduce the onos speed by 10%
suggested adren drain- about 10% per second
3/3 Expressionless marines! 
The onos now is just a wimp. 2 hmgs can easily take it out the way it is now. MAKE TEH ONOS A TANK AGAAAAIN!
The onos now is just a wimp. 2 hmgs can easily take it out the way it is now. MAKE TEH ONOS A TANK AGAAAAIN!
even though the idea intrgues me im voting no, reason? i like ns now, i like onosing, maybe it isnt exactly what the devs expected but it still is the lifeform that turns games around. you dont see lerks rushing 50 turrets and 3 ele tf's do you? nope the onos is a tank even now. to chnage it would be to change ns.
MY VOTE IS NO
MY VOTE IS NO
Eh, eh no....
| QUOTE (BulletHead @ Nov 1 2004, 09:44 PM) |
| Just one change in my opinion: Make harden increase the effectiveness of BOTH HP and AP... unless you meant make AP ABSORB more damage too Just making AP absorb dbl damage will result in onii dying with like... 50% of their armor remaining... so you'd need to make it absorb around 75% MORE damage from HP to AP damage... so instead of taking damage at say... 50% to HP and 50% to AP, it'd take like 10% to HP and 90% to AP. This should also then cause regeneration to affect ONLY armor while this ability is active (same with DC's) as that way the onos isn't truely invincible (since the armor, once depleated, still absorbs damage as far as I know) also, have it reduce the onos speed by 10% suggested adren drain- about 10% per second |
Ok, how about this:
All damage goes to armor during harden, and armor effectiveness is doubled.
If I know the armor system correctly right now, let's say an Onos has 700/600, and he gets hit with a hand grenade (it's 100 damage I think). Regularly, at hive 1, 30% of damage goes to hp, and 70% of damage goes to armor (correct me if I'm wrong). So, the hp would take a 30 point dive, and the armor, being hit with 70 points of damage, would only go down by 35 (at hive 1, one AP can absorb 2 points of damage) and the Onos is left at 670/565.
With harden, the Onos armor would take all 100 points of the damage. Normally, one AP can absorb 2 points, but with harden, that value doubles, and 1 AP can absorb 4 points of damage! The Onos armor would only take a 100/4 (25) point dive and he'd be left at 700/575).
I think the Onos is slow enough as it is, so a speed penalty won't be needed.
I will edit my first post if I can to reflect the change.
I never take onos without celerity.
Have 1/4 of all damage done to the Onos while in harden mode get added on to Gore's attack power.
So does 400 damage, 100 is added to Gore; 800, 200 damage is added onto Gore.
So does 400 damage, 100 is added to Gore; 800, 200 damage is added onto Gore.
Umm no. That would do exactly the OPPOSITE of what I want to Onos to be. If you're receiving the benefits of extra hard armor, you must also endure the PENALTY of doing half damage.
I actually suggested this idea on the onos subforum.
It's a good idea, but reducing onos damage is pointless.
Maybe replace charge with devour and impliment this as hive 1?
It's a good idea, but reducing onos damage is pointless.
Maybe replace charge with devour and impliment this as hive 1?
I think this is good for hive 1. It'll give the Onos someone that's way more helpful than devour when it comes to breaking bases. Hive1 Onos is useless right now right? With Harden at hive1, they can actually help against 2-hive lockdowns.
And the damage penalty has to be there, or else there is no choice as to whether you want to use Harden or not. I don't want the Onos to become mindlessly overpowered. It needs to be smart in accessing whether he wants ot be able take more damage at the particualr situation or do more damage.
And the damage penalty has to be there, or else there is no choice as to whether you want to use Harden or not. I don't want the Onos to become mindlessly overpowered. It needs to be smart in accessing whether he wants ot be able take more damage at the particualr situation or do more damage.
The only reason the onos was more powerful in 1.0 was because the hitboxes were messed up.
The onos should NOT be able to take on 5+ marines on his own, but he should be considered a support unit, using stomp to make marines very easy for the other lifeforms to kill.
He takes fire, the other aliens kill the marines = win.
If he can take fire, and kill the marines, then other lifeforms aren't even needed = overpowered.
The onos is fine imo.
The onos should NOT be able to take on 5+ marines on his own, but he should be considered a support unit, using stomp to make marines very easy for the other lifeforms to kill.
He takes fire, the other aliens kill the marines = win.
If he can take fire, and kill the marines, then other lifeforms aren't even needed = overpowered.
The onos is fine imo.
I see this as the most redundantly stupid idea ever... you are basicly giving an ability that aproximatly doubles the amount of damage the onos can take. Then, you halve its damage done while in this state. Thus, the amount of damage done before the onos must leave is the same. Double the time, halve the damage, you arrive back at 1.
This really doesn't seem to accomplish anything though I agree devour needs to go.
