I've been thinking about this for quite a while; with each progressive version, a bit of the bright-shiny fun that was to be had in 1.0x was lost. Electrification, Devour, non-stacking Spores, useless third-hive weaponry, and so on.

One of the largest just became apparent earlier today, though, when I was thinking about some of the old 6 hour plus battles. At the moment, a confrontation between a Marine and a Skulk lasts approximately 1.5 seconds, on average. Either the Marine goes down to a surprise bite, or the skulk is gunned down before they can get close. During the 1.0x era, the average confrontation time between a single Skulk and single Marine was between 7 and 10 seconds.

The suggestion is to lower the damage dealt by Marine weaponry (and Kharaa, if it is seen as unbalanced... though I doubt it would be), to bring the combat-times back to where you have a chance to realize you're being fired upon, and either escape or start to dodge.
Also, I have to suggest this damage-drop for the Marine side only, given that as of current revisions, the vanilla Marine, solo, is more than a match for a Skulk of equal skill. This was NOT the original idea, which held with Marines travelling in groups for survival; the break-even point was three Marines against three Skulks. Any lower than that, and the Marines were at a distinct disadvantage.

However, with their ability to concentrate fire from across a room, the three (using teamwork) would be able to handle an equal number of Skulks. Whereas the Skulks would be forced to either seperate to handle a Marine apiece (usually losing one before even reaching the group of 'rines) or all rush one in hopes that they can reach the other two before being gunned down.


Yes, we can only balance the game. But a bit of teamwork should be expected from those playing on the Marine side.

nice suqq3stion

needs huge playtesting, but i think its worth it

*Agrees*

The way it is will always be playable, you just have to out-think the Marines when playing as a Skulk. I would appreciate it if this was implemented, sensibly, because it would encourage more players to join aliens. (I can't remember the last time I played NS and was autoed to Marines the same amount of times as to Aliens.

It's fine once you get leap, but I do think that you lose too much health just peeking round a corner to see if someone's there. Then you have to traipse back to the Hive/Gorge for health or if you're lazy you give the Commander 1-3 res.

In short, this should definitely be considered.

By expanding out the battles, you are also expanding the length of the overall game, Flayra is working to try to squeeze all the same memorable gameplay into a shorter game time.. (Where we are currently is almost perfect in terms of game length )

If we were going back to the much longer game times then I'd agree but at this point we aren't.

I've re-opened this, mostly because I guess there are potentially tedious parts of the game that could be shortened in order to allow the combat to flow..

I'd love more epic battles and even longer games. Seeing as flayra wants shorter games then to achieve the epic battles we'd have to sacrafice other areas. There are plenty of potential candidates, because NS is all about timing, but some would change the game quite significantly.

Clan games are already fairly snappy but you could take a big chunk out of pub game length by shortening the end game (e.g. marines camp in spawn). There's been suggestions around to do this too

You can always decrease research, hive times etc but this means that each era will last for an even shorter period (I'm in favour of them being lengthened).

I like this idea but we need ways to fix the time problem.

The problem is, we're sacrificing the part that's supposed to be fun... the part where you're PLAYING the game, in favor of getting to the outcome faster.

Hell, it's almost become instagib, with the times I recorded. And note, I took those with a stopwatch while spectating a 1.04 and 3.0B5 game, respectively.


The game is where the fun lies. NOT the outcome. And this is also why Flayra originally did not want a god-gun. Fast kills... and 1.5s is VERY fast.. feel cheap. It's 'crap, died, time to wait for respawn and run back to die again'.

The question is, should the FUN of NS be sacrificed in favor of making a game last only 20 minutes? I say no. Lower the Marine damage. They have ranged weaponry and teamwork, which means they can fire on the same target from across a room. They need to move in teams and work together to score a win. Kharaa are ineffective until they have crossed the distance to a given Marine. With two Marines, that is moot, because the other one can continue firing even if the Skulk manages to reach them.


Lowered Marine damage would bring a lot of the fun back into the game... the fun of the game is NOT 'which team wins'. It's making memories, running along a wall , dodging gunfire to chomp a Marine. Or defending your teammate, who is unable to track the bugger running along the wall, taking him down just before your teammate gets torn to shreds.

