At the current state of NS getting a 2nd hive is not really needed but it's useful. And the 3rd hive is worthless. This is mostly due to the fact that the lifeforms are unchained from the hive. So instead of focusing battles at critical locations you have random fights going on with rare instances of a major confrontation until the end game. There's also a painful lack of Perma gorges now. This suggestion may hopefully rectify it
My suggestion is as follows
1. Lifeforms are again rechained: Fade Hive2, Onos Hive3
2. Onos gets a MAJOR HP and armor boost. He should absorb tremendous amount of damage and make it worth getting that 3rd hive.
3. Add a chamber that costs about 25res and grants the next hive ability at the cost of 10res and maybe the gestation time is 1minute so it's not a quickie upgrade.
4. Add 2 resource pools. A gorge and general lifeform pool. When you gorge you get access to this 2nd pool which is represented by a different counter. It gets an increased rate of income (1.5x-2x pending balancing) and can be used to build structures and hives but not lifeforms or upgrades. Only the general lifeform pool can do that thus preventing res whoring. Also the general life form res has some of it siphoned per structure 10 or 20% of the cost would be pretty fair I think
5. Increase hive cost by 10 or so resources to compensate for the increased flow of resource from the gorge
7. Adding 3 more grenades per spawn for a total of 4 when hand grenades are researched. This would make it a pretty viable upgrade and provides a decent counter to the oc walls that we would see as a result from the gorge change
8. Make electricity more costly and weaken affected structure by 50%
The original reason the lifeforms were unchained was to prevent the 2 hive lockdown games which sucked the fun out of 1.04. And as you can see I've added a way for that to be countered. Marines should have a distinct advantage if they can deny the aliens access to tier2 and tier3 technology and be rewarded by not having to see fades or oni incessantly
Thoughts? Suggestions? Removals? Revisions? Flames?
(Edited with updated electricity suggestion)
Full Version: Re-chaining The Lifeforms
Unknown Worlds Forums > Natural Selection > Natural Selection Discussion > Ideas and Suggestions Forum > Ideas for future versions
I wish I wish I wish.
1.04 was balanced. 1.04 was awesome. Don't go "OMG UR FORGET JETPAK RUSH", no, I'm not forgetting it at all, and I remember typing quit in console many times after playing a frustrated game of aliens where I was either unable to stop a heavy train, since acid rocket was useless versus welding heavies, or unable to stop a jetpack rush, but remember the times you were able to stop that jetpack rush? Remember when you got that second hive up, started webbing and started playing on the offensive?
In all reality, using the current flight model, lerks would be able to block the good old JP rush, and once hive 2 pops up the fades would start streaming in to do battle with heavy armour. I seriously believe that this would balance NS again, more-so than any minor or major balance change that will be added in the near future.
That being said, I don't think there's a chance in hell this will happen. Though it would re-introduce hives being important and the good old epic fights, people don't want to even try it anymore. I wish though, nice post, well thought out, you pretty much covered all the bases.
1.04 was balanced. 1.04 was awesome. Don't go "OMG UR FORGET JETPAK RUSH", no, I'm not forgetting it at all, and I remember typing quit in console many times after playing a frustrated game of aliens where I was either unable to stop a heavy train, since acid rocket was useless versus welding heavies, or unable to stop a jetpack rush, but remember the times you were able to stop that jetpack rush? Remember when you got that second hive up, started webbing and started playing on the offensive?
In all reality, using the current flight model, lerks would be able to block the good old JP rush, and once hive 2 pops up the fades would start streaming in to do battle with heavy armour. I seriously believe that this would balance NS again, more-so than any minor or major balance change that will be added in the near future.
That being said, I don't think there's a chance in hell this will happen. Though it would re-introduce hives being important and the good old epic fights, people don't want to even try it anymore. I wish though, nice post, well thought out, you pretty much covered all the bases.