This really doesn't seem to accomplish anything though I agree devour needs to go.
An onos should have teammates, should he not?
Thumbs up from me for sure. I hate devour(and stomp, but less so)
Thumbs up from me for sure. I hate devour(and stomp, but less so)
| QUOTE (Toothy @ Nov 2 2004, 12:20 AM) |
| The only reason the onos was more powerful in 1.0 was because the hitboxes were messed up. The onos should NOT be able to take on 5+ marines on his own, but he should be considered a support unit, using stomp to make marines very easy for the other lifeforms to kill. He takes fire, the other aliens kill the marines = win. If he can take fire, and kill the marines, then other lifeforms aren't even needed = overpowered. The onos is fine imo. |
Even if the onos should only be support/damage sponge, this idea makes it all the more suited for that purpose.
At the moment, it's a hit and run/stomp ****. More like a 75 res fade, no?
If you were to get focus and use harder would gore be super slow?
As the suggestion is to halve the damage, I'd assume it'd do normal damage(more or less) at (about) half the normal attack speed.
I imagine it would do the damage of normal gore at half the speed if used while using Harden.
And this could only promote teamwork, since it wouldn't help the individual onos(see Boojum Snarks reply), but help the onos take damage instead of his teammates.
And this could only promote teamwork, since it wouldn't help the individual onos(see Boojum Snarks reply), but help the onos take damage instead of his teammates.
| QUOTE (A Boojum Snark @ Nov 2 2004, 12:26 AM) |
| I see this as the most redundantly stupid idea ever... you are basicly giving an ability that aproximatly doubles the amount of damage the onos can take. Then, you halve its damage done while in this state. Thus, the amount of damage done before the onos must leave is the same. Double the time, halve the damage, you arrive back at 1. This really doesn't seem to accomplish anything though I agree devour needs to go. |
You would be (almost) correct if the Onos were alone. (In fact it can still use Harden to run away to safety if it needs to) But you see there are these things called TEAMMATES. See, while the marines are all emptying their clips into YOU at half damage, thinking you are a big great threat (and you do look SO powerful) while your gore really isn't that big of a threat at a mere 95/2 damage an attack (and the great thing is, the marines don't KNOW that for sure. You COULD have Harden on, or you might not). So, the marines, having spent most or all of their ammo on YOU (the fierce looking but not really damaging Onos in this particualr battlle), are busy reloading while the rest of your team (you know, the Fades, the lerks, who hopefully provided you with umbra, and the skulks blink/fly/leap at them, and tear them to pieces.
This thing called teamwork is very good. Harden makes you a TEAM player, allowing your team to do great things. It certainly won't make you get Frags faster as a solo Onos, but NS isn't about Frags now is it?
Gneralas: Harden doesn't affect the Onos's rate of fire at all. He'd still be goring at the same rate, but each gore just does half damage. Incidentally, charge will also do half damage, but that's probably not a big issue. With Focus, the Onos will have the Focus penalty as usual of a slow rate of fire. Combine the focus bonus of double damage witht he Harden penalty of half damage, and the Onos will be doing normal damage each Gore, but at the slow Focus pace. A Focus Harden Onos is the worst combination for taking out structures.
Thumbs down...
Onos was a tank in 1.04 and 2.0 because the hitboxes weren't fixed =/.
You just can't make him a tank anymore without giving him 1000000hp/ap which isnt possible.
Devour is avctually good taking out one of the mean ha+hmg in the group and gore to slaughter marines.Only thing what he needs is improving charge and maybe gore take out level 1 armor marines with 2 attacks.
Onos was a tank in 1.04 and 2.0 because the hitboxes weren't fixed =/.
You just can't make him a tank anymore without giving him 1000000hp/ap which isnt possible.
Devour is avctually good taking out one of the mean ha+hmg in the group and gore to slaughter marines.Only thing what he needs is improving charge and maybe gore take out level 1 armor marines with 2 attacks.
I like the idea. It gives the skulks who were saving for a hive something to do with the res if there is a 2 hive lockdown. Especially when the fades can't kill the HMG marines that are usually present at that time. Having an Onos bullet sponge would definitely increase teamwork. Teamwork or the lack there of is a major problem that Kharaa face sense against HMGs and GLs as a pack of skulks get torn to shreds if they charge such firepower. So if Mr. Onos can run in and distract the marines other life forms can move in and get the kills.
| QUOTE (BaRT @ Nov 2 2004, 11:00 AM) |
| Thumbs down... Onos was a tank in 1.04 and 2.0 because the hitboxes weren't fixed =/. You just can't make him a tank anymore without giving him 1000000hp/ap which isnt possible. Devour is avctually good taking out one of the mean ha+hmg in the group and gore to slaughter marines.Only thing what he needs is improving charge and maybe gore take out level 1 armor marines with 2 attacks. |
Can you try being logical in your next post?