This isn't CS. This isn't DOD. This is NS... that needs to be remembered before complying with ANOTHER game's style (or round-time) screws things up worse than they've become.

i agree

you would think that the rines would be the ones that have to think, as there human, an iteligent species, while the aliens are bacteria, but no, as a skulk you gotta always be thinking one step ahead of the rine if hes anyhting better than your average joe

i donno by how much the weapons need decreased, but i really think the pistol needs decreased in streangh, if u watch "good" rines they often use a pistol b4 there lmg, and the skulk is either dead long before it reaches the rine or it only takes 1 or 2 lmg hits to kill. and its even more annoying when a rine clicks 5 times, and gets 10 shots in ya, if ya know what i meen ;/

I agree as well. I would like to see some extra health, both for skulks AND lerks. Lerks die really quick too. When HA comes out, both become obsolete, unlike LMG light marines, who tend to be usefull throughout the game.

I dont think the changes should be too big though. Maybe let the skulk take 1 or 2 more normal LMG rounds to kill. Lerk, maybe 2-5 more LMG rounds, not sure...

EDIT: Oh... and about the short games thing: BAD IDEA. I dont hang out on these forums too much, but Im pretty sure the commuinity consensus is longer games. Does he want to alienate his own fan base?

And when I played on old school FR1ENS and the HAM server there was great teamwork too. However, a handful of examples is not good enough of an agrument to offset the clear fact that there is a lack of teamplay.

This is a very interesting suggestion talesin... but you can't reduce the marines damage and leave the kharaa untouched.

Could you be more specific as the drasticness of this reduction?

I'd like to see structures get the most reduction and keep the offense/defense balance tipped a little more to a offense > defense.

That's what I feel is most important to restoring powershifts and the fun aspect.

I've said it once and i'll say it again:

Longer games give more flex time. [The more "flex" time, the less "omg-gotta-frag-this-skulk-then-that-skulk-then-rush-to-the-hive-and-pwn-them"]

Currently NS is nothing more then a frag fest. Skulks can kill marines in two hits; one with focus if the marine has no armor. Marines can kill skulks with the LMG in under 1/5th their magazine. Devour can "kill" a marine instantly. HMGs can kill skulks nearly instantly...


I really do wish NS would FEEL like a epic battle, even if you're fighting a skulk. Like, the skulk could take 3 or 4 hits to kill you WITHOUT armor, and you could kill it in about 25 bullets. Of course the skulk would still have it's 70 HP and 10 armor, and the marine would have his 100 HP and 35(?) armor.

It'd make people feel invulnerable, like they're some sort of killing machine, when in fact they're just as vulnerable as their enemy. As a skulk you could just walk a line to a single marine and tear his guts out, but you'd stick to the shadows if there were three of them. As a marine you'd s**t your pants if you saw a skulk if you were alone, and feel like some sort of god if you were in a group; until of course you see a pack of skulks equal in number to your own.

(StarCraft referances ahead!)
A marine in StarCraft is not instagibbed; nor is a zergling. It takes several hits to kill a marine, and several hits to kill a zergling. However, if you double the damage both do then it becomes similar to how fast combat progresses; QUITE similar to NS. The marine is at a distinct advantage, having the range AND TIME to do his damage. However, if you halve the damage for both the zergling and the marine, then you get something like Talesin is suggesting where combat is drawn out and exciting.

This is a bad idea.
The marines ONLY advantage on the aliens is distance. What you're asking is to butcher that advantage and give the aliens a huge boost in their advantage. Marines should absolutely 100% dominate at ranged combat vs skulks. Nothing should touch them. The marines have range and firepower. They have no speed. Limited ammo. Limited mobility. And you want them worse? The problem isn't the combat times it's the overall lack of need for teamplay and cutting the balls off the marine team won't fix teamplay. Putting emphasis on locations and technology would.
I have no problem klling marines provided I can cut as much distance between me and him as possible. Waiting behind corners or on ceilings or behind pipes. That's what being a skulk is about. Ambushing and gaining the element of surprise. Not charging across holoroom with 4 marines vs 4 skulks and complaining how you lost IN A WIDE OPEN AREA. And 1.5s is an eternity when you've got skulks breathing down your neck.

