KeksImperium
Oct 11 2004, 09:16 AM
with all the threads around here whinig about how the gorge could get more res and how to penalize people who spare all their res and build nothing i have to suggest a
new res model with would have
three classes of res gaining
- low res = player count as 1.5 players in terms of res pool -> you get 1.5 the res you would get now
- normal res = as it is now
- high res = player cont as 0.5 player in terms of res pool -> you get only 0.5 of the res you would get now
- very high res - player dont get res from the res pool anymore (but still for kills!)
posible definitions could be:
low: 0- 15 res
normal: 16 - 60 res
high: 60 - 75 res
very high: above 75 res
or
low: 0- 20 res
normal: 21 - 50 res
high: 51 - 80 res
very high: above 80 res
but plz dont hook on these numbers! thats the devs to decide 
this would
benefit the gorge, who have 0 - 10 res most the game, alowing them to build faster (wich is more fun)
or get faster res if you joined the game late with 0 res
also if you already got high amount of res (like good fade players) you got less res but
supply the other, less luckier team mates.
[edit]added very high res[/edit]
Legat
Oct 11 2004, 11:17 AM
I have to think about this....at first it sounded rather stupid to me, for the following reason:
This model would also benefit players saving for evlolutions and dying quickly. As soon as one spends his res and evlolves, the bonus kicks in and he will get res faster to evolve again after death.
This will be abused.
The funny thing is, that this abuse will chancel itself out, as the resincome does not incerease if the whole team actually is low on res.
However, good players with high rescount would indirectly benefit the others by sharing their income with the rest of the team.
Gorges could actually gain res for towers more quickly, and lerks would become more accessible....
I really don't know what to think of this....
KeksImperium
Oct 11 2004, 02:24 PM
| QUOTE (Legat @ Oct 11 2004, 01:17 PM) |
| The funny thing is, that this abuse will chancel itself out, as the resincome does not incerease if the whole team actually is low on res. |
at this point everything would be as it is now

but this model would encourage to spend res on res towers, because it dont hurt as much as it do at the moment...
if balanced correctly, saving for onos would take as long as it takes now
(for example if you define low as 0 - 20, normal as 21 - 60 and high as 61 - 100)
Shazbot
Oct 11 2004, 02:34 PM
So your res intake would basically gradually decelerate as your res pool is filled. Right?
Sounds like a good idea, give the res **** a tax, they can make it up with kills, the gorges can't.
You got my vote.
They should make it so if someone leaves the game, his res is divided among the remaining players...
KeksImperium
Oct 11 2004, 03:15 PM
| QUOTE (Shazbot @ Oct 11 2004, 04:34 PM) |
| So your res intake would basically gradually decelerate as your res pool is filled. Right? |
exactly!

i also thought up an addition to this model:
very high res - if you reach this point (minumum 75 - 80) you dont get res from the res pool anymore (but still for kills!)
its like yelling "what are you waiting for? go onos! at least do something with your res!"
theclam
Oct 12 2004, 02:01 AM
I like this idea. It would also help balance the res out for the good fades. The way it works now, good fades often die with 60+ res. That's 60 res that's not being used to help the team. With this idea, more of that res would go to the gorges.
One thing I see with this, is that it might make the second hive appear a lot earlier. If someone gorges instantly, they will get 50% more res for a longer period of time than if they waited for 45-50 res to go gorge and put down the hive. However, this might be balanced by the fact that, as gorges, they wouldn't get very many R4Ks.
Anyway, anything to reward gorges is always good in my book.
im_lost
Oct 12 2004, 05:34 AM
| QUOTE |
| They should make it so if someone leaves the game, his res is divided among the remaining players... |
Which would lead to people leaving to give others res, then rejoining.
| QUOTE |
| I like this idea. It would also help balance the res out for the good fades. The way it works now, good fades often die with 60+ res. That's 60 res that's not being used to help the team. With this idea, more of that res would go to the gorges. |
However, a fade with 50+ res saved up can be a little more aggressive, because if they die they can refade. If they are a good fade, the change in playstyle can make the difference.
| QUOTE |
| very high res - if you reach this point (minumum 75 - 80) you dont get res from the res pool anymore (but still for kills!) |
I like this, even if the rest of the idea doesn't go in.
mirrodin
Oct 12 2004, 01:13 PM
Very nice. I like the idea, this looks very viable.
KeksImperium
Oct 13 2004, 09:13 AM
no more comments about this?