Did you even read my post? I already offered a solution to making him a tank without rh need to buff up its armor value (the whole ARMOR TAKING LESS DAMAGE FROM MARINE THING you know?) so you have stated no reason why this is a bad idea.
And yes, devour does its job well. I'm not arguing that it's not. I just don't like it, and feel that it makes the Onos into something which it should not be: a hit and run unit. With the removal of devour, the Onos can now help the Kharaa is a totally DIFFERENT way (a way more reminiscent of the 1.04 era, but not as powerful).
i think something like this is a much better suggestion than everyone always saying to give onos more hp/armor. since the new cara boost onos get, they have plenty of armor.
as for people complaining about onos taking lots of damage, its a thing that takes up half your screen and everyone knows it can be devastating... so they SHOOT it. and i think meatshield makes a very good point by saying that people who hit and run with onos should have to deal with the fact that they will take a lot of damage, and do very little in return when working with several people with hmgs and whatnot. but, thats what stomp and devour have effectively done.. all the time, i see an onos run in, stomp, devour, gore gore gore, then back up stomping all the way out of the hallway.
i very much like this idea. harden. have your armor absorb most of the damage, and reduce it in half.
as for people complaining about onos taking lots of damage, its a thing that takes up half your screen and everyone knows it can be devastating... so they SHOOT it. and i think meatshield makes a very good point by saying that people who hit and run with onos should have to deal with the fact that they will take a lot of damage, and do very little in return when working with several people with hmgs and whatnot. but, thats what stomp and devour have effectively done.. all the time, i see an onos run in, stomp, devour, gore gore gore, then back up stomping all the way out of the hallway.
i very much like this idea. harden. have your armor absorb most of the damage, and reduce it in half.
I like anything that brings the damn thing back to the roots of its name.
The thing is a big hi-man right now
The thing is a big hi-man right now
Wow, a somewhat revolutionary idea that I actually support. Great idea.
| QUOTE (Emanon @ Nov 2 2004, 03:56 PM) |
| I like anything that brings the damn thing back to the roots of its name. The thing is a big hi-man right now |
Hi-man?
| QUOTE (|ds|meatshield @ Nov 1 2004, 11:52 PM) |
| Umm no. That would do exactly the OPPOSITE of what I want to Onos to be. If you're receiving the benefits of extra hard armor, you must also endure the PENALTY of doing half damage. |
Can I just ask what trade off marines have.
Armour=more armour
Weapons=better weapons
And with aliiens
focus=twice as powerful, 1.something times slower
(your idea) harden = more armour less attack
As you can see the upgrades that marines can get compared to the upgrades aliens can get is a little unbalanced.
As for removing devour....... Not unless you somehow stop the onos from dying in half a second to 3 hmgers.
I don't think it should lower the damage of gore... having energy going down at a rapid rate while using this ability is a big enough balancer.
Well, there of course needs to be balance testing of course. If the ability is found to be too powerful without the damage penalty, then the penalty will stay. If not, then it will go. That's for the vets and PTs to discover, but my basic idea is for the Onos to be able to tank pretty much twice as much damage as he does now with Harden toggled on (which answers eKo's question. I wonder if he actually read the thread) and to prevent the Onos from having it on all the time, there should be some sort of negative thing to make the Onos think twice about using it. Heck, the energy drain rate from harden can be another variable for the balancers to play with. Maybe with a low enough adren drain, the half damage can be kept in.
I like this idea. It kill multiple birds with one stone; gives Onoses their tank functionality back without overpowering stomp, eliminates the all-around annoyance of Devour, and gives Onos something to do at Hive 1 besides run away. This would be especially lethal with good alien teamwork, as the Onos could absorb full clips for its teammates and really serve its purpose as a tank for once.
I love this idea but I wish there was a way to keep devour and stomp...
#1
h0 - gore
h1 - harden/shield
h2 - stomp
h3 - devour
#2
h0 - gore
h1 - stomp
h2 - harden/shield
h3 - devour
#3
h0 - gore
h1 - stomp
h2 - devour
h3 - harden/shield
Perhaps you could combine charge and harden/shield together? That would rock!
Don't remove devour Imao, it's the only reason why people fear the onos still at all. (As spending idle time looking at onos guts and slowly dying is a fate worse than a quick death) Stomp is also fearful as you are helpless to flee or fight as the onos comes up to eat you.
#1
h0 - gore
h1 - harden/shield
h2 - stomp
h3 - devour
#2
h0 - gore
h1 - stomp
h2 - harden/shield
h3 - devour
#3
h0 - gore
h1 - stomp
h2 - devour
h3 - harden/shield
Perhaps you could combine charge and harden/shield together? That would rock!
Don't remove devour Imao, it's the only reason why people fear the onos still at all. (As spending idle time looking at onos guts and slowly dying is a fate worse than a quick death) Stomp is also fearful as you are helpless to flee or fight as the onos comes up to eat you.
