Vents offer the aliens a range of tactical advantages. Many maps are designed with vents to allow the aliens to move about the map at ease and set up ambushes. However, this all changes at a certain stage of the game, namely when jetpacks show up. Suddenly vents are no longer safe passageways for aliens; they instead become marine highways to hives. OC bloackades are rendered pointless as they can simply be bypassed. Worse still, vent marines with shotguns or hmgs are very hard to take down, as aliens must charge directly at them down enclosed long spaces.

However, there is another problem. Many maps have hive locations where the hive is a short distance away from the ceiling. Usually this provides gorges with a safe little cubby hole to heal the hive from, but when jetpackers arive, it provides the marines with a fantastic place to pump point-blank shots into the hive. Combined with a shotgun, this can be devestating.

My suggestion is thus as follows: when a marine is equipped with a jetpack, remove the ability for him to crouch. From a realistic viewpoint, it does look quite bizzare to see a crouching marine speed along a vent. From a gameplay perspective, I think this would make jetpacks a little more balanced.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Good idea. I personally think that the JP fuel should be reduced a lot as well. Now the JP can be used constantly, which makes hardly any sense and is way unbalanced as well.

Maybe... how about you couldn't use the jet as long as you're crouching, instead? Then you couldn't speed along vents at stupid speeds, and it would be about as hard to get on top of the hive as it is for a skulk, yet you would be able to get into vents. With a bit of effort at least.

On some maps its important for marines to use vents :/

If they can get into the vents the aliens can just drop their chambers and stuff in there and marines will never be able to reach it without boosting.

This would lead to that ns would turn into cs with everyone running around boosting people and making ladders with mines.

JP is overpowered right now. Any ideas to balance it has my Thumbs Ups!

I agree the JP needs some work, but taking away crouch isn't the answer. The quickest fix for a late game vent camping gorge is JPing into the vent. Maps are designed with the idea that JPers will be able to get into vents. It's a top tier marine tech that requires a sizable res investment and a good deal of time to get. There's no reason it shouldn't give marines access to vents that aliens have access to the moment the game starts.

I'm not opposed to making it so once you have entered a vent and cannot stand, your JP cannot be used.. This means that if you are in a vent with up/down passages, you can stand and then jp up to the next vent.

I'm not opposed to marines in vents but agree there should be some draw-back from having this occur.

To assist in balancing this, I suggest a slight speed increase (say 10%) of moving while in the vent.

My thoughts are that (for story reasons) the thrust expelled from the back of the jet pack is hot and by using it in a confined space it would build up and overheat the jet pack as the out put nozzle is basically touching the floor this wound mean that once the marine could stand up in a vertical vent the system could be used again

what do u think

I don't see a big problem with JPs in vents. If anything, its easier for the aliens to deal with JPs in vents, than in a normal room. A skulk just around the corner in a vent can usually destroy at least one JP easily. It's also easier to spore a vent than it is to spore a JP in a hallway. If JP can't go in vents, or can't move in vents at any speed, then the aliens have a huge advantage.

Imagine a lerk in a vent in marine start. If he's any good and the vent is of an appreciable size, then he will be able to avoid any grenades that are lobbed in the vent.
While the grenades are a deterent, he can just go away until the GLer is out of base, and start sporing the base again. The only way to get him out is a JP. If a marine could fly into a vent, but has to walk (while crouching) while he's in the vent, then the lerk will be able to escape easily.

I do agree that JP are overpowered, but I don't think the removing ability to fly through vents is a good solution.

This isn't the way to balance jetpacks.. I personally liked the fuel cell idea someone mentioned and zunni locked right away...

Prodigy, link me..

The whole point of vents was to have a place where aliens could be crafty and sneaky NOT be a place where JP's zip through at 100 mph...

It's supposed to be alien domain, perhaps that's why marines shouldn't have as easy a time with it.. But I dunno..

Marines are currently kings of the vent if they can get in there.

Skulk: Can't dodge anything inside a vent.

Gorge: Web is good, but hive 3.

Lerk: Loses ALL momentum if it as much as touches the vent floor in a millisecond, which is hard to avoid when trying to dodge bullets and bite at the same time, plus the very low ceilings in vents.

Fades: For some wierd reason, devs altered blink to press you upwards which completely screws blinking inside vents. You end up blinkin only a couple of meters before you run out of adrenaline.

Onos: Can you believe me? I'm too lazy to even talk about onos' vent cleaning abilites.

Crouch shouldn't be disabled with a jp on.

Vents should remain a alien highway. Vents around a hive are crucial for flanking marine siege bases.

Personally ... I don't think marines should use vents because it takes a tactical advantage that the aliens need to use.

How it's done? Maybe a special invisable brush that prevents marines from passing through? I don't think this is good since gorges are stupid in vents.

