Aliens don't come in enough varieties. they aren't unique from one fade to the next. While there isn't a tangible problem here, there is an issue of replay-ability.

lets start slow.

You're an onos. You want carapace so you pay your resources, gestate, and you get carpace level 3, assuming your team has enough chambers. What if you wanted... carapace and redemption? What if you were able to get: 2 levels in carapace and 1 level of redemption? Kickass, i know. Unbalanced? yeah, for now.

alright, out of the sandbox.

Hive1: aliens have 3 levels to spend
Hive2: aliens have 6 levels to spend
Hive3: aliens have 9 levels to spend

Every time you select a trait, you get 1 level of it and gestate for 1 or 2 seconds. To get the full 3 level effect, select it 3 times. You can put levels into ANY trait that you want, up to 3 levels, provided your team has enough of the chamber

Costs/Logistics/Miscelaneous/The innards that make an idea work and not suck

- To recieve the FIRST level of any trait, it costs 2 resource points. This means that if you want 1 level of carapace or 3 levels, it costs the same: 2 points. If you want to go crazy and get 1 level into every trait at hive3 it would cost you 18 resource points.
- Your team has to have the corresponding chamber type and number of chambers. For real potential, chambers would be unchained.
- Diminishing returns. The first level of every trait should have an increased effect, each subsequent level should have a reduced effect. This makes it worthwhile, in some cases, to spend 6 resource points to get 1 level in 3 different traits.
- Skulks do not have to pay any resource points for their upgrades, or have to pay a very reduced amount.
- When changing lifeforms you lose all upgrades.
- The purpose of this change is to allow each player to pick a combination of traits, adding more variety, uniqueness, and fun.

This is a pretty radical change to NS. It throws a lot of things out of balance. This is not something that is even concievable for the next version or build. Even with 100% community backing, this couldn't be balanced and implemented within a year. Don't worry, i know.

It's just a suggestion and idea. I like NS, I want to see thousands more players brought into the fold. We're going to hit a brick wall eventually. Look at marine weapons, I can't think of any niche that hasn't been filled; what could you possibly add (aside from a flamethrower)? I don't want that to happen to the rest of NS. It's the small things like DMS and armor1 syndrome that add up to kill a game in the long term. Radical changes HAVE to come about eventually.

So what do you think? This idea is intended to bring an entirely new level of variety to the alien game. Not dominance, just variety. Think in the long term; eventually we may want to add new traits to the game. Having a versatile system like this would make added traits flexible and more accessible. Perhaps in addition to the 3 standard traits provided by each chamber, there is a 4th trait that only has 1 level, but a very unique effect. Some traits can be limited in the number of levels. Some traits could exceed 3 levels. Someday we might have level6 Carapace! Possibilities!

How can I improve this idea? That's where you come in. I take pride in my posts. I think about what i'm writing. Please read all of it if you want me to read all of yours.
Put the fear back in NS.


~~~ Update: Some Elaboration
Since there is some interest in the idea i'm going to elaborate on a few of the less clear aspects.

Diminishing returns: For this idea to work, the first level of every trait must have some use at level1. Regeneration, cloaking, and focus are all not worth getting as just level1 traits. At least, the way they are now. A boost is required.

Currently, level 3 carapace gives a fade an additional 100 armor. Using a system of diminishing returns:
Level 1 carapace would grant 50 armor, levels 2 and 3 would each grant an additional 25 armor. Level1 gave as much armor as the other two levels combined.
Those numbers are just an example of what i'm aiming for with this idea.

Taking the idea further. I mentioned above that in the future, we might want some traits to exceed the current 3 level max, while some traits could be restricted to 1 level.

One trait that might be restricted is Focus. It's a good candidate for a 1 or 2 level trait because it would be very difficult to balance it for 3 individual levels. A mid level focus may not make any difference in the number of hits it takes to kill a marine, but would still slow your attack down. Think: Level1 focus against armor1 and2 marines. At level1 it would be 30% damage increase for a 25% reduction in rate of fire. At level2 it would be the same as full power focus is now. Again, those are just examples.

The one trait that would make the most sense to be able to exceed 3 levels is carapace. What if you could, if you wanted to, put 6 levels into carapace? First, you'd have to have two hives so that you have 6 levels to distribute in the first place. Then you'd have to have 6 defense chambers. The marines have just gotten their hands on shotguns? Consider sacrificing a level of adrenaline or celerity for another layer of armor, it could save your life.

Of course, level 6 carapace is something that would be considered and tested after the initial idea of versatile upgrades. One step at a time.

Don't let the examples turn you off to the idea. They are just there to clarify. Keep the posts coming, i like defending my idea.