If there's any confusion on the 2 res pools thing I'll make it simple
Pool A is General Lifeform Pool
Pool B is the Gorge Pool
Now a gorge wants to build an OC. He only has 1 res in Pool A and 20 in Pool B. He is unable to do this until he gets another resource from Pool A. Then 10 Res is subtracted from Pool B and 2 res from Pool A. So you just can't lame up an area then go fade/onos afterwards as it will cost you
Pool A is General Lifeform Pool
Pool B is the Gorge Pool
Now a gorge wants to build an OC. He only has 1 res in Pool A and 20 in Pool B. He is unable to do this until he gets another resource from Pool A. Then 10 Res is subtracted from Pool B and 2 res from Pool A. So you just can't lame up an area then go fade/onos afterwards as it will cost you
for porpuses of sorting it would be a good idea to break this up into multiple threads, 1-5 in one and everything else spread out.
But I like the concept.
But I like the concept.
| QUOTE (Bishop X @ Oct 1 2004, 09:08 PM) |
| for porpuses of sorting it would be a good idea to break this up into multiple threads, 1-5 in one and everything else spread out. But I like the concept. |
The reason I included the other ones is because people would pick apart and scream balance issues and moan. With those added ideas I think I shot down most of the complaints that I could think of. But there might be more that I didn't forsee
I'm a bit iffy about the next evolution chamber, but it would allow another JP counter. I think the current lerk flight model would be sufficient enough versus most early game things busted out, and actually make evolving important again. Early game skulk, early to medium game lerk, medium game fade, etc.
Well, from my point of view, the second hive is the game. Once aliens have that second hive, if your constantly scouting, you've won. Just takes a little effort. And those lame 2 hive lock downs are still sucking the life out of NS, with new system, the aliens would have even less chance of breaking that 2 hive lock down (no fades).
Another point - Most people are skulk and when they hit 50 res, then they go to drop the hive. The 2 res pools idea doesn't really help that the skulk going for the hive, unless he goes gorge and waits around all game for res, which isn't much fun either.
What about onos in combat? Would it too get the health/armor boost, or will it cost more points? Need a little clearification there
And what about, this all too common all lame problem, of people going gorge simply to get an increased res flow? I'm sure it would happen. As well, if that didn't happen, your delaying the fade by a couple minutes, so how would one compensate for that?
I do like the idea of the gorge getting extra resources, but it has always had some flaws. Any ideas on how to address them? I'm not sure if I'm mentioning this all.
P.S. - Let's not talk about 1.04, tbh it's not about 1.04, it's about a dual res pool system that may have been implemented in 1.04. :insert biggest roll eyes ever:
Another point - Most people are skulk and when they hit 50 res, then they go to drop the hive. The 2 res pools idea doesn't really help that the skulk going for the hive, unless he goes gorge and waits around all game for res, which isn't much fun either.
What about onos in combat? Would it too get the health/armor boost, or will it cost more points? Need a little clearification there
And what about, this all too common all lame problem, of people going gorge simply to get an increased res flow? I'm sure it would happen. As well, if that didn't happen, your delaying the fade by a couple minutes, so how would one compensate for that?
I do like the idea of the gorge getting extra resources, but it has always had some flaws. Any ideas on how to address them? I'm not sure if I'm mentioning this all.
P.S. - Let's not talk about 1.04, tbh it's not about 1.04, it's about a dual res pool system that may have been implemented in 1.04. :insert biggest roll eyes ever:
I'm big on rebalancing NS to a more 1.04 style. I think your system is too complex for the implementation of chained lifeforms. Perhaps dropping the unnecessary evolve chambers and the marine res things would help.
The big thing about this change is that the game would need to be completely rebalanced to give skulks and lerks a better fighting ability for the first 10 minutes or so.
Since getting that second hive up would be even more critical than it is now, the game target time would need to be lengthened accordingly to support the new balance.
It's good thinking though. Bring back the RTS to NS.
The big thing about this change is that the game would need to be completely rebalanced to give skulks and lerks a better fighting ability for the first 10 minutes or so.
Since getting that second hive up would be even more critical than it is now, the game target time would need to be lengthened accordingly to support the new balance.
It's good thinking though. Bring back the RTS to NS.
It could work, but it might be too limiting on the kharra. Perhaps only the onos could be tied to the 3rd hive, with an appropriate HP/AP boost. (And an increased cost in co_ maps.)
Alkiller, read the post again. You do not get additional normal resoures while gorging, so the 1.04 strat of going gorge to res lame isn't viable anymore.
Dragon_Mech, if you're only going to tie the onos down that way, hive 3 and the onos will rarely/never see use again.