Long games don't = fun. 1.04 had long games when marines failed to succeed in their jp rush. Then they were locked in there base for an hour and a half while fades pummeled them with acid rocket. So did 2.0 except it was just oni running in a devouring and redeeming. Boy that was blast wasn't it.
I've played one long game that was incredibly fun and that lasted about an hr and a half. 3-4hr games aren't fun and alot of people don't want to spend 3-4hrs in a game. 20 minutes is plenty long IMHO


The combat times vs skulks in 1.04 are different because DC's went up extremely fast in 1.04. Unlike now where everyone saves for fade. And whines about not having DC"s. And note that the marines only buff on their lmg was the decreased research costs. Aliens got more speed. So logically yes the time would be shorter since the skulks can close the distance that much faster.

And out of curiosity who were you playtesting this 1.04 vs 3.0b5 stuff with

EDIT

The main difference is that in older versions, just as with the Onos, more shots were missed than hit.
Skulk bite damage and speed were not changed. The LMG was tweaked slightly to compensate. However, even with those tweaks (1.04) it still took between 7 and 10 seconds to kill a Skulk.

Add more Marines (fireteams) and you have why Marines used teamwork or died in the 1.0x era. Why rambos were a bad thing, which did not survive long.
The original concept was that a single Marine would be killed with relative ease by a skulk player of the same skill level. Two and two, advantage was still with the Skulks, but less so. Three and three was an even match, and was the estimated optimal Marine fireteam size.

As it stands now, a single Marine will kill a Skulk more than half the time. Add a second marine, and the old synergistic balancing scheme still kicks in, making it MORE unlikely that the Skulk will survive.


As for who I was playing, I wasn't. I was spectating a 1.04 game, with a stopwatch. Numbers may have been slightly skewed due to reaction and/or perception time, but even in an in-close combat, with fly-across-the-room knockback, the Skulk still had a decent chance, rather than being blipped to the respawn in 1.5 seconds, as with 3.0B5.

Lowering the Marine damage would not weaken them. It would require a return to teamplay. Combat is there for the fragfesters; NS Classic needs to remember its roots.


The playing of the game is what makes it fun. NOT the outcome. And that's what has been focussed on recently... making the outcome arrive faster.

Skulk speed was increased with the 2.0 patch by 10%
LMG damage has not been touched EVER. Skulks died the same as they did in 1.04 infact in 1.04 they had bigger hitboxes. There was no 7 second battle between a skulk and marine. Only if they were 2 incompetent fumbling idiots the battles were usually over within 3 seconds or less.
You're trying to balance this like an RTS. Don't. Marines won't focus fire on one skulk. There's not that much communication between marines. Not even in clanplay.

http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=82157
http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=79263
Those 2 ideas right there would go a long way.

And yes it's an RTS/FPS So you balance it like one. Not one or the other.


There's very very very very few near loss comebacks in RTS's and FPS's. Once you gain a clear advantage the game should be swinging heavily into the hands of the people with the advantage. There's no surprise comeback. It's a mop up unless the other team can rally and make a good last or not so last stand. You want NS to be like an RTS/FPS the first thing you need to get out of your head is that There's no comebacks except in rare extreme cicumstances.
Length doesn't equal Intensity. I've had 30minute matches in NS that rivaled that of any 4hr game of NS. If you can have an intense balls to the wall gameplay in 20minutes . It would be awesome in every way imaginable.
Now I have played 1 game out of 600 plus games played that was long and fun. It lasted an hour and a half and on the marine team we were grasping at straws as we lost the lockdown on hive3. We ninja phases 3 hives before the server finally crashed. And the only reason it was fun is because it was intense as hell holding onto double for 5 minutes while shooting oni trying to devour us.

Because it's common sense. What the hell would be the point of even attempting to gain an advantage when you knew it meant diddly squat? Infact what would be the point in even playing the game if you knew at any minute you could lose due to blind luck. How much fun would that be. It sure as hell wouldn't be fun for losing team on that one would it. Once you gain a major advantage the game should be all but over. If the aliens lost their 2nd hive or their 3 DC"s they should be at an extreme disadvantage with a minimal chance of having a comeback. The intensity comes from defending those precious items just long enough to get reinforcements and then the massive battle that ensews. That's epic. Not having 5 HA marines sieging your last hive only to lose because we gave the marines rubber bullets to make battles longer....