I really don't know.

as a marine i can testify to sucking at shooting, so i camp vents and just aim in a general direction Not like aliens can dodge in a vent after all. Unless a fade comes after me, and i lack a lvl 3 shotgun, nothing but my own stupidity can remove me from said vent.
Therefor, giving marines total acces to vents at any point in the game makes the marine team almost unkillable. Ever relocate to that one room over Atmosphere? think it;s called Corridor Q. Relocating there insures at least a 3 hour end game even if the marines have NO nodes.

This is the worst idea I've ever heard. It would take alot of the skill and fun out of jetpacks.

Jetpacks are about lightning attacks on the hive, and speed. If you took away the jetpackers ability to crouch or move fast, you would lose alot of the jp's advantages. If it wasn't for crouch i'd get stuck alot as a jp'er, on walls and roofs and stuff, reducing the jetpacks mobility is definately not the way to go. Jetpacks are useful because they go fast, they are relatively easy to kill once they come into confrontation with the alien team.

that point begs another question that is off topic- what advantage does the alien team have that the marines don't or can completely negate?

A fault in your argument Phues_ By making the jetpacks less manuverable you add the need for skill in thier use. The concept of what is fun is debateable as well, but i will grant you that from the marine perspective winning is the cuase for playing, so any advantage to you winning is good and can be then argued as 'fun' since you enjoy it.

Crouching is the key to jetpack mobility. Jetpacks would simply be a tool to fly into the air out of Onos range for a few moments instead of the speedy transport they are now. Go ahed. Try to zip from Marine Start to, Reactor Room on ns_tanith without crouching and without ever touching the floor or ceiling. You can't do it. Now try it while crouching. Eeeeh? You see this, now?

As for removing marine access to vents.. just because the jetpacker is in a crouched animation with half of his head through the ceiling doesnt mean its like that realistically. He could be laying prone and crawling across on his belly, but there's just no animations for that. Denying marines access to Vents just because they have a jetpack is silly. It's one of the few ways to actually get up there (sometimes the only way) and again, jetpacks are designed for mobility. Vents = mobility and speed. You can easily kill a jetpacker in a vent if you come around from a corner. There's no where for him to go, so provided you get the jump.. yea.

This also prevents Gorges from building alot of end-game hiding spots that would normally have to be naded (sometimes impossible) or sieged out. With jetpacks, just go in there yourself and knife the bugger.

*Vote no*

How about remove Jet Pack flight ability while crouching?

At stand, a jet packer can jump around as norm, and during flight, cannot crouch.

When crouching, the jet pack can't be used.

You can still get into vents, just jet up to the ceiling where the vent is, hold the crouch key and foreward, and let go of the thrust, and you'll get right in. Once inside, you're a slooooow jp marine though(can't jet around).

Not to mention that it would help aliens bite those crouching marines jumpign around the hive...

i do like a couple of the ideas where you cant use your jps in the vent, but the only problem with that, is you have to crouch to get in the vent, so you would have to be kinda crafty to get your shot right, otherwise, when you duck, your jp dies, you fall, waste time trying again...

i cant remember what map it is, but i was constantly annoyed in one vent because not only is there a hill that goes up and down, but tehres crap on the ceiling that when your lerk/jp you hit it when you fly across the ceiling.. that would be another quick fix... im not all that familiar with mapping, but you guys seem to do a good deal of changes with the maps on every new release...

as for the vents being the aliens domain, i dont like that idea, because thats a somewhat large advantage for the aliens on every map. you would then have to balance it back out somehow because like 10% of every map, the marines just plain could not use.

why not just a simple thing to block the vents, like a special vent webbing, or some wierd structure that the marines have to get rid of first?

i dont know. i think that disallowing marines to use vents is a bit drastic, but disallowing them to use jps in vents isnt too bad, because as someone mentioned before, its kind of a wierd situation with any creature minus the skulk to be in the vents, and still function properly.

I definately vote yes for Jetpackers not able to fly when in a vent.
Great idea Zunni! Why has nobody ever thought about that?

Its one of those small changes nobody thinks about, but have grat impact.

It would still allow JPs to reach certain spots ( Redroom at great Viaduct hive...)
but would slow them down considerably.

However, it must be desinged so they still can use it in case the vent leads upwards. Either relate it to crouching, so as soon as the marine is able to stand he can jump upwards to reach the next vent, or "ladders" must be implemented on such spots.

Both ways, I guess its dependant on the mappers to make it work.

Overall, I really like that, as it makes sneaky ventcampers more vulnerabe and less map dominating. Also, it gives you the feelings Bishop might have had when robbing to the commstation....in case he were a human.