Dragon_Mech, if you're only going to tie the onos down that way, hive 3 and the onos will rarely/never see use again.
| QUOTE |
| Another point - Most people are skulk and when they hit 50 res, then they go to drop the hive. The 2 res pools idea doesn't really help that the skulk going for the hive, unless he goes gorge and waits around all game for res, which isn't much fun either. |
That's wonderful but perma-gorges are all but dead. With this idea you focus on protecting your builders. And if you played any strategy game the builders are extremely vital. Also with the increased resflow he isn't waiting around. He'll constantly be on the move building new structures and supporting aliens. Make him worth something more than an upgrade/hive spewing thing. Make him a potent offensive and defensive asset while making him vulnerable by not buffing his attacks and such. We should see lots of OC's near hives not the 1 or 2 we maybe see per game
| QUOTE |
| And what about, this all too common all lame problem, of people going gorge simply to get an increased res flow? I'm sure it would happen. As well, if that didn't happen, your delaying the fade by a couple minutes, so how would one compensate for that? |
Reread #4 and then tear apart my idea .You obviously didn't
| QUOTE |
| I'm a bit iffy about the next evolution chamber, but it would allow another JP counter. I think the current lerk flight model would be sufficient enough versus most early game things busted out, and actually make evolving important again. Early game skulk, early to medium game lerk, medium game fade, etc. |
It's not so much to add a counter to a jetpack as it is to help in cracking those 2 hive lockdowns by giving gorge access to bilebomb at hive1 albeit at a cost
| QUOTE |
| I'm big on rebalancing NS to a more 1.04 style. I think your system is too complex for the implementation of chained lifeforms. Perhaps dropping the unnecessary evolve chambers and the marine res things would help. The big thing about this change is that the game would need to be completely rebalanced to give skulks and lerks a better fighting ability for the first 10 minutes or so. Since getting that second hive up would be even more critical than it is now, the game target time would need to be lengthened accordingly to support the new balance. It's good thinking though. Bring back the RTS to NS. |
I think the ability chamber is needed to prevent 2 hive lock downs becoming extremely prevalent.
IMHO lerks are fine as they are right now (I'd kill for spike back though) and skulks are ok. They should get a slight speed boost to help close the distance faster but I'd rather not see them anymore durable as they are a skirmishing unit and not a main assault force.
I think the best way to help the aliens early game is to slow down the marines slightly. Tech researches slower or more expensive something along those lines.
Also after further review of my idea I'm going to remove the extraneous crap that I feel shouldn't belong in my suggestion.
| QUOTE (Wither @ Oct 1 2004, 03:32 PM) |
| Dragon_Mech, if you're only going to tie the onos down that way, hive 3 and the onos will rarely/never see use again. |
It will whenever marines are turtling in MS or any other point on the map and not moving. Also the threat of a much tougher onos will encourage marines to move out of base in combat.
I approve of this idea. Not because I like it, but because I hate rez ****! *this n00bish team suck0rz! It didn't put up the 2nd hive* says the 1hive onos.
But hey, you get rez for killing, you should get rez for supporting and building as well.
But hey, you get rez for killing, you should get rez for supporting and building as well.
I missed reading one sentence. Sue me.
Add the res pool counter to the general alien HUD as well, so that skulk can see when he's ready to drop the hive. Although I do see problems with one unintelligent gorge dropping 4 OCs in one spot thus wasting the res needed for a hive.
How much res would the gorge pool start out with though?
Add the res pool counter to the general alien HUD as well, so that skulk can see when he's ready to drop the hive. Although I do see problems with one unintelligent gorge dropping 4 OCs in one spot thus wasting the res needed for a hive.
How much res would the gorge pool start out with though?
Possibly 20 per gorge. And every gorge gains it just like the current res system so having more than 1 gorge is perfectly fine. And the mildly retarded gorge will just waste his own res pool and not screw the other alien players over.
Ok, I'm a little confused ( 
)
So each player gets 25 res in the normal pool, and 20 res in the gorge pool. Res is delivered the same way, except that for every 1 res in the normal pool, you get 2 in the gorge pool?
