k. I did a serch, and after the 5page. i gave up. im sure this has been mentioned before. but I didn't see it resently and sorry if I missed it will looking through.

Basicly. Allow Aliens to choose hive location. Nothing more irriating than only practicing one side then during a match, get a side you didn't practice only because its random.

maybe having so when on alien side. you save hive1 hive2 or hive3 it will make it so you get the hive of choice when the game starts. and sense it would be a team say. (maybe even a secret say in the console) before saying ready of corse. if none set, then random of course.

opinions please.

Good for new clanners, bad overall


Why? Because the closet hive will always be picked by those clans skilled at early game, no upgrade, speedy, kick em hard while they're down skulk rushes, while the farrthest hive will be chosen by those that like to crawl foward capping res and just kicking ****... randomness is a good thing believe it or not


Good idea, and somewhat thought out, tho I presume English isn't your primary language by the grammar and spelling... then again, I know plenty of natively english speaking ppl that still **** up our horribly made out language

in my opinion this would make the game to complicated...

maybe only as an turney option but never for pubs

8 cups of coffee and 2 sodas will make it harder to type and spell correctly. Sometimes I run a spell Check on it all. I know english well. I just hate spelling.

NEways. This can make it so aliens get more stategy. Like you said. Some would get the closest hive to marine start so they could base rush. Some would rather have the middle hive. Some would rather have the farthest hive. etc. etc. I mean this realy brings in more strategy and less random.

Eh, I'd say knowing english means you can also spell. I mean, most people can speak english, but their vocabulary only stretches so far, or they can only speak and listen, but cannot read or write.

ANYWAYS...

Allowing the aliens to choose a hive location at the start. First of all how would this work? A vote perhaps? That might take up too much time. Also different maps = better or crappier hives. We would then have all maps always have the same hives being played (a majority of the time) until people get bored (with things like going Defense first, so they will mix it up). So now you can almost ALWAYS guess where the aliens are coming from. So as for that I guess Id have to say .... no, because of the fact it makes things even more predicatable than the fade strat, or the defense strat, etc.

This is certainly a viable idea, but I think the responsibilty should fall somewhat to mappers as well, if one hive is weaker than others, enough so that clan players dread playing it, then the mapper should fix the issues..

Interesting, but I think what you said about changing existing Hives for the Official maps is a bad idea.

Now I'm no tourney pro, in fact I've never even seen an NS clan match since I begun playing, but I do think that mapping shouldn't be orientated towards pleasing the match players.

The less randomness in NS games, the less competitiveness. I know that sounds crazy, but hear me out. At its highest level I know that competitive NS players will all be of a similar calibre, similarly expert at attacking with an LMG or a skulkbite. So, if we assume you're all similarly skilled, where does the competition come in? Are matches to be decided simply by one player's mouse slipping too far? To me this sounds like a ridiculous way to play competitive games.

It also sounds like NS might slip into the realms of so many RTS games that are settled by who can build the quickest, biggest tankrush. By this I don't mean that NS teams who build quickest win. I mean that there will be a known, single strategy and whoever does this quickest or more efficiently will win. Don't you think that's a bit on the boring side? Yes it's skill, but only in the most basic of forms. The real skill comes from interpreting your enemy's moves, second-guessing their next attack or which are of the map they'll pump their resources into.

If teams always started in the same place on a map the real strategy would be lost, and you could boil an NS Official map strategy down to a simple equation! Surely that's not what the competitive side of NS are looking for. These teams are supposed to be the best of the best, la crème de la crème; and they're being reduced to following a linear rulebook based on high probability. Should all NS maps become clones of this Mod's answer to de_dust? No. No. No.

This is why random starting Hives are a good idea. They promote real strategy. They allow for a huge amount of possibilities. Yes I believe that the Hives should be roughly balanced, but I have no intention of making a map where all of the Hives are precisely equidistant from the MS and each of the nearest Resource Nodes. To take the mappers side of the arguement, they are trying to create balanced but believable environments, an atmosphere that immerses the player, a location that isn't based on staight-laced algorithms but on human nature.

As for the clans, think about what you want to be tested on. As we all get older our reactions get slower, and basing your strategies on 'quickest trigger finger' tactics won't help you when you've passed your gaming peak. Surely what you really want is somethng that tests your mind -that's good for another few decades yet!

So the choice:

- Be quick or be dead. Follow the rulebook and you'll come up trumps
or
- Use your noggin. Wars aren't won by muscle alone

I agree on a NO.

Its fun of course, but we are kharaa.. adapt.

Rather than choosing one hive, how about ruling one out instead.
Just about every map has an utterly gimped hive that equals defeat itself.

Maintenance - Eclipse,
Waste - Tanith,
Pipeline - Veil,
Powersilo - Nothing,
Biodome - Origin,

Just for examples. So if you could "choose" to NOT start with hives like that, you wouldnt lost because of random factors anymore, without completely taking out said random factor.

Hehe, yeah those are really horrible hives.