Well, JPs will have ot become a hell of a lot cheaper than it is now to justify such a nerf. Mayb the fuel should be reduced somewhat instead.

I personally think that the acces to vents with the help of jp/mine ladder/ rine ladder should be restricted.

Especially cause there are 2 offical maps out there, who feature a weldable vent, that directly leads into rine ms.

I do the following from time to time, just to see if someone has found a method to beat it.

Hold 4 RT and tech up till HA now save. Once you have enough res hand out HA/HMG/SG/WELDER/MINES. Next thing is to place an armory in the vent you want to hide, as well as an armslab if it fits. Now move your HA train into the vent.

Thats 8 HA sitting in a small vent with only 1 entrance. With the help of armory and weapong throwing the lead ha will always be supplied with a fully loaded waepon. Skulks die to easy, lerks cant spore HA, Fades only get close if more than 4 enter the vent at the same time.

These hideout games usually end up with aliens hitting f4.


--> Marines should stay out of vents.

I don't know what the JP bar is meant to be showing at the moment (I'm guessing some sort of rechargeable fuel). Maybe you don't need to bother changing when a Marine can use his JP, just change how long he can do this.

Someone in this thread mentioned the physics of travelling through a vent, where the JetPack overheats because of the confined space and is rendered unusable.

Why not make the JetPack energy bar represent heat?

If this was so then the JP would overheat more quickly in a vent, reducing the Marine advantage in an area which is supposed to be for Alien use. It could be quicker than crouched movement, but slower than Mach II.

I'm personally against having to make Marines stand to use a JP because it seriously minimalises a mapper's destinational, directional and structural choices for vent layout.

Do I hear Yeas or Nays?

You'd have to make jetpacks alot cheaper, like 5 res, if you removied the ability to crouch. It would be a serious nerf (in the hands of people who are adept at using jetpacks anyway).

I'm all in favor of the heat idea.
This would also get rid of that nagging question, "Why does my jetpack only refuel when my feet are on the ground?"

Jetpack on, heat rises.
Jetpack off, heat dissipates.
Heat hits top, jetpack goes off until all heat is gone.
Marine in open, heat goes up medium, goes down fast.
Marine in crawlspace (ie, can't stand) heat goes up fast, goes down slow.
Marine in umbra, heat goes up fast, goes down medium.
Marine in water, heat goes up slow, goes down fast.

Marine JP speed stays just the same or perhaps could even be increased slightly to compensate. Marine JP lift is increased.

This would add considerable tactics to the jetpack. The good flyer would use it much like a flying blink. Instead of leaning on it, they'd tap it. They'd be able to get in vents just fine, but not whistle down them like the breeze. They could fly through the open areas the same as the do now, whether crouched or not. And they could just zip through water filled tunnels.

i simply think u shouldnt b able to +jump for as long as u r ducked(if equipped with jp)
so u r able to get into vents, but cant fly in

Hmm... I like this idea, and some of the ideas seem almost close to ideal.

However, I don't really see how the JP bar as heat idea would work without straining the server too much. I don't really think there's a way to mark an area as a vent without using entities, which just places a whole lot of restrictions on mappers as they would have to use up entities on vents, which means either bye bye vents or bye bye nifty map features.

The other way to see if the JP'er is in an enclosed space would be pretty stressful to the server methinks. You'd have to be tracing say 6 axis's around the JP'er and seeing how much space is around him. This is just pure conjecture on my part though.

I do like the idea of not being able to JP when you're crouching though. The implementation as I see it is that you're able to fire off your jetpack only when you're standing up. While in midflight, you can crouch, however, crouching would cut off your JP after a second or two.

The delay in cutting off your JP would be to allow marines to still navigate vents which go up. So say the next level of the vent is just above the marines head when he's standing up. The marine would stand up, hit his JP and crouch. The delay would let him boost himself up to the ledge.

Also, when a JP marine hits jump while crouched, he would just jump normally instead of engaging the JP. There might be some situations where this would be necessary after all like when marine is unable to stand but still needs a small boost.

Not sure about the coding requirements, after all, there's already something in the code that tells the game "you can't stand up here". When that condition is in effect, have it apply the "high heat" condition to the jetpack as well.

I am one of the bastards who loves to hug vents and zip through them @ 100mph.

But serious, we should indeed do something to not nerf JP to much then. maybe slow speed down in vents, but sure hell not disable all together.

!!! SPOILER ALERT - ALIENS 2 !!!
Ever watched Aliens 2? Close to the end, when they crawl through the vents to escape from the WarriorAliens, the TomBoy of a Girl and her closed "Combat-Brother" joined together cause they couldn't make it in any way - they took a grenate and *bewm* Flash over of doom! I'd say that the jetpack produces some of this, too - if you fire a jp in a vent, it would create a very hot (even possible to say) plasmalike atmosphere in that vent, hurting yourself...
so, if you have support by a comm (or restock), you would be able to go through a vent, but not speeding around in it like "John - the sewer worker" in his subterran pipes with his speedboat...
Maybe beeing able to keep off aliens, too - cause of that heat bubble - but not a mafia drive by with your jp...