I would persoanlly fight a 3.0 Onos than a 1.04 Onos. With some luck, a few of us can acutally kill one. In 1.04, an Onos that died was something hat happened once in a blue moon. It was scary back then because it was damned impossible to kill. It didn't have devour, and paralyze didn't stop marines from shooting you (just from moving), and people still feared it. This will put some of the fear back into the Onos.
Right now, I don't fear an Onos. I find it to be an extreme annoyance. But fear it, nope. Yes, I hate looking at the red screen of devourness, and that is one of the main reasons I'm removing it. I don't fear it, but i hate it. However, if I see a 5-ton tank of muscle and sinew that I just can't seem to kill with 5 of my buddies, then I'm scared.
Just remember, DEVOUR IS HIT AND RUN! You can't give a hit and run unit the power of a tank. With devour gone, people will go back to gore more (which is way more fun for me anyways)
Right now, I don't fear an Onos. I find it to be an extreme annoyance. But fear it, nope. Yes, I hate looking at the red screen of devourness, and that is one of the main reasons I'm removing it. I don't fear it, but i hate it. However, if I see a 5-ton tank of muscle and sinew that I just can't seem to kill with 5 of my buddies, then I'm scared.
Just remember, DEVOUR IS HIT AND RUN! You can't give a hit and run unit the power of a tank. With devour gone, people will go back to gore more (which is way more fun for me anyways)
While I agree that devour is a hit and run weapon, it's also a very good weapon, and one of the few counters to the HA/HMG.
In order to address the issue, rather than removing devour completely, why not remove the "run" aspect of it? An Onos already suffers a slight speed drop while it's devouring a marine, why not make that more extreme. Cut it's speed to 1/3rd or 1/4 normal while devouring. Perhaps increase the health gained from devouring some.
With devouring nerfed like this, you could then safely buff the onos to survive for a little bit in a fire-fight.
In order to address the issue, rather than removing devour completely, why not remove the "run" aspect of it? An Onos already suffers a slight speed drop while it's devouring a marine, why not make that more extreme. Cut it's speed to 1/3rd or 1/4 normal while devouring. Perhaps increase the health gained from devouring some.
With devouring nerfed like this, you could then safely buff the onos to survive for a little bit in a fire-fight.
Cit its speed to 1/3 or 1/4 of its normal? That would remove the run aspect of it. However, with Onos at the speed of a freakin crawl, it's also be almost useless in a real combat sitaution after devouring anyone, making it useless is another way. It can't run, and now it can't really fight because marines can easily outrun it.
Besides, what would be the order of weapons now? what hive would this new devour be at?
Besides, what would be the order of weapons now? what hive would this new devour be at?
I like the idea.
+10/10
+10/10
| QUOTE |
| If devour (the hit and run ability) of the Onos was removed |
Whatever the suggestion, I agree when it is combined with this. Devour is the biggest reason why I type 'disconnect' or 'quit' to console.
| QUOTE (Wirhe @ Nov 4 2004, 04:46 AM) | ||
Whatever the suggestion, I agree when it is combined with this. Devour is the biggest reason why I type 'disconnect' or 'quit' to console. |
lol. You do know a lot of servers ban you if you disconnect on purpose when being devoured right?
| QUOTE (Kwil @ Nov 4 2004, 09:07 AM) |
| Cut it's speed to 1/3rd or 1/4 normal while devouring. |
That would make it useless for killing anything except solo marines, and solo marines are pretty much dead anyway if you have onos.
I agree with the onos being an annoyance instead of a force to be feared. I also agree with devour being the worst idea ever... for a FPS game.
I think the main problem for any idea is how it is translated into normal gameplay. While you have thought this out very thoroughly, there are a few flaws in your plan which i don't feel you have properly considered.
1) What type of games would this work in? Positives and negatives of both pub play (which you seem to have engineered this for) and clan games. You are looking at 2 completely different styles of play.
2) Combat - frowned upon by many, loved by others, regardless of yours or my personal POV about combat, how would this change balance out in combat? Is it still a workable idea in a game that is virtually Team Deathmatch?
3) Implementation, ok i don't expect you to have an understanding of exactly what it takes to program such a change, but is it one that can seriously work?
These are a few things that i feel need to be taken into consideration by anyone considering any change to the current system. The main thing is a balance issue, yes my personal opinion is that the onos is not the creature it should be, and currently until at least 2 hive can be taken down by a single clip of HMG, I personally feel this would be an idea that won't translate, but it's only my opinion and i'm sure the powers that be will make up their own minds.
For my own case i see the main problem of removing devour to be the following -
How the hell do you kill a HA?
Charge is useless on ha unless you can control the bloody thing and which way the marines are jumping, which you cant.