Well what if it comes a case that on ns_hera they always choose hive X, and not Y or Z because they're bad. It'l have a reputation that in almost every clan match, they'll choose that one hive.

Sure it'll help the aliens. But for Marines, it'll be "They'll be at X. It's always X."

I think it's fine as it is.

I feel this is an utterly horrible idea that will lead to clanners always choosing the best hive every time.

--Scythe--

This still means that Marines KNOW that Aliens will never start at certain Hives, so one of TWO (no more) strategies will occur:

- Send a man to Hive:Lame straight away to start locking it down.

- Send a constant stream of Marines to Hive:2ndBest and lock that down.

You're also forgetting about the maps where Hive:Lame is in between the two better Hives, meaning that you have to take Hive:Lame as your second Hive. I really think this creates more problems than it solves. By pretty much telling Marines where you're not, it makes it far easier for them to guess where you are. This means they'll know that certain areas of the map will be safe, giving them the easiest ride of their life.

What you're suggesting is essentially gimping the Alien team in ALL clan matches.

Locking down hives in clan matches ... ?

how could the possibility of having a choice harm the aliens in some way?

still, i find buggehs idea better.

It's not fair that one clan might get a good hive first round, then the other clan gets a lame hive next round, it would be fair if both teams got the lame hive, or the good hive, but not one getting the easy hive and one the hard. Sure this is fine for a scrim, but in tourney games it really bites. Its true this wont affect a signifigantly better team much, but this can play a signifigant role in determining the outcome between two clans which are closely-matched.

You can say that the random element makes it interesting, but its also frustrating when you lose, and you consider a random element to have contrubuted to that, rather then a mistake you've made.

If the hives were all equally good then this wouldnt be a problem, however that isn't the case.

In that case clans should choose not to play on maps which have lame Hives, but I'd like to hear the clan views on which are the worst, and which are just irritating and require a more advanced strategy. I'd particularly like somone to post or at least link to some strategies for the weak Hives, just to see if what I said about strategising for the win is viable.

What I said before about teams being able to adapt to the worst of environments still stands. However if clans only want to play perfect maps, maybe there should be new (imo boring and stale) maps (again imo more like arenas) for clans to play on so that they can't complain about lame Hives. There are a ton of nice maps all nearing completion and release from the mapping community at the moment, maybe some of them are better suited to clan play.

Hmm...

I find the idea of selecting a hive very attractive for a new 'training mode'.
This way clans could practice their strats for a certain hive.

That I could live with, but I'm sure it would be oh so tempting for the Devs to make it a tourney mode option... which everyone would use

Can't the comm simply look at the hive room and listen for noises (like aliens running around) to see if that is the starting hive? That means that the randomness of the starting alien hive doesn't present any more of a surprise to marines than it does to aliens. Since the marines know the starting hive no matter what, it could only help the aliens to be able to pick a hive.

I was under the impression that structure noises etc. were under review by the Devs for future releases to combat the aforementioned game-killing.

What about player noises?

Comms can still pinpoint the starting hive by listening for player footsteps(if he's quick) or dropping an ammo pack or something on the hive spot and watching how it falls.

Such **** why not play the game how it's supposed to be played. Sometimes I think that competitive NS really hurts the originally intented gameplay...

I'm increasingly thinking that the deselect a Hive idea is viable, and that I never, ever want to ruin my NS experience by playing it competitive.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me: Oh where could those Aliens be? I'd better be careful, check this corner, check that. Damn this gets my adrenaline going...

Commander: Hive is Maint, shotgun rush.

Me: Oh. Great. Now I remember, NS is a game and I'm not allowed to be immersed in it. Maybe I'll go play CS, it almost has more realism!!! (get my point?)

So you never played the game competitively ? And you argue against the suggestion that aliens are allowed to start with a non-**** hive in tournament mode ? You are right, competitive play is the devil and all the evil clanners are ruining the beautiful game.

Looks like someone only read the last page. I've been explaining my thoughts on this system over the last two pages.

Just because I've never played NS competitively, that doesn't mean I'm unentitled to an opinion, nor does it mean that I don't try to play on 'Veteran' pub servers where I can expect a higher level of competition.

Nor does it mean that I've never played competitively on other Mods, take TFC and CS for example, the latter of which I played for a clan that was 20th in CB. Don't try to rule me out of this thread because I've had no NS clanplay, I still have a valid opinion, and if you'd read it first before criticizing me I'd give you the same respect as I'm deserved from you.

Philistine

Sorry, but I personally do not consider your 'thoughts' to be valid. You have no experience in competitive NS, you don't know what it looks like. So why should you come here and tell how you think tournament mode should be ?

Proof (not conclusive of course, but it does support my claim) that NS at a competitive level loses it's atmosphere, one of the foundation blocks upon which this great Mod stands.

Anyway, you're right you don't have to listen to or like any of what I'm saying. You also don't have to imagine perhaps that I might be able to grasp how competitive NS games might be played out, having played at a very competitive level myself on other Mods -that might be too much of a strain on your imagination (or logical thought processes morelike). But there is no way you personally can dictate who in this or any thread is permitted a voice. I'm sorry but that's just the way life is.