Battle length should be determined by number of particapating people and the amount of time it takes someone to gain an advantage. Not how long it takes to kill a lifeform

I think Talesin has a good point.

It's the rambos that, in my opinion, have really changed the game. I plopped a thread in beta discussion a while back about giving the kharaa a much larger raw, physical power advantage over the marines like they used to in 1.0. My mistake was directly aligning the thread with 1.04, causing people to scream "JP/HMG RUSH!" and other people to scream "1.04 > ALL!".

A Kharaa power advantage would alter the marine gamestyle but not the Kharaa's. My experience on pubs is that aliens are highly individualistic, which I feel is the way it should be. However, I've found that out of experience that the aliens only win if they match the coherence and tact of a moderately well-commanded team with a few rambos in the mix. This marine team I speak of isn't your average clan or pug team; I'm talking about a team that is basically sheperded around by the commander (which sometimes I feel like that's exactly what I'm doing). But, the aliens in pubs absolutely refuse to assault points of interest coherently. It seems that alien playstyle has stubbornly resisted evolving.

This is a clan balance and pub balance issue. Clan alien teams have a chance because they can match the level of teamwork and nearly match the overall playstyle of a marine team: move in groups and have a pair or so of skulks weed out loners, whether accidental or ordered. Pub alien teams simply don't want to do that.

I wish there was an easy solution to help the pub balance without obliterating organized balance. I'm going to grab a meal and see if I can come up with any ideas other than what Talesin suggested.

Yes Chem but as anyone who studies video game design history you will know that linear is pwned by non-linear.

(not to mention non-linear maps, gameplay, depth, etc. enchances immersion and fun)

For that reason I want to see powershifts. It goes along with the non-linear attribute in sucessful games. A linear gameplay is like co_ or the current ns_ in which who ever gain the advantage first wins. Exceptions are very very few and epic powershifts in the current version are unheard of. I want to change that. NS doesn't have to be like every other RTS or FPS. I don't want yet another team deathmatch style HL mod. I don't want another cheesy RTS game with quater to half an hour matches. I don't want a game based more on the supernatural can claiming to be a SciFi. (keyword being science, based on logic and fact)

If an advantage didn't give you a distinct chance of winning. We wouldn't call it an advantage now would we. Non-Linear in a RTS/FPS should be determined by strategy and tactics. Not dumbing down one of the marines only clear advantages so the aliens can play even more stupid.
I want to see Powershifts aswell but over critical locations. Losing double res a hive stuff like that. Not because the marines got butchered because someone saw it fit enough to eliminate their advantage.
And all this change will do is cut the balls off the marine team and pretty much cause alien dominance. Couple that with the unchained life forms. And what you get is a massacre not an epic battle.

And no I won't work with you as a team on this idea because I do not agree with it in anyway shape or form

Skulks should die at range. To one guy or 2 guys or to how many every guys. It's like playing Age of Kings and complaining how you can't mass cavalry and kill pikemen super easy. The skulks speed and damage output is countered by range firepower and teamwork. Force that rambo to go into a small room near vents or anything. But when you get caught out in the middle of a damned hallway and get gunned downed. Don't blame imbalance but your own carelessness for being caught with your pants down

Wait. A marine is using his advantage to gain the upperhand on you and deny you access to the rest of the map. Failing to see the issue here.
Here's an idea. Don't let it get to that point. Using valid tactics and strategy that plays into your advantage does not to be changed. If anything it's the mappers fault not the games.

A difference between NS and other RTS such as starcraft is NS is meant to be filled with 6 players while most rts have 100 or so units. Now 1 unit that dies in starcraft will be minimal as opposed to losing a teammate in ns. 5/6 your power or 99/100 your power, which is more devastating.

There are just too many factors in NS such as the difference of RTS units having autoaim as NS players are balanced on missing.

What I'm trying to say is if it took too long to kill players, the game would not progress as smoothly. Less damage would make the game flow slower, and
I think the devs want games to be around 30 minutes to an hour (if I'm not mistaken).

And Maveric: Haven't you seen those 50-1 vets? They make an equal game ultimately biased. Those players, even one of them, can tip the game with the RFK.

You can change damage percentage when starting a server, but I have yet to see a server that doest go 100%, 75 percent I would like to see one day.