)So each player gets 25 res in the normal pool, and 20 res in the gorge pool. Res is delivered the same way, except that for every 1 res in the normal pool, you get 2 in the gorge pool?
| QUOTE (Alkiller @ Oct 1 2004, 06:47 PM) |
| Ok, I'm a little confused ( ) So each player gets 25 res in the normal pool, and 20 res in the gorge pool. Res is delivered the same way, except that for every 1 res in the normal pool, you get 2 in the gorge pool? |
The idea is to promote building. Since people tend not to build structures because they want to save the rez for a higher life form, the idea is that with another rez pool(builders pool) players would be more encouraged to help out with base building.
no. no second res pool, just no. too much to think about. if you really care about people hoarding res just tie the onos to second hive and increase the fade's 1-hive cost somehow to 60 or so.
we have enough people who dont know how to gorge effectively, im probably one of them. this would, in my mind, turn people further away from the gorge.
as it is in B5, a gorge rush would almost be better than a skulk rush anyway, two/three devoted healers and three/four attackers can overrun the marine start early since gorges are stronger HP/AP wise and spit deals 30 damage. and it's ranged.
id rather have people start as a gorge at 15 res, but respawn as skulks if they die. then again, you could just spam 3 dcs, four Rts, and then the aliens would have a massive res surge.
i dont care if my idea even gets looked at. i just dont want to use the one suggested in the first post. it would confuse people and the new converts even more.
we have enough people who dont know how to gorge effectively, im probably one of them. this would, in my mind, turn people further away from the gorge.
as it is in B5, a gorge rush would almost be better than a skulk rush anyway, two/three devoted healers and three/four attackers can overrun the marine start early since gorges are stronger HP/AP wise and spit deals 30 damage. and it's ranged.
id rather have people start as a gorge at 15 res, but respawn as skulks if they die. then again, you could just spam 3 dcs, four Rts, and then the aliens would have a massive res surge.
i dont care if my idea even gets looked at. i just dont want to use the one suggested in the first post. it would confuse people and the new converts even more.
| QUOTE (crazyperson42 @ Oct 1 2004, 07:25 PM) |
| no. no second res pool, just no. too much to think about. if you really care about people hoarding res just tie the onos to second hive and increase the fade's 1-hive cost somehow to 60 or so. we have enough people who dont know how to gorge effectively, im probably one of them. this would, in my mind, turn people further away from the gorge. as it is in B5, a gorge rush would almost be better than a skulk rush anyway, two/three devoted healers and three/four attackers can overrun the marine start early since gorges are stronger HP/AP wise and spit deals 30 damage. and it's ranged. id rather have people start as a gorge at 15 res, but respawn as skulks if they die. then again, you could just spam 3 dcs, four Rts, and then the aliens would have a massive res surge. i dont care if my idea even gets looked at. i just dont want to use the one suggested in the first post. it would confuse people and the new converts even more. |
Gonna have to disagree... if Fades costed more then ppl would still horde rez to get them.
We have to promote building. Problem is that most players see dropping rez towers or chambers as a loss instead of an investment. A second pool, I believe, would eliminate those false fears.
| QUOTE |
| no. no second res pool, just no. too much to think about. if you really care about people hoarding res just tie the onos to second hive and increase the fade's 1-hive cost somehow to 60 or so. |
This isn't about res hoarding and frankly I don't care if people hoard res. This is about bringing some more depth to NS classic and put more focus on areas and actually have battles instead of randomly killing skulks for 10minutes
| QUOTE |
| we have enough people who dont know how to gorge effectively, im probably one of them. this would, in my mind, turn people further away from the gorge. |
Turn who away from gorge? I can count on one hand the people who actually perma gorge. This idea makes gorges useful besides puking out upgrade chambers and hives.
| QUOTE |
| Ok, I'm a little confused So each player gets 25 res in the normal pool, and 20 res in the gorge pool. Res is delivered the same way, except that for every 1 res in the normal pool, you get 2 in the gorge pool? |
That's exactly it. Couldn't have put it better myself. Although the actual flow would be adjusted in playtesting to make it balanced.
Notepad person does it again!
NLS and this are two winnar ideas that will never see the light of day D:
NLS and this are two winnar ideas that will never see the light of day D:
That's not an idea, that's a plethora of ideas. As spammy as it may seem when you've got a ton of ideas to offer, please post them seperately so that I can rip them apart individually-- er, so that they can be moved to the proper subforums individually if any of them are considered.