Gore takes about 6 swipes to kill a HA, in which time they can enter a whole HMG clip of HMG into you and kill you. Doing half the damage for 3 seconds after coming out of harden, while you are still taking normal damage from the HMG, makes it useless to use harden then attack. You are only going to use harden to protect you as you run away, total opposite of what you want to happen.
Harden and stomp are not attacks, so the might of the Alien army is nothing more than an average farmers cow, unable to cause any damage to a HA. Devour is the ONLY weapon in the alien armoury useful for taking out HA's. Remove this and not only do you make the onos a useless alien, you take away the only useful weapon against HA. Balanced?? I dont think so.
This is my POV. You stated that people were not reasoning why this is a bad idea, well i am. It makes the onos into an overgrown gorge that cant build.
1) What type of games would this work in? Positives and negatives of both pub play (which you seem to have engineered this for) and clan games. You are looking at 2 completely different styles of play.
2) Combat - frowned upon by many, loved by others, regardless of yours or my personal POV about combat, how would this change balance out in combat? Is it still a workable idea in a game that is virtually Team Deathmatch?
3) Implementation, ok i don't expect you to have an understanding of exactly what it takes to program such a change, but is it one that can seriously work?
These are a few things that i feel need to be taken into consideration by anyone considering any change to the current system. The main thing is a balance issue, yes my personal opinion is that the onos is not the creature it should be, and currently until at least 2 hive can be taken down by a single clip of HMG, I personally feel this would be an idea that won't translate, but it's only my opinion and i'm sure the powers that be will make up their own minds.
For my own case i see the main problem of removing devour to be the following -
How the hell do you kill a HA?
Charge is useless on ha unless you can control the bloody thing and which way the marines are jumping, which you cant.
Gore takes about 6 swipes to kill a HA, in which time they can enter a whole HMG clip of HMG into you and kill you. Doing half the damage for 3 seconds after coming out of harden, while you are still taking normal damage from the HMG, makes it useless to use harden then attack. You are only going to use harden to protect you as you run away, total opposite of what you want to happen.
Harden and stomp are not attacks, so the might of the Alien army is nothing more than an average farmers cow, unable to cause any damage to a HA. Devour is the ONLY weapon in the alien armoury useful for taking out HA's. Remove this and not only do you make the onos a useless alien, you take away the only useful weapon against HA. Balanced?? I dont think so.
This is my POV. You stated that people were not reasoning why this is a bad idea, well i am. It makes the onos into an overgrown gorge that cant build.
| QUOTE (Soul Rider @ Nov 4 2004, 09:51 AM) |
| I think the main problem for any idea is how it is translated into normal gameplay. While you have thought this out very thoroughly, there are a few flaws in your plan which i don't feel you have properly considered. 1) What type of games would this work in? Positives and negatives of both pub play (which you seem to have engineered this for) and clan games. You are looking at 2 completely different styles of play. 2) Combat - frowned upon by many, loved by others, regardless of yours or my personal POV about combat, how would this change balance out in combat? Is it still a workable idea in a game that is virtually Team Deathmatch? 3) Implementation, ok i don't expect you to have an understanding of exactly what it takes to program such a change, but is it one that can seriously work? These are a few things that i feel need to be taken into consideration by anyone considering any change to the current system. The main thing is a balance issue, yes my personal opinion is that the onos is not the creature it should be, and currently until at least 2 hive can be taken down by a single clip of HMG, I personally feel this would be an idea that won't translate, but it's only my opinion and i'm sure the powers that be will make up their own minds. For my own case i see the main problem of removing devour to be the following - How the hell do you kill a HA? Charge is useless on ha unless you can control the bloody thing and which way the marines are jumping, which you cant. Gore takes about 6 swipes to kill a HA, in which time they can enter a whole HMG clip of HMG into you and kill you. Doing half the damage for 3 seconds after coming out of harden, while you are still taking normal damage from the HMG, makes it useless to use harden then attack. You are only going to use harden to protect you as you run away, total opposite of what you want to happen. Harden and stomp are not attacks, so the might of the Alien army is nothing more than an average farmers cow, unable to cause any damage to a HA. Devour is the ONLY weapon in the alien armoury useful for taking out HA's. Remove this and not only do you make the onos a useless alien, you take away the only useful weapon against HA. Balanced?? I dont think so. This is my POV. You stated that people were not reasoning why this is a bad idea, well i am. It makes the onos into an overgrown gorge that cant build. |
Thank you for your concerns, and allow me to address them.
1) Clan and pub play are different, but this idea will change both the same way: Encourage more teamwork. Admittedly this will probably affect pubs more than clan play because in clan play there is already a lot of teamwork.
2) In combat, The Onos will be a hard time killing people if it uses harden, but it will also be virtually invincible if coupled with all the defensive upgrades. Imagine an Onos who takes half damage, has 950 points of armor (with each AP being able ot take at least two points of damage), and regenerates 60 armor every second. That said, I don't really care about combat, and if it becomes worse and forces more people to play Classic, so be it.