~~~ Update: Clarifying some more things, adding more restrictions
Having 3 defense chambers lets you get three levels TOTAL in the defense branch. For example:

If you want level3 carapace and level3 regeneration, you would need:
2 Hives
6 Defense chambers
4 Resource points spent on upgrades

If you want level2 carapace, level3 regeneration, and level1 redemption, you would need:
2 Hives
6 Defense chambers
6 Resource points spent on upgrades

Those examples illustrate the restrictions (cost and chambers) that hopefully make this a little less overpowering. A potential change in the future, should this seem to powerful to most of you, is increasing the cost of any traits beyond the first one:
The first trait costs 2 resource points. Any additional traits cost 3 resource ponts.

So now, if you want level2 carapace, level3 regeneration, and level1 redemption you would need:
2 Hives
6 Defense chambers
8 Resource points spent on upgrades.

Even for a fade, having to pay 8 resources will make it blink, lame pun intended.

~~~ Update: Mostly about losing hives and chambers

Thanks to Kwil for bringing up these issues... and managing to keep me up at 4am.

What happens if you lose a hive or chambers?
Lets say you have 4 upgrades from the defense branch. The marines take out a few of your chambers and you're down to three defense chambers. You will lose the last upgrade that you selected from the defense branch. If you continue to lose chambers, it will continue to rollback your upgrades one by one.

Of course, since some of your levels have been rolled back, you now have more points to distribute again. You may have gone from 4 defense chambers to 3 defense chambers, but you might still have movement and sensory chambers and you could now spend those points there.

Now, the loss of a hive is trickier. With this system, the loss of a hive would NOT rollback any upgrades that you already picked. You would keep what you had.

Assume you have 6 levels of upgrades. You go from 2 hives down to 1 hive. The number of levels you can distribute has gone down from 6 to 3, but you will not lose any levels that you already have. However, should some of your levels be rolled back due to chamber loss, you would not get those points back until you were rolled back to below three levels of upgrades.

ok, im a little confused.

this is almost like a semi combat style upgrade system for NS.

you have 3 hives. 3 of each chamber.

whatever lifeform, 100 res.


i want, carapace2, and regen1. so, thats my 3 defense chambers.

i want scent of fear2, and focus1. tehres 3 SC.

i want celerity2, adren1. tehres 3


thats how it works?

and, you want the FIRST level to be better than the 2nd and 3rd? i dont like that.

i think it should increase in cost, and increase in value as you get more levels. some sort of sliding ratio scale...

and the skulk not paying, i really dont like that. too many uber skulks.

all in all, not a bad idea, but i think you may recieve a lot of "go back to combat if you want to have regen/cara" and stuff like that.

because, this would end up having to revamp your levels of upgrades, too.
like you said, its a pretty big change. but, changes can be good too, cause they can then bring out other ideas.

so, i say. "maybe kinda, sure"

I know it sounds like combat, but only on paper... trust me. Don't worry about the balance, just focus on the idea. I shouldn't have to say that since this makes upgrades more powerful, the basic lifeforms themselves would have to be toned down.

There's no limit on how many upgrades you can have from any one chamber. If you did have three hives, you could put all your 9 levels into the defense branch. This can be changed to be more restrictive, but the whole point of the idea is to give more choices to the alien player.

Skulks get the upgrades free. No, there won't be uber skulks because the alien team will not always have three hives:

At one hive/set of chambers, a current skulk can get 3 levels into 1 trait. Using this system, a skulk could have three very dumbed down traits, or one strong and one dumbed down trait, or the regular, one full strength trait.

On diminishing returns. Having carapace 2 or 3 WILL be greater than having carapace 1. The difference between the levels won't be as signifigant:

just to throw an example out:
Carapace1: 20 armor
Carapace2: 30 armor
Carapace3: 35 armor

The most bang for your buck comes from the first level, not the additional levels. This is neccesary for this idea to work. Having level1 of the CURRENT regeneration trait would be nearly useless. It would be incredibly slow. There would be no point. If the first level were to be improved, then it would become an option to have just the one level invested in the trait.

If the first level of every trait is increased in effect, while the other levels have diminishing returns, then it would make sense in some cases to get levels in a variety of traits instead of putting them all into one trait.

The downside is that, if you aren't a skulk, you have to pay 2 resource points for each trait, NOT each level of a trait. So again, having carapace1, 2, or 3 would cost the same: 2 points. Having carapace1, regeneration1, and redemption1, would cost 6 resource points.

I know that this could lead to powerful aliens. I don't want you guys to worry about balance issues, just the idea itself.

Assume that it is already balanced, would you rather play with this system or with what we have?