It's not a plethora ideas. It's a series of ideas that compliment one another to help promote balance in a Re-Chained lifeform system. The system alone won't stand up without the supporting things around it. If I were to post just the rechaining of the lifeforms what do you think would happen? I forsaw this and eliminated that issue. And by all means tear apart my ideas that's why it's here. So it can be looked over, considered, revised and ultimately either rejected or accepted
I'll have to agree. If he posted re-chain the lifeforms in one thread without the support ideas, it would get ripped apart. Now it's actually viable.
I'm not sure if I'm understanding perfectly.
See what I understood was that there was a universal gorge pool, and that for every player there is, there is let's say, 15 more res in the gorge pool (enough for one rt), but any gorge can use the res in the gorge pool. Am I correct? Or am I missing another sentence?
See what I understood was that there was a universal gorge pool, and that for every player there is, there is let's say, 15 more res in the gorge pool (enough for one rt), but any gorge can use the res in the gorge pool. Am I correct? Or am I missing another sentence?
I fully support this idea; I have wanted chained lifeforms back since 2.0 was released.
No, chained lifeforms are a bad idea.
Why? Relocate to a hive. Even if the aliens have all the res on the map, they don't have onoses to seige you. If the aliens can afford onoses, they should get onoses.
Also, rather than giving the gorge some bizarre "structure res" just lower the cost of alien buildings. For instance, the alien res tower should be cheaper.
Why? Relocate to a hive. Even if the aliens have all the res on the map, they don't have onoses to seige you. If the aliens can afford onoses, they should get onoses.
Also, rather than giving the gorge some bizarre "structure res" just lower the cost of alien buildings. For instance, the alien res tower should be cheaper.
| QUOTE (Theki11er @ Oct 2 2004, 06:12 PM) |
| No, chained lifeforms are a bad idea. Why? Relocate to a hive. Even if the aliens have all the res on the map, they don't have onoses to seige you. If the aliens can afford onoses, they should get onoses. Also, rather than giving the gorge some bizarre "structure res" just lower the cost of alien buildings. For instance, the alien res tower should be cheaper. |
You're telling me that currently the onos is the counter to marine hive relocations?
Hehe. Fades.
This isn't the way to go if you want hives to be more important. Instead of chaining lifeforms to hives again, improve 2nd and 3rd hive abilities or maybe chain damage bonuses to number of hives (in a way similar to armor absorption).
One of my main gripes of 1.04 was that the onos barely saw any combat since once aliens got the 3rd hive, they pretty much already won. All lifeforms available at hive 1 allows the onos to play a larger role in the game.
You seem to want NS to focus more on a hive battle instead of RT battle. I kinda agree with this position to some extent, since playing a game when you lack RTs isn't really fun. Nevertheless, there are other ways to fix this besides bringing back lifeform-hive chainage and all its unpleasantness. For ex: decrease cost of alien RTs, forcing marines to keep scouting and moving to prevent fast alien RT expansion. Or: give aliens a small innate res flow so marines can't just sit by idly once they control most of the map.
2 hive lockdowns is still a viable strat, but it is indeed far less viable. According to your argument, unchaining lifeforms from hives was supposed to make 2 hives lockdowns far less boring, but the act of unchaining lowered the importance of hives, so marines are less inclined to use the 2 hive lockdown strat. And I agree. BUT: instead of chaining lifeforms to hives again, the importance of the hive can be increased in other ways. I've already mentioned more powerful 2nd and 3rd hive abilities and chaining damage to hives. Or how about increasing the effect upgrades have on skulks? Another way is to provide a direct bonus to marines if they control a hive.
Introducing a new chamber, would require new artwork and coding. Keep lifeforms unchained from hives, and the new chamber is unnecessary. That's not my main point - the previous paragraphs are my main points. Not needing a new chamber is simply a bonus.
I've thought about the 2 res pool idea before, and I'm mixed on it. It would require some other overall change to work, and I don't want that change to be lifeform-hive chainage.
Increasing the number of hand nades per marine is a good idea but itself, but it should be a 3 step upgrade like the other marine upgrades. Upgrade once - 1 nade, twice - 2 nades, thrice - 3 nades.