3) Implementation will be easy. I can already picture the pseudocode, and if I could study the NS source code, I could probably program it myself eventually.
4) It is my intention to make it useless to use Harden and then attack. Why should an Onos be able to enjoy the protection of Harden while running up to a marine and then suffer none of the drawbacks of damage reduction when attacking? It shouldn't. Harden is NOT a direct offensive tool. Here's how you kill a HA. If it is alone, you can probably kill it solo. If not, you need to bring some teammates. You stomp the marines repeatedly, and let your Fade/skulk buddies do the actual attacking while you soak up all the damage. You are a formidable foe when you are working as a team with your teammates, but alone, you will not be the one who conquers all. If the marines don't fire at you, then you can go up and start goring. The marines have to guess, and guess right at the beginning of the battle whether to try to kill you, or your buddies. If they guess right, your buddies can always run, and they certainly can't kill you as you retreat with Harden turned on. If they guess wrong, your buddies will be unharmed as you drain all of the marines' ammo. And don't forget stomp!
TEAMWORK is the weapon that will kill HAs. The HAs have to stick together or they die, and the aliens have to stick together to take them out.
Teamwork to kill one enemy is not a good balance. If you are telling me i have to have another lifeform with me to kill a HA then i wont use onos, it's not worth it, and many others will do the same, and aliens will effectively become a 3 unit army.
It takes 1 hmg'er to kill a level 1 onos. The ono's is the King of the Aliens. For balance it should take 1 Onos to kill a HA the king of the Marines, your plan doesn't allow that to happen. Yes i did read your reply about stomp, but as i said this is a 1 hive onos, just lost second hive, and is trying to take out the HA on his own, as team mates are respawning/elsewhere. He can't under your plan, all he can do is run away. So effectively you have Gorge, builder, not an effective army unit. You have lerk, hehehe against a HA, spores dont work, bite is feeble against the armour. Fade, good fade has a chance against a HA, but has to blink in, away, then back, takes too much time with medspam to take out a HA. Onos unable to take out a HA unless he gets a HA who cant hit an onos from 2 feet, not very likely.
Your plan makes an onos useless. I'm all for change, but the onos must be an equivilent to the HA, not an oversized gorge.
After all a marine gets harden and usaully attack bonus not nerf, normally HA and HMG. Why nerf the attack, i think it would work if it did not affect the attack. Then i would be scared of an onos. follow your train of thought and i'd happily chase the weak onos as a LA with a knife!!!!
It takes 1 hmg'er to kill a level 1 onos. The ono's is the King of the Aliens. For balance it should take 1 Onos to kill a HA the king of the Marines, your plan doesn't allow that to happen. Yes i did read your reply about stomp, but as i said this is a 1 hive onos, just lost second hive, and is trying to take out the HA on his own, as team mates are respawning/elsewhere. He can't under your plan, all he can do is run away. So effectively you have Gorge, builder, not an effective army unit. You have lerk, hehehe against a HA, spores dont work, bite is feeble against the armour. Fade, good fade has a chance against a HA, but has to blink in, away, then back, takes too much time with medspam to take out a HA. Onos unable to take out a HA unless he gets a HA who cant hit an onos from 2 feet, not very likely.
Your plan makes an onos useless. I'm all for change, but the onos must be an equivilent to the HA, not an oversized gorge.
After all a marine gets harden and usaully attack bonus not nerf, normally HA and HMG. Why nerf the attack, i think it would work if it did not affect the attack. Then i would be scared of an onos. follow your train of thought and i'd happily chase the weak onos as a LA with a knife!!!!
| QUOTE (|ds|meatshield @ Nov 4 2004, 12:08 PM) |
| Here's how you kill a HA. If it is alone, you can probably kill it solo. If not, you need to bring some teammates. You stomp the marines repeatedly, and let your Fade/skulk buddies do the actual attacking while you soak up all the damage. You are a formidable foe when you are working as a team with your teammates, but alone, you will not be the one who conquers all. If the marines don't fire at you, then you can go up and start goring. The marines have to guess, and guess right at the beginning of the battle whether to try to kill you, or your buddies. If they guess right, your buddies can always run, and they certainly can't kill you as you retreat with Harden turned on. If they guess wrong, your buddies will be unharmed as you drain all of the marines' ammo. And don't forget stomp! |
So you're suggesting that your teamwork extends to waiting a split second before reacting to Marine fire, as they have to see who the HA (and his buddies) shoot at first. What if they split their fire? They've lost nothing and you will find it very difficult to accomplish either of your strategies. Depending on what Hive you allocated Stomp you may or may not be able to use it.