Thats probably one of the most interesting ideas I've come across here...and it really isn't that much like combat - obviously there are res penalties if you want to be an uber-skulk.

I'm glad you mentioned limits per hive, because otherwise you'd have people investing all their starting res into upgrades and becoming unstoppable lol. I think it would work with chained chambers, just not as well. Being able to have redemption and carapace at hive one would be excellent lol...this'll give the Kharaa a much needed boost methinks

The plus point for me is being able to have Cloaking AND Scent of Fear as a gorge when we have Sensory Chambers. I have to decide one or the other, so I can keep out of the Marines' way when necessary.

This kinda takes a plus side of Combat and sticks it in Classic - I like it. Kharaa were never meant to have so many upgrades from the same 'tree', but they do in Combat so why not Classic. This still requires thinking, as Classic should, and creates more fun and possibilities for the Kharaa - and more for the Marines to worry about...

Sounds good atm, I'm sure people will make additions to your idea soon

This has been suggested before. It's an interesting idea that's worth playtesting.

Glad you like it Aliencow.

There are a lot of combinations that can suit a good variety of players:

Some players don't like celerity as a skulk because they move too fast and are hard to control, those players could put one or two points into celerity instead of the full three and then have a point in another trait.

Almost every alien would benefit from one level in scent of fear and would be willing to sacrifice a level elsewhere

1 level of cloaking for 90% invisibility would assist in ambushing greatly, while still leaving you 2 points to spend elsewhere, maybe silence.

plenty of possiblities.

Sorry theclam. I didn't bother searching for this because I didn't know what to search for. I also assumed that there would be enough that is unique in my idea to warrant its own thread.

This has been mentioned before, and is usually shot down because one level of anything is pretty much crap, and two not much better. It's only at three that things become worthwhile. But if the main boost of an upgrade came at level 1, I could see it making some sense. This is not a bad idea.

This looks almost exactly like this idea I posted a little while ago...

I still like the idea, but don't know what to do about balancing the Focus/Cloaking combo...(I suppose you can still get focus and sit near a sens chamber, but this would let you go anywhere...and near the chamber, you can actually run up to the guy instead of walking...maybe its not so bad after all)

Edit: the point is, that while level 1-2 of whatever may be useless on its own, you can combine 2 different skills. I dont see lv 2 regen/lv 1 cara necessarily being worse than lv 3 regen...in fact it could be an advantage in certain cases...

Again, the system of diminishing returns. This works only if the first level of a trait gives you the biggest boost.

I'd go as far as to say that the first level of a skill should give you a full 50% of the level3 effect you have now:

Carapace on a fade currently gives it an additional 100 armor. Carapace level 1 should grant 50 armor, while levels 2 and 3 grant 25 armor each.

Some abilities would obviously need tweaking. Cloaking for example. Level1 should grant 90% invisibility, this won't let you ambush in an open room, but it will greatly assist you in a regular ambush. Levels2 and 3 would bring your cloaking close to, if not, 100%. Please don't post regarding those cloaking numbers alone, i'm just throwing them out there as an example.

Focus is another exception. I don't know the thresholds, but level1 and 2 focus may very well be useless if they don't allow you to kill marines in 1 or 2 fewer hits. It would need to be tweaked.

The point is that the first level of a lot of the traits must be improved for this idea to have any chance of working.

Even with boosted 1st levels, there is still incentive to avoid putting one point in as many traits as your number of hives allows. It costs 2 resource for each unique trait. Getting the 2nd and 3rd level of a trait is free.

Sithlord1234, sorry, our ideas are very similar. I think i've done a pretty good job thinking out a system of diminishing returns and resource costs, well enough that my idea still belongs in its own thread.

Just like you, i was too lazy/didn't know what to search for

~~Added some information to the first post

I'm not so sure the level 1-2 skills really need such a buff, TBH...it's not like the third level of a skill is incredibly powerful compared to lv. 2 - people just notice it because they want the maximum effect for their upgrades...

I guess what i'm saying is we dont want to beef up the level 1-2 upgrades so much that it's no longer worthwhile to get the lv 3 upgrade...I'm not opposed to a slight buff, but I think 50% would be a bit too much for the first upgrade



On another note, did you intend to let people spend their 9 points in whatever category they want? If this is what you meant it may beef the aliens too much, as an onos could get level 3 cara AND regen, level 2 celerity, lv 1 SOF (or something like that). Besides, why would getting movement chambers with the second hive allow you to put extra points into defense upgrades? I think it's best if we limit the max points per upgrade category to 3 for now. Maybe, if this gets implemented someday, we can discuss spreading the upgrade points around, but for now we ought to keep the idea simple