Because you played competitively in other mods, you know that in NS' tournament mode, letting aliens choose their hive is a bad idea ? You're truly a genius.

Your 'proof' starts with some random guy saying "Ok guys and girlz". Haha.

By atmosphere, do you mean things like :

I was merely pointing out the fact that you may not have truly considered my position on this. Which leads me to question whether you ever considered why I don't play NS competitively.

I don't play because I'm still bound to a 56k when at home and currently don't even have a private computer for the next three months -making Clanplay a virtual impossibility. That said it doesn't rule out the possibility that I may, when I have the neccessary equipment, show more than an interest in playing NS at a competitive level. Am I to be cast out of this thread simply because currently I am not NS clanned? when in fact I am interested in having an input on which direction competitive gaming for NS will take. If that is the opinion of the Admins of these forums and indeed the Natural Selection team then maybe I should find another less exclusive community. The fact of the matter is that NS encourages new players and welcomes informative input from its fanbase.

There are many things I could say about your judgements and assumptions which I haven't simply because it's not needed, and as such have worded my posts very carefully. If you choose to take offense at something then you only have your interpretation of what I have posted to blame.

You've misinterpreted what I was trying to say (my fault for not being more clear and throwing about rash comments). What I meant was that NS play has a lot to do with atmosphere and strategising for the unknown elements in the game (for example random team starts). That said I do wholeheartedly agree with what was said about any competitive play 'killing the atmosphere' (to use my own phrase). I think I've said my bit here, and I'd like to hear a bit more from people who know NS clan play inside and out...

Or we could play the game how we want to play, to the limit that the game allows us to play it. I'll have the most fun and enjoyable experience playing how I want to, so I will.

And yes there is no atomosphere in high level clan play. I mean a good portion of high level clanners have their gamma so hax that the maps are practically fullbright. Really, atmosphere is something that you become desensitied too. Most clanners will be paying more attention to, for example, how many bites they need to kill that marine or how much damage they did to that fade, rather then "OoOh a monstar" . I find atmosphere only applys to new, non-serious or infrequent players.

Would competitive players prefer to have custom tourney maps, with less FPS reducing PS (particle sytems - think steam, fog etc), bright lights throughout and more map entities spent on pro-flight/crawl clipnodes?

Would you even notice if it was different?

I'm not asking this to provoke in any way, just to guage interest on how the competitive community would receive some Tourney maps (let's just call em arena maps). They'd be a hell of a lot easier and quicker for me to make, apart from the playtesting which would be thoroughly and strictly applied for maximum team balance. Ever since I started reading this thread I've been mulling the idea of making some arena maps over in my head. Your thoughts?

Not quite sure what you mean by arena, however, If there was a balanced map, that wasnt BAD to look at I'm sure the competitive community would pick it up. I mean look at tfc maps, most of the popular competitive ones have been specifically designed or redisgned for competetion. Smooth walls and roofs to make movement easier etc. I mean even in ns, look at eclipse, veil, tanith. Compared to some other maps like ayumi and agora, they may not be as nice to look at, but the gameplay more then compensates for this, and makes the map a whole lot more popular. The simpler and less cluttering geometry in those maps definately makes them more enjoyable competitively.

That was entirely my point, that imo there should be different maps for competitive play (or at least a set of compy designed maps) that cut down on what I call atmosphere (ie pretty things that make you lag) while putting maximum emphasis on team balanced gameplay. Obviously they wouldn't look like funmaps but would be done more in an Eclipse-style (just look at the minimal infestation in its Hive locations). At the same time I think that Hives should have more bumpy edges not only for authenticity but to impair bipedal movement.

So my question was: would competitive players want a set of 'high on gameplay low on atmosphere' maps?

Your point about the marines not knowing what hive they have with random on isn't entirly true. a decent comm can figure out what hive they have in less than 30 seconds.
Here are 3 diffrent ways.
1. Listen to skulks running away from the hive.
2. Drop an RT at hives untill you find the undroppable one.
3. Drop a medpack or ammo pack at hive location. If it falls slowly, hive there.

You also need to remember that marines dont lock down hives in competive play (usualy) unless they get sens first.

and due to marines being able to figure out what hive they have, rushes and such happen in competive play.

But like you said you dont want to play competivly because it ruins your atomosphere of play. And at the same time, you argue that having choosen hives will ruin the atomosphere of play. That might be true. but based on your own statement that competive play is already un-atomospheric, then choosing your own hive wouldn't matter.

If you truely wanted to have a great atomosphere, then have random map generation. That way its impossible to play the same game twice.]

And you right atomosphere is what got me into NS. But its competive gameplay ability is what keeps me in NS.

Also maybe the competive play maps might be better..but still want the choose a hive OR maybe the Dear god not that hive option

Sorry Gecko but this has already been said before (yes - all of it).

Tell me something new please.