its very sad seeing a good idea disapering because nobody looks at it...
at least flame it if you dont like it
Olmy
Oct 13 2004, 09:29 AM
I like this idea, it would also benefit the lerk class, because if you went one early on, you would gain res faster (because your res would drop below 20 again). Of course i have no idea how it would work out for the whole team but that would be easy to find out. (I'm sure someone could make a plugin that uses this res system).
Faskalia
Oct 13 2004, 10:13 AM
It sounds interesting.
Though i personally prefer a "cap" that every player can set for himself. (my cap would be 50 res, cause i usually save for hives)
Other players might set their "cap" to 10 res, cause the want to skulk the whole game.
Back to topic:
You got my vote it sounds good and after some serious playtesting it might be good enough to replace the current system.
Only problem is: Shelter Gorges would even hurt worse than before, cause they get a higher res income than other players.
Olmy
Oct 13 2004, 11:39 AM
I assume you mean gorges who hide in a vent at the end of a game and build dcs? If that is the case then res flow is irrelevant because they won't have any rts.
Faskalia
Oct 13 2004, 12:37 PM
| QUOTE (Olmy @ Oct 13 2004, 01:39 PM) |
| I assume you mean gorges who hide in a vent at the end of a game and build dcs? If that is the case then res flow is irrelevant because they won't have any rts. |
I rather meant those gorges who join a game, in order to make a hideout and annoy other player.
You might see them also, at least sometimes. They join play for 5 mins then they preceed to a nice spot on the map and start building huge hideouts. With this new res system they would always be in favor, cause their income would be 1.5 most of the time.
KeksImperium
Oct 13 2004, 12:54 PM
| QUOTE (Faskalia @ Oct 13 2004, 02:37 PM) |
I rather meant those gorges who join a game, in order to make a hideout and annoy other player.
You might see them also, at least sometimes. They join play for 5 mins then they preceed to a nice spot on the map and start building huge hideouts. With this new res system they would always be in favor, cause their income would be 1.5 most of the time. |
assuming he is not the only gorge it would be at least more than now

well, thats a flaw in the model, but luckily that happens rarly
(actualy i never seen a gorge anoying the others like this, but that means nothing

)
theclam
Oct 13 2004, 05:02 PM
| QUOTE |
I rather meant those gorges who join a game, in order to make a hideout and annoy other player.
You might see them also, at least sometimes. They join play for 5 mins then they preceed to a nice spot on the map and start building huge hideouts. With this new res system they would always be in favor, cause their income would be 1.5 most of the time. |
Then it's the job of server admins to kick someone who does this. It's silly to not put in a good idea because it will help L4m3r5.
| QUOTE |
Though i personally prefer a "cap" that every player can set for himself. (my cap would be 50 res, cause i usually save for hives) Other players might set their "cap" to 10 res, cause the want to skulk the whole game. |
This is a good idea, but it would be too abusive. Take a clan who all set their caps at 25 (the starting res amount). Then one player would get the first 25 res and would be able to put up the hive 5x as fast.
| QUOTE |
| However, a fade with 50+ res saved up can be a little more aggressive, because if they die they can refade. If they are a good fade, the change in playstyle can make the difference. |
Yes, but a fade never needs more than 50-56 res in order to refade. I've seen fades with 80+ res. That's 30 res that should be going to skulks or gorges.
A hard cap should be set at 75 res. The MAX res you will ever need is 81 res for an Onos + 3 upgrades. If your team has all three chambers, then you should have enough res towers to get the 6 res you need for upgrades while you are Onosing. At 75 res, all your res tower resources should go to your teammates. You should also get less res after 25 res and 50 res. You should have to partially earn the res to go Fade or Onos, rather than depend on a kind gorge to drop hives/chambers/rts. This would still allow newbies and those with less skill to practice their fading/onosing skills, but it would allow them to do it at a later stage in the game, when it is less vital to the team.
Kwil
Oct 13 2004, 07:23 PM
Okay, so what you've essentially done here is reduced the cost of everything except the onos and fade, and penalized the highly skilled players who make a lot of kills (because the RFK gets them up into the "high" zone a lot quicker)
Here's an easier way to do it that doesn't introduce SIX new variables (what is low, medium, and high, and how much does resflow increase/decrease for each one) for the devs to try to balance:
Lower the cost of the structures and evolutions and remove RFK.
Same effect, no programming required.
KeksImperium
Oct 14 2004, 09:33 AM
| QUOTE (Kwil @ Oct 13 2004, 09:23 PM) |
| Okay, so what you've essentially done here is reduced the cost of everything except the onos and fade, and penalized the highly skilled players who make a lot of kills (because the RFK gets them up into the "high" zone a lot quicker) |
sort of...
but its a little more dificult than that