One of my main gripes of 1.04 was that the onos barely saw any combat since once aliens got the 3rd hive, they pretty much already won. All lifeforms available at hive 1 allows the onos to play a larger role in the game.
You seem to want NS to focus more on a hive battle instead of RT battle. I kinda agree with this position to some extent, since playing a game when you lack RTs isn't really fun. Nevertheless, there are other ways to fix this besides bringing back lifeform-hive chainage and all its unpleasantness. For ex: decrease cost of alien RTs, forcing marines to keep scouting and moving to prevent fast alien RT expansion. Or: give aliens a small innate res flow so marines can't just sit by idly once they control most of the map.
2 hive lockdowns is still a viable strat, but it is indeed far less viable. According to your argument, unchaining lifeforms from hives was supposed to make 2 hives lockdowns far less boring, but the act of unchaining lowered the importance of hives, so marines are less inclined to use the 2 hive lockdown strat. And I agree. BUT: instead of chaining lifeforms to hives again, the importance of the hive can be increased in other ways. I've already mentioned more powerful 2nd and 3rd hive abilities and chaining damage to hives. Or how about increasing the effect upgrades have on skulks? Another way is to provide a direct bonus to marines if they control a hive.
Introducing a new chamber, would require new artwork and coding. Keep lifeforms unchained from hives, and the new chamber is unnecessary. That's not my main point - the previous paragraphs are my main points. Not needing a new chamber is simply a bonus.
I've thought about the 2 res pool idea before, and I'm mixed on it. It would require some other overall change to work, and I don't want that change to be lifeform-hive chainage.
Increasing the number of hand nades per marine is a good idea but itself, but it should be a 3 step upgrade like the other marine upgrades. Upgrade once - 1 nade, twice - 2 nades, thrice - 3 nades.
| QUOTE (Crono5788 @ Oct 2 2004, 12:50 AM) |
| Notepad person does it again! NLS and this are two winnar ideas that will never see the light of day D: |
Golf clap.
| QUOTE (Alkiller @ Oct 2 2004, 04:55 PM) |
| I'm not sure if I'm understanding perfectly. See what I understood was that there was a universal gorge pool, and that for every player there is, there is let's say, 15 more res in the gorge pool (enough for one rt), but any gorge can use the res in the gorge pool. Am I correct? Or am I missing another sentence? |
It's just an added res flow in a seperate personal pool to prevent res whoring for fades
| QUOTE |
| One of my main gripes of 1.04 was that the onos barely saw any combat since once aliens got the 3rd hive, they pretty much already won. All lifeforms available at hive 1 allows the onos to play a larger role in the game. |
The only role an onos plays in classic is for some putz to run around devouring people typing LOL after every kill. Atleast is 1.04 when you got an Onos he was actually useful besides a glorified meatshield.
| QUOTE |
| You seem to want NS to focus more on a hive battle instead of RT battle. I kinda agree with this position to some extent, since playing a game when you lack RTs isn't really fun. Nevertheless, there are other ways to fix this besides bringing back lifeform-hive chainage and all its unpleasantness. For ex: decrease cost of alien RTs, forcing marines to keep scouting and moving to prevent fast alien RT expansion. Or: give aliens a small innate res flow so marines can't just sit by idly once they control most of the map. |
I want it to focus on both. I truly truly miss the games where locations actually meant something. NS right now has very few major confrontations. It's usually a bunch of skulks chewing RT's as the marines move on to cap the next one. Real exciting and tons of strategy there.
| QUOTE |
| Introducing a new chamber, would require new artwork and coding. Keep lifeforms unchained from hives, and the new chamber is unnecessary. That's not my main point - the previous paragraphs are my main points. Not needing a new chamber is simply a bonus. |
If they could add coding for picking up ammo from guns and the appropriate models for each. And also a handgrenade model which is used about twice every 40 games. I'm sure they could manage to create a new chamber and some coding
Personally not getting a 2nd hive until 10minutes or beyond should be extremely costly and damned near suicidal. Aliens should be penalized for not getting that 2nd hive. And marines should be rewarded for preventing them from going up.
