This poll is to replace the two topics found

http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ic=82545

and

http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=82417

Please discuss specifics to any change in a reply..

This is not an indication that we are looking at changing the knife (because we aren't atm) but rather to consolidate 2 threads into 1 and allow a consensus on how people feel..

In response to Zunni from other topic:

Ok, ok I understand you thing about webs being 3rd hive ability and knifes being default. It's kinda logical that webs can be cleared by knifes but for gameplay reasons it's totally unfair. :-) (don't flame me for saying this but just remember to allow flamethrowers to destroy webs, k?)


Anyways I think the knife is supposed to function as a last-resort anti-player weapon and is primarily a anti-structure weapon.

I think the knife is more than fine the way it is, hell I've gone on knife-only rampages on pubs, no lmg shots at all to soften up skulks and obtained 16-20 kills. Only thing I might think of changing is having weapon upgrades affect knives as well.

Crisano, can you get 16-20 kills with parasite only also? Otherwise,

I can't with parasite.

The best way to get parasite kills though is pray that marines go armor 2 early, then bite a marine 3 times, ending with 1 parasite hit for a kill. Since 3 bites leaves them with I believe 5hp.

*ignoring discussion and just writing in reply of zunnis 1st post*

I think the Knive should have a) lower damage or b) lower rate of fire.

just because marines are RANGED, damnit!
they shouldn't have a weapon that make hurt skulks shake in fear...
(use your ranged weapons to keep the aliens away from your underpants. if they are already near... prepare to be raped.)

If I play randomly marine, and my team got hmg and me not, im running around with a knive (slashing the air) to deal some extra damage / confusion to that onos.

because... knive has KNOCKBACK vs ONOS. Thats weird and crazy.
Maybe its good for ha, but la vs onos shouldnt give a knockback.

Knives should do 15 Blast damage(i.e. double to structures). They are too powerful against skulks right now. A skulk that manages to close the distance vs. an LMG should not die in two knife slashes if he only took a couple bullets. The knife is primarily a structure killing tool, and is supposed to be an extreme last resort weapon for the marines. As it is, though, sometimes the knife is actually more effective than a loaded gun if the alien is at melee range...

A good marine is practically guaranteed a knife kill against a wounded skulk. That should never be the case.

Yes, I'd vote for 15 blast damage (without blast knockback) if there was an option for it.

A good wounded skulk knows that bite range > knife range, and will act accordingly.

Skulks being too fragile is another issue altogether.

Maybe decreasing knife damage to 20 per swing (and about the same RoF) would do the trick. The knife is mostly used against RTs , that would live a third longer unless they are attacked with ammo using weapons.

Else decreasing the knife range would make it far less effective in combat for sure , against skulks at least.

The blast damage solution would make things clear - knife structures , not aliens. This change has the least side effects I think.

Ignoring the knockback bug (Fixed in B6 I believe), the knife is fine.

[EDIT] Although I would be willing to try reducing the knife's range somewhat. Now the difference between a skulk's bite and the knife is minimal.

It would be nice if the knife were a little easier to use. I've never been good with the knife, because it is very difficult to hit a moving skulk with it. The area of effect for the knife is so small, compared to bite or swipe, that it is useless for me to use it except for killing rts. I'm usually in the top 20% of a server, so I can imagine for the 80% of people worse than me, that it is even harder. Of course, it might just be me, and everyone else can hit with the knife .

In my oppinion the damage per second should stay the same.
But the knife should slash a lot faster and do less damage per slash, as well as knockback should be removed from it completely.

Lets say the knife does 5 damage per slash but it slashes 6 times faster than now. And of course: Knockback is removed.

Result: Time to take down any structure stays the same.
The chance to knife skulks is greatly reduced.
The animations *cough* might be a little fast *cough*.

So that was my knife wishlist.

I'm exact opposite of you, Faskalia..

I think the knife should be given blast damage (x2 vs structures) and the rate of fire cut in half. The knife range could be extended to be equal to that of the skulk-bite. (I tend to feel that for all realistic intents and purposes it already is, but this would at least shut up those people who think that 1/4 the height of a skulk is a noticeable range difference in a combat situation)

Same amount of time to kill a structure
Same amount of swipes to kill an alien
More skill required to kill an alien.

End the whirling wall of ginsu goodness. Make it so that a knife kill is well-earned by a marine who knows how to time his swings and catch the incoming skulk.

Lower the Rate of Fire, keep the damage.

Knifes have the weird juggling knockback. Getting hit by one a few times now is disorientating enough as it is. Getting hit by a knife going twice the speed, even with half damage would make it even more powerful (because you can't hit what you can't get a bearing on.)

Knives are just too good right now. You can maintain positive K:D ratios with it when it's supposed to be a total last resort against aliens and is primarily a structure killer. Make it reflect that by halving the damage and giving it blast status.

And the range of bite over knife is neglible. Too small to be considered an "upside".

Heh, I certainly can't maintain a positive K:D ratio with only my knife. I'm guessing most players can't.

Most players will be able to take you down if you use your knife.

And the slower RoF wouldn't work, because most of the time I see someone unload their LMG/pistol and then quickly switch to the knife and slash you before you knew what hit you.