Level1 regeneration would be nearly useless as it is now. It would have to be boosted. Cloaking as well, as anything less than 90% cloaking would be useless. Well, in my opinion at least.

You're right about it being overpowered sithlord1234... though in your example, for an onos to have lvl3 regen, lvl3 carapace, lvl2 celerity, and lvl1 SoF you would need:

3 hives
3 Defense chambers
2 Movement chambers
1 Sensory chamber
8 resource points spent on upgrades

It requires three hives, I can honestly say that I think that's an appropriate reward for aliens having built the 3rd hive.

You have a point though, at hive 2, a level3 carapace level3 regeneration onos is possible. I've been thinking about that and decided on a way to add more restrictions while still making the whole concept possible:

For each level of a trait from the defense branch, you require 1 defense chamber. If you had 5 levels of traits all in the defense branch, you would require 5 defense chambers. The way it is now, you just need 3 defense chambers and any defense traits can be gotten up to level 3. With this more restrictive system...

Looking at your example again, with the more restrictive system. A level3 carapace, level3 regeneration, level2 celerity, level1 SoF onos would require:
3 hives
6 Defense chambers
2 Movement chambers
1 Sensory chamber
8 resource points spent on upgrades

Again, with the 3 hive requirement, and double the number of defense chambers, I don't think this is overpowered at all.

Also, let me re-state, since this system does help aliens a lot, the base lifeforms themselves would almost certainly have to be nerfed.

Addding more info to the main post. since you insist on bringing balance into this

Set cloaking not so that it makes you more or less cloaked, but so that more chambers = higher speed to remain cloaked, less time at that speed to cloak. At one chamber, you basically have to be still. At two chambers it's take three steps and stop for a second. Only at three chambers would you be able to walk normally.

As for the idea, it's interesting.

What happens when marines knock out the third DC?
Or one of the hives?

Do you keep the upgrades you've got until you die? If not, which ones go? Does the game have to remember the order you took them in?

I don't want to commit to anything on cloaking right now since it's likely to be changed in the next beta or build.

Your questions are very valid Kwil.

Lets say you have 4 upgrades from the defense branch. The marines take out a few of your chambers and you're down to three defense chambers. You will lose the last upgrade that you selected from the defense branch. If you continue to lose chambers, it will continue to rollback your upgrades one by one.

Of course, since some of your levels have been rolled back, you now have more points to distribute again. You may have gone from 4 defense chambers to 3 defense chambers, but you might still have movement and sensory chambers and you could now spend those points there.

Now, the loss of a hive is trickier. With this system, the loss of a hive would NOT rollback any upgrades that you already picked. You would keep what you had.

Assume you have 6 levels of upgrades. You go from 2 hives down to 1 hive. The number of levels you can distribute has gone down from 6 to 3, but you will not lose any levels that you already have.

Should you die or change lifeforms, you will have lost your upgrades, and will be restricted to having 3 upgrades again.

Should the previous scenario happen, and some of your upgrades be rolled back due to chamber loss, you will not get those points back until you're pushed below 3 levels again.

The advantage that the current system gives aliens is that as long as they have a full set of each chamber type, they can evolve those traits: regardless of how many hives they have. This system is much more hive dependant. You could have 20 of each chamber type, but if you have only one hive, you are restricted to three levels.

Adding some of this information to the main post

The idea could work with that new restriction, but I still think that, for now, we should push for the simpler idea - 3 points per chamber type max, no matter what - this idea is both easier to implement and to balance, and therefore stands a better chance to make it into the game at some point.

The other modifications, IMO, are too radical to go in anytime soon (all at once, anyway), but if the simple idea can get put in, the other changes will not be such a large step, and can ultimately be handled with better judgement.

Baby steps, my friend, baby steps. If you try to make sweeping changes all at once you will most likely fail. Start small and go from there...etc. etc. etc. On the other hand, threads like this are excellent for brainstorming - they help people get a sense of where the game may head in the future...

I dont want to throw away the ideas in this thread, but it's becoming too complicated. Maybe (with Zunni's permission) we should start a new thread, but keep it limited to the "simple" version of the idea (goes back to other thread to see if it could be salvaged for this purpose)

You're right, it's far too complicated to implement anytime soon, but again, I think we're going to hit a brick wall eventually. I like to think that this idea could become a valid "Next Level" for NS.

I still want to keep working on the mechanics of the idea; like you said, this is great for brainstorming.