I'm iffy about it then chem, because what about the person who saves for fade? He's gonna have about 100 res in his gorge pool sitting around for nothing 
THe gorge pool only starts accumulating when you go gorge. It promotes perma gorging and if you want a midgame gorge it shouldn't be a problem since hopefully by then you'll have 4 nodes going. 8res per tick for your gorge pool will fill it up pretty fast
hm... besides that this idea increases the occurance of 2 hive lockdowns, it would prevent reshogging to some extend. also, this could enable the devs to unchain the chambers in a try... 'cause, since the uber-units are chained, there is not much more power in the aliens...
and yeah, gorge pool is a must. but it should be global, stored partialy in the hive and the 'free' aliens should be able to spend their res for the gorges.
hive is treated as an autonomous player in res share, each gorge has access to a maximum % of the hive-pool.
and yeah, gorge pool is a must. but it should be global, stored partialy in the hive and the 'free' aliens should be able to spend their res for the gorges.
hive is treated as an autonomous player in res share, each gorge has access to a maximum % of the hive-pool.
I'm in favor of anything that makes hives more significant.
--Scythe--
--Scythe--
The mere fact that it costs 25 res (another gorge needed), and the fact it costs a whopping 10 res that doesnt guarentee much (ooh leap), means that games come down to marines shotgunning your 2nd hive. You have no early fade to protect that hive, and its not like skulks can effectively break a turreted siege position with marines phasing through. What your doing is putting so much pressure on that 2nd hive that all future NS games will depend on the 2nd hive being put up. This means you'll linearize NS to the point where thats all you depend on.
Putting pressure on aliens to force them up the tech tree instead of saving for fade at hive1? As I said the best way to balance this would be slow down the marine tech. And if the marines can get a phase and tfac outside your hive they deserve the win.
NS right now is linear as hell right now
2 nodes at the most dropped by people
3 DC's and then the fades come
It's like this every game over and over.
Atleast with my suggestions the battle intensity would increase and gasp so what if 2 hive lockdowns come back. IT"S STRATEGY. To deny the alien team access to a 2nd hive and keep them at tier1 should guarantee a win provided you don't die to a sudden base rush. NS originally was a RTS/FPS hybrid but over 2.0 - 3.0b5 it has degenerated into a glorified TeamDM game
NS right now is linear as hell right now
2 nodes at the most dropped by people
3 DC's and then the fades come
It's like this every game over and over.
Atleast with my suggestions the battle intensity would increase and gasp so what if 2 hive lockdowns come back. IT"S STRATEGY. To deny the alien team access to a 2nd hive and keep them at tier1 should guarantee a win provided you don't die to a sudden base rush. NS originally was a RTS/FPS hybrid but over 2.0 - 3.0b5 it has degenerated into a glorified TeamDM game
Explain to me how this adds more strategy. How does this give the aliens more choices to make vs what we have now?
| QUOTE (Chem @ Oct 1 2004, 08:48 PM) |
| At the current state of NS getting a 2nd hive is not really needed but it's useful. And the 3rd hive is worthless. |
Where is your proof of these totally unblanced opinions?
Let's nerf this post like the creator's suggesting we nerf the game.
PS: neat idea, if not a bit wonkey. I personally think there should be TWO gameplay modes for NS: one more in the Non-RFK Lifeform-chained 1.04 style, and one in the 3.0 style as it is right now.
I played 1.04.. Hives were all that mattered back then.. RT's meant nothing.. 2 hive lockdowns proved that.. Aliens all had 33 res with 100's in reserve (and every RT on the map) and couldn't do anything against a correctly issued 2 hive lock down. How does your idea handle that issue? (I skimmed, and didn't see this anywhere but if you have addressed this, let me know)
I'm normally against multiple ideas in one thread, but... The grenade idea etc were added specifically to counter arguements to this idea as a whole.. So in this rare, very well written case, I'll allow it since it shows the creator was thinking well of eventualities.