I like the idea of Armour but I also love Devour, I only think it's range should be decreased as sometimes I get sucked up from miles away. I also don't like the RoF. I'd recommend that Devour is a charge up move so that Onoses will have to work a bit harder to use it, if they miss the first time (I'm sure experienced players don't miss but-) then they've wasted an opportunity and must charge it back up to do it again (1.5 seconds - or is that too short?).
For me Devour represents an HA killer and I just love those moments when your team manages to bail you out and you know that instead of taking a bundle of Marine res, you've taken a bundle of Alien res. I just think that Devour should involve a bit more risk:
Either a charge-up or increase adrenaline use or both to use Devour.
| QUOTE |
| lol. You do know a lot of servers ban you if you disconnect on purpose when being devoured right? |
No, I don't, and truth to tell I don't care. If the admin is foolish enough to ban with such a light excuse, it would only prove that the server has a BAD admin and I wouldn't want to spend my time there in any case. Devour == wastes your time and spoils the end game excitement, encouraging rines just to turtle in their base.
A possible solution to the problem of the Onos not being able to take out a lone HA without devour is by allowing it to charge up gore, and when the +attack button is released having the Onos lunge 10 feet forward extremely fast and hit for a large amount of damage, somewhere in the neighborhood of 250. I'd recommend about a 5 second charge-up time, and a large (40%?) adrenaline cost once the lunge is performed. This is inspired by Halo 2's energy sword. Although devouring hapless Marines is fun, it honestly detracts from the late-game; it's boring to be sitting in a Onos stomach because he charged through your base, snatched you, and ran (with little consequence, unless you've got HA or JP) while he sits next to a trio of DCs without any hope of rescue unless the Onos is particularly stupid. This accomplishes little for the alien team and encourages turtling on the Marine team, a bad situation for everyone.
Harden seems like it could be useful for absorbing large amounts of damage, but I need more detailed information about the rate of adrenaline loss (x swipes, y gores or something) before I can judge whether it would be useful or too powerful.
[edit] Adding a charge-up ability to gore would also require a degree of finesse and handling, something that I believe the Onos is sorely missing as the meatshield among its less clumsy bretheren. [/edit]
Harden seems like it could be useful for absorbing large amounts of damage, but I need more detailed information about the rate of adrenaline loss (x swipes, y gores or something) before I can judge whether it would be useful or too powerful.
[edit] Adding a charge-up ability to gore would also require a degree of finesse and handling, something that I believe the Onos is sorely missing as the meatshield among its less clumsy bretheren. [/edit]
If you are at one hive, and they have HA/HMG, you should not expect to take out more than one HA when alone, even as an Onos. My Onos vision centers around two hives, where it can not only soak up the damage, but also use stomp to help. At one hive, the aliens should die if the marines already teched up to HA.
But, perhaps to help against heavies, maybe the Harden damage penalty could be negated when goring HAs?
Besides, even WITH devour, right now 1 hive Onos have to run from HAs anyways. At one hive, if you're an Onos, that either means your team has failed to protect your second hive, or your team had too many res **** and deserve to lose anyways.
I just really, really hate devour, and I'd rather change something else than have devour.
About having exact numbers, etc. That's up to the PTs to hash out, and I'd even go so far as to make it just stop energy regeneration (by any means, MC or natural) if a constant energy drain prived too hurtful to the Onos.
I like the charge-up gore idea. An Onos can charge up around the corner, (can he hold the cahrge forever?) and then attack once the HA comes around the corner. Give us more on that.
But, perhaps to help against heavies, maybe the Harden damage penalty could be negated when goring HAs?
Besides, even WITH devour, right now 1 hive Onos have to run from HAs anyways. At one hive, if you're an Onos, that either means your team has failed to protect your second hive, or your team had too many res **** and deserve to lose anyways.
I just really, really hate devour, and I'd rather change something else than have devour.
About having exact numbers, etc. That's up to the PTs to hash out, and I'd even go so far as to make it just stop energy regeneration (by any means, MC or natural) if a constant energy drain prived too hurtful to the Onos.
I like the charge-up gore idea. An Onos can charge up around the corner, (can he hold the cahrge forever?) and then attack once the HA comes around the corner. Give us more on that.
To address the damage to HA could you treat the HA armor as a building. The problem in this, that I saw as I typed this post, is that gorges could bile bomb the HAs but with devour removed maybe that would be a good change as well.
As far as reacting to enemy fire as a skulk I tend to wait until i hear gunfire before running in anyways especially if we have Oni and Fades. Also when we have an Onos there is usually a little bit of teamwork and coordination regarding attacks as Oni are so expensive and losing one is bad.
All in all as I said before this will aid alien teamwork and breed a new level of alien players. As it stands you are lucky to get a good alien team because there are a lot of players who do not use their res for the good of the hive. I play on a server that is almost the exact opposite which is not good at all. Having the entire alien team fight over who gets to but the hive up is bad. This would inspire aliens to save for hive then go help the Oni take out HAs.