1) this res system is independent from building and evolution costs! (sort of fuzzy logic) you can tweak it seperatly and add more rules if you see fit (different definitions per hive for example)
2) lowering costs would also encouraging "res savers" who waste their res due their lack of skill
3) skilled players however would benefitting gorges in my res model (what for does a good fade need that much res?)
4) players low on res (especialy gorges) will get more res in the same time than a fade killing every marine
5) wich leads us to the point that usefull players get sort of reward (fade gets f4k, gorge more res)
you suggest to remove both of them!
so the point of my model is, it rewards spending res and penalize hoarding it
Church
Oct 14 2004, 10:05 AM
I still hate r4k. It rewards DeathMatch behavior in an RTS game. Resource towers should (if the res system can ever be fixed right) be sufficient ot generate enough res, and it should be -very- important to defend those res towers.
Olmy
Oct 14 2004, 11:15 AM
I also dislike RFK. It accelerates the rate of play too much and takes away some of the importance of protecting rts. Anyway, the reason i supported this idea is because it helps the aliens who need it most (gorges, and higher lifeforms who are low on res and might need it to reevolve in the near future).
Kwil
Oct 14 2004, 11:23 PM
| QUOTE (KeksImperium @ Oct 14 2004, 03:33 AM) |
1) this res system is independent from building and evolution costs! (sort of fuzzy logic) you can tweak it seperatly and add more rules if you see fit (different definitions per hive for example)[/quote] You say this as if it's a good thing. Consider the hell that is balancing NS already. You want to add six new variables, all of which can be tweaked independantly, affect the entire alien game balance, and none of which have specifically defined results. It's like trying to adjust your heating bill by changing the temperature on your stove.
| QUOTE | 2) lowering costs would also encouraging "res savers" who waste their res due their lack of skill |
I absolutely don't understand what you're trying to say here. How does lowering costs encourage res-hoarding? If anything, it discourages it, because players can look at the situation and see that it won't take them as long to reach the level of the evolution/structure they want, the exact same as in your proposed system. Because of this, they'll be just as likely to place whatever other structure they would have placed under your system.
People don't hoard res to hoard res. People hoard res because they don't want to spend more time as an undesired evolution. Lower the time it takes to become thsoe evolutions and you handle that problem.
| QUOTE | 3) skilled players however would benefitting gorges in my res model (what for does a good fade need that much res?) |
Res over the top already goes into the pool and is distributed to other aliens more quickly. So this already happens, and your system would do nothing to change that.
| QUOTE | 4) players low on res (especialy gorges) will get more res in the same time than a fade killing every marine |
If structures and evolutions cost less, what do they care? Let's say that you give "low" players 1.5x the res. What this means in the game is that it takes 75% of the time to reach the level where you could build something. If you adjust the costs of the structures or evolutions down by 75%, it has the exact same effect
| QUOTE | 5) wich leads us to the point that usefull players get sort of reward (fade gets f4k, gorge more res) you suggest to remove both of them!
|
No.. in your system, useful players get no reward from RFK, because it moves them to slower and slower rates of natural gain. Gorge may get more res, but all that does is reduce the time til he can build something -- which is exactly what lowering the structure cost does. So my suggestion (no RfK and lowered structure costs) emulates yours exactly.
[quote] so the point of my model is, it rewards spending res and penalize hoarding it
|
No, it rewards hoarding res at the lower levels, and penalizes hoarding it only at the higher levels. It also rewards not killing at the lower levels, and penalizes not killing at the higher levels. Say you've got the situation well in hand. Your gorge is saving up so he can go into the base and drop down a load of OCs. Under your system, he's screwed when he hits the "topmost" level, because all he can get is RfK.. he's actually screwed once he hits the higher levels, because getting those final few will be very slow.
Because the gorge can't kill, neither can he save for a big "all at once" spending spree.
Way to go.
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