I'ld say just wait until the knife knockback is fixed, then we'll see. I'ld like to suggest for the time being though, that they reduce some of the dissorientation that the knife causes?

I'd opt for a longer delay between going from a weapon to a knife.

maybe longer range but doesnt disorient aliens.

Can we agree that the confusion the knife causes(knockback and view disorientation) is annoying and should be removed?

how about removing the knife and replace it with the welder?

Before you set your mind to "flame", read on:

1.
The welder doesnt need the be a multitool at first, heck, it doesnt even need to be there at first. Perhaps you can make it appear as a third weapon after the armoury is build , or after welder-tech is researched.
Maybe you could make it unable to repair armour before that tech is researched.

2.
Prolong the times it takes to weld open/closed the welder points on the map.

3.
Give it blast dmg.

Result: You get a weapon good at killing RTs and harmless chambers, that can easily be refitted to repair your teammates. You also get a weapon very lame when it comes to actually killing moving objects.



OR:


Make the knife unable to harm aliens with X% armour left (finishing it off, yes - killing it with 2 swipes, no)

Half the damage, give it blast damage so it doubles damage to structures. Too often I see marines empty a LMG clip, empty a pistol clip, then whip out the knife and 1 hit kill a skulk that had exactly 30hp. It's pretty ridiculous that a marine gets that many chances to kill a skulk.

Wow a lot more people than I thought want it nerfed! That suprised me. I was one of those who said leave it as it is. So those of you who want it nerfed, can you summarize for me why so? I don't see what the problem is.

I don't know. If you've been shot six times and then a Marine takes a knife as big as your head and stabs it into your gut or slices a 3" deep wound from one side of your body to the other, I believe you -deserve- to die.

As many others have said, Skulks are faster than Marines and Bite has a longer range. If a Marine is just spinning around knifing, Parasite him. By the time he draws his gun in response you're back to chewing on his leg. The Knife is fine.

[EDIT:] I'd also like to comment on the extreme lack of Knife kills I see. If you die to the Knife, it's because a) you suck, b) the marine is better, c) luck. Either way, the Knife makes no difference. I see more Parasite, Spit, and Healspray kills (not combined) than I do Knife kills. Decreasing the effectiveness of the Knife because you're tired of being killed when Marines deliberately go for Knife kills by softening you up first would also decrease it's original use -- a last resort weapon.

If you try to balance the knife so that it's too useless to be used as a regular weapon and the only time you'd draw it was when you've emptied both your LMG and pistol clips and there's a Skulk coming at you with no time to reload.. then you have no chance anyway.

You cannot have two Knives. One for killing and one for desperate use. :/ Read the backstory. The knife is perfectly shaped and balanced for the most efficient usage.

its fine. it hurts, so? Adapt.
bite = 75, knife = 30. Do the math, who dies first. Just hit first.

My biggest question is if I remade this poll today with the knowledge that knockback has been removed.. how much different would the results be?

There is only one way to find out, lock this one and close the poll, create another, include the latest information.

Of course you may want to wait until people have played with the new knife first, not knocking back lower lifeforms (has viewshake been removed as well?) could go either way in practice.

I am 90% sure the shake is also gone.. If a PT comes by and can susbstantiate the claim, that would be loverly.

If viewshake and knockback have been removed the knife is totally fine. Though it would still be nice if it was more oriented around killing structures for free.

btw. im awaiting more polls like this one

where are they???

i dont believe it should be changed at all except for the knockback, which is fixed in b6.




so yeah it does take only 3 hits to kill a skulk, all you have to do as a skulk, if you have like 25 hp, and the rine has 75, and has his knife going is back off a bit, **** the situation, thne take advantage of the rnage on bite.

I hate having to eat my words, but after testing I find I'm forced to do so. The range is nearly half that of skulk bite.
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/align1/images/co.jpeg

Despite the lack of knife kills you see, that's mostly because people don't know how the knife can be used. No knockback (at all I hope?) on the knife would remove this problem, but WITH knockback, a marine was rather superior to the skulk with a knife out. Someone posted a knifing guide in the frontiersman forum, and I tried it out, and lo and behold... it worked.

Basically, don't swing wildly. Wait for the skulk to approach, and swing. Almost all skulks come in closer than they need to bite, putting them in range. The knife has a higher ROF than bite. In most cases, the skulk will be hit first, KNOCKED BACK, allowing you to repeat the process endlessly. A damage nerf would help a little, but the knockback enabled me, one game, to solo without ammo. I was astounded at how well it actually worked. I hadn't believed that the knife was overpowered until I actually gave it a shot, and I think most other people who don't knife are similar.

With knockback completely removed, I suspect the knife will be just fine, although the ROF is still a little silly.

The knife should have the same range it has now, does the same amount of damage to buildings but less to lifeforms(1/2?).

I'd like to see the damage stay the same... but please!

What has a longer range? A skulk's mouth or a marines fully extended arm with an 8 inch bit o steel on the end of it??? So why are all the alien attacks a longer range than the knife?

Personally, I'd ditch that lil POS knife and like to pull out a Katana or something... but eh... we are marines, not samurai