As far as reacting to enemy fire as a skulk I tend to wait until i hear gunfire before running in anyways especially if we have Oni and Fades. Also when we have an Onos there is usually a little bit of teamwork and coordination regarding attacks as Oni are so expensive and losing one is bad.
All in all as I said before this will aid alien teamwork and breed a new level of alien players. As it stands you are lucky to get a good alien team because there are a lot of players who do not use their res for the good of the hive. I play on a server that is almost the exact opposite which is not good at all. Having the entire alien team fight over who gets to but the hive up is bad. This would inspire aliens to save for hive then go help the Oni take out HAs.
In response to meatshield:
Well, I just thought of it as I was typing that post. I'll try to explain my idea, but I don't really know how much a regular Onos gore does because I just use it, I don't calculate it in-game. So, working from the assumption it does about 150 damage, here, and working from the Gore-Harden-Stomp-Charge skill set:
Charging Time - Damage - Lunge Distance - Recoil Time
1 sec - +30 - 0ft. - 0 secs
2 secs - +60 - 5ft. - 0 secs
3 secs - +80 - 5ft. - 1 sec
4 secs - +95 - 10ft. - 1.75 secs
5 secs - +110 - 10ft. - 2 secs
Again, I don't know how much damage Onos gore initally does (well, I know in-game, but not the exact numbers), nor do I know how well HA absorbs damage.
Anyways, damage estimates aside, a 5 second gore should allow you to instantly kill a level 0 or level 1 Heavy, and severely injure are level 2 or 3. However, the large energy cost and half-second "recoil" time after attacking would make sure the Onos couldn't just run in and kill one person randomly as one could now, with devour. Focus would allow you to kill _anything_ with one hit, and that might be too powerful, but it would certainly make Onos a tank again, only this time with greater offensive capability than defensive.
The charge could be held for 5 seconds after it has peaked, but every second it is held adrenaline is decreased so that executing the attack at 10 seconds would leave you almost completely dry - it will take a good sense of timing to be able to kill a heavy or other Marine and then kill another or use the actual attack charge to get away; you can wait around a corner, but it will decrease your effectiveness.
Also, I think that as the charge builds up to 5 the Onos should growl louder and louder until it's holding at 5, where it would be a steady growl and the Marines would know you're there. This encourages holding off on charging till the last minute.
I also think these changes would make it somewhat easier to down jetpackers if they carelessly get too close to you, and would let you jump up 10ft to meet them. Charged goring could not be performed while you're in the air or do not have your feet on the ground.
As a side benefit silence and focus would become much more appealing to the Onos.
Anyways, that's my idea to make Harden viable and add a fun-to-use skill to the Onos, which I feel it is lacking sorely.
Well, I just thought of it as I was typing that post. I'll try to explain my idea, but I don't really know how much a regular Onos gore does because I just use it, I don't calculate it in-game. So, working from the assumption it does about 150 damage, here, and working from the Gore-Harden-Stomp-Charge skill set:
Charging Time - Damage - Lunge Distance - Recoil Time
1 sec - +30 - 0ft. - 0 secs
2 secs - +60 - 5ft. - 0 secs
3 secs - +80 - 5ft. - 1 sec
4 secs - +95 - 10ft. - 1.75 secs
5 secs - +110 - 10ft. - 2 secs
Again, I don't know how much damage Onos gore initally does (well, I know in-game, but not the exact numbers), nor do I know how well HA absorbs damage.
Anyways, damage estimates aside, a 5 second gore should allow you to instantly kill a level 0 or level 1 Heavy, and severely injure are level 2 or 3. However, the large energy cost and half-second "recoil" time after attacking would make sure the Onos couldn't just run in and kill one person randomly as one could now, with devour. Focus would allow you to kill _anything_ with one hit, and that might be too powerful, but it would certainly make Onos a tank again, only this time with greater offensive capability than defensive.
The charge could be held for 5 seconds after it has peaked, but every second it is held adrenaline is decreased so that executing the attack at 10 seconds would leave you almost completely dry - it will take a good sense of timing to be able to kill a heavy or other Marine and then kill another or use the actual attack charge to get away; you can wait around a corner, but it will decrease your effectiveness.
Also, I think that as the charge builds up to 5 the Onos should growl louder and louder until it's holding at 5, where it would be a steady growl and the Marines would know you're there. This encourages holding off on charging till the last minute.
I also think these changes would make it somewhat easier to down jetpackers if they carelessly get too close to you, and would let you jump up 10ft to meet them. Charged goring could not be performed while you're in the air or do not have your feet on the ground.
As a side benefit silence and focus would become much more appealing to the Onos.
Anyways, that's my idea to make Harden viable and add a fun-to-use skill to the Onos, which I feel it is lacking sorely.
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