Jetpack are an intermediate-to-late game tech item that costs lots of res if you plan on equipping any number of Marines with them. They should grant access to all vents, if not superiority. While I personally do not think jetpacks need to be nerfed (I can take any jetpacker I meet down as a leaping Skulk, a Lerk, or with a bit of difficulty as a Fade), I think the worst that should be allowed is decreasing the JP user's crouched speed in vents to that of a standing light Marine.

Jetpacks force aliens to change tactics and are an integral part of NS when they are used in vents. I think they are fine.

On the other hand, I actually like the idea of going from fuel to heat monitoring. It would be awesome if your jetpack started out at normal speed, got a bit faster mid way up the heat bar, and started sputtering and behaving erratically when heat got very high-to-critical (a.k.a. no fuel). This would add a new dynamic to JP'ing that would add some unique fun to the Marine team that is normally reserved for aliens and make handling of JPs much harder to master but more powerful if you do. It would be pretty funny to see a noob JP'er explode for a tiny amount of damage to those around him while holding down the thruster after he is on the ground and overheated.

Not to mention seeing him fall out the sky and seeing a "killed by worldspawn" icon and his name on your hud. ;D

then any water would need to cool down the jp faster like the ice- & waterworlds in tribes do.

bad idea, jp'ing is supposed to be one of those skills u can always get better at... if it needs balancing then produce something nifty like the fuel tank has to be refilled manually after somethingsomething

In the early game vents are supposed to allow Aliens alternative paths to different areas of the map (especially Hives and choke points). The main problem I see with the Jetpack is their insane speed in vents, I'm fine with everything else.

The problem is that once Marines get JPs the area that the Aliens once had dominance has been COMPLETELY reversed. I don't have a problem with Marines accessing vents, in fact I encourage the idea, but the problem is that JPs in vents have 2 major advantages: speed and long distance attacks.

At the moment the JP is the fastest thing in a vent (if we're talking standard height vents). So once Marines have JPs the vents have become an area where offensive Alien classes have lost their advantage over Marines, their speed. However at the same time Aliens are still subject to the Marines advantage of long ranged attacks, in areas which are often just long, enclosed spaces with one entrance, one exit and no space to dodge or take cover from gunfire.

With the heat idea I was proposing that in the vents JPers could still manouvre but it would be more a case of fast but temporary movement, short bursts of the engine so that it doesn't overheat. I suppose with the right timing (skill, experience dependant) you could cruise at an overall faster speed through a vent (but not as fast as you can now), tapping the jump button to maintain a decent speed.

The best idea (suggested so far) for implementing this would be that the heat bar rises faster when you're crouched, meaning that in vents you must use a technique to quickly traverse the map.

The other reason that the JP must be slowed down in vents is that with JPs vents allow Marines to move as quickly (on some maps more so) as the Aliens, somewhat nerfing their speed 'advantage'. This change wouldn't destroy the Marines' chances of using vents to access key map locations quickly is would just go towards evening things up in the vents.

Overheating:
I see 3 options for overheating.
1. At limit jetpack explodes and is lost, dealing damage to player and subsequent fall damage if applicable
2. At limit jetpack cuts out and cannot be used until it has cooled off to a specific heat limit (determined by Devs, PTs). Fall damage is dealt if applicable
3. At the limit jetpack begins to deal rapid damage to player and the speed decreases gradually (is that right?)

I look forward to hearing your preferences with reasons...

The third one is the best imo - because of that insane vent zippers that speed through a realy tight vent, pop up at the hive, fly 3, 4, 5 circles around it pumping it up with sg lead and vanishing in the vent on the opposite wall of the room...

I liked bits of all 3 ideas but I can see that the first one would be impracticle for noobs and just end up in JPs being wasted within seconds. For this reason I have struck it from the list.

The second would stop JPers from being able to circle the Hive almost outright as the second they hit the floor it would be 5 times easier to kill them. I'm thinking that if this were implemented according to this:

The third idea would be jsut as inpractical, remember most NS noobs are VERY stupid (Hell I know I was ) it would just leave packs of n00bs burning themselfs into crisps mid-air 'cos there to stupid to read manuals properly & realise that the JP overheats, then we would be bombarded by whineing from n00b that we're haxors 'cos we know how to use the JP properly. Do you REALY want to put up with that kind of crap?? I sead it before & I'll say it again, the second idea is just about the perfect solution.