I'm normally against multiple ideas in one thread, but... The grenade idea etc were added specifically to counter arguements to this idea as a whole.. So in this rare, very well written case, I'll allow it since it shows the creator was thinking well of eventualities.
| QUOTE (LazerMane @ Oct 3 2004, 06:53 AM) |
| Where is your proof of these totally unblanced opinions? Let's nerf this post like the creator's suggesting we nerf the game. |
Proof? Ever play a game of NS classic? How many times can you say "wow thank god that 3rd hive got up becuase without we were screwed!" It was said in 1.04. It's never said now. It is uncommon to actually see the benefits of the second hive (ie - umbra, bilebomb, etc) used to determine the outcome of a game. It is just what Chem said - 3 DCs, a couple of fades, and that's game. (either the fades kill the marines or they die and the marines eventually win)
| QUOTE |
| 2 hive lock down. How does your idea handle that issue? |
He suggets a chamber that allows access to next level ability. Umbra + Bile with some skulk support could tear apart a two hive lockdown - assuming the aliens have enough res to get their next abilities (aliens took over the res nodes - marines just went for hives so there is a trade off - on one hand a team has a majority of res nodes, on the other one team has 2 hive rooms - both teams should be able to win in this situation)
I'll reiterate: improve hive abilities, especially 3rd hive ones, instead of bringing back lifeform-hive chainage.
DONT CHAIN LIFEFORMS. WORST IDEA EVER!
If they were chained, marines would just ALWAYS try to cap 2 hives and lockdown. We saw it before. It sucked. If marines got 2 hives, you basically just lost by default. Theres little you can do to turn the game around. #1 source of Alien F4's back then.
Chaining Lifeforms will just limit peoples choices and tactics. And I'm SURE it will hurt aliens, NOT help them. Marine strategey will basically just focus on the 2 Hive lockdown, so besides Mariens getting an advantage, they will basically become repetative and unimaginative. They simply wont try anything else. BORING.
The Key to making NS Roxor more is to allow more options and tactics. More ways of playing leads to games that are unique and non-repetative. Limiting Aliens like this just limits the potential.
If they were chained, marines would just ALWAYS try to cap 2 hives and lockdown. We saw it before. It sucked. If marines got 2 hives, you basically just lost by default. Theres little you can do to turn the game around. #1 source of Alien F4's back then.
Chaining Lifeforms will just limit peoples choices and tactics. And I'm SURE it will hurt aliens, NOT help them. Marine strategey will basically just focus on the 2 Hive lockdown, so besides Mariens getting an advantage, they will basically become repetative and unimaginative. They simply wont try anything else. BORING.
The Key to making NS Roxor more is to allow more options and tactics. More ways of playing leads to games that are unique and non-repetative. Limiting Aliens like this just limits the potential.
| QUOTE (BlueTorpeedo @ Oct 3 2004, 11:34 PM) |
| DONT CHAIN LIFEFORMS. WORST IDEA EVER! If they were chained, marines would just ALWAYS try to cap 2 hives and lockdown. We saw it before. It sucked. If marines got 2 hives, you basically just lost by default. Theres little you can do to turn the game around. #1 source of Alien F4's back then. Chaining Lifeforms will just limit peoples choices and tactics. And I'm SURE it will hurt aliens, NOT help them. Marine strategey will basically just focus on the 2 Hive lockdown, so besides Mariens getting an advantage, they will basically become repetative and unimaginative. They simply wont try anything else. BORING. The Key to making NS Roxor more is to allow more options and tactics. More ways of playing leads to games that are unique and non-repetative. Limiting Aliens like this just limits the potential. |
I take it you just read the topic.
My suggestion chains the lifeforms but gives the aliens the ability to spread their influence like wildfire due to the gorge pool. It's hard to take a hive with un upgraded marines when there's 3 or 4 oc's being healed by a gorge and an agitated skulk waiting to rip you a new one. If the marine strategy is focused on denying you on 2 hives you adjust your tactics to counter that or work around that.
It's rather simple. If needed you can slow down the marine tech. And besides if they're spending res on Turrets and phases they're not getting upgrades so they'll be easy pickings for skulks and lerks.
It's all about trade offs. Get upgrades but you lack major defenses and resources. Expand rapidly and you risk overextending your forces and losing all your RT's. Go for hives you miss out on nodes and the ability to tech rapidly.
Each one of these has a counter.
| QUOTE |
| If the marine strategy is focused on denying you on 2 hives you adjust your tactics to counter that or work around that. |
I dont have a problem doing that, I have a problem with them doing that EVERY ROUND (or, at least trying to), which they will, because there is so much to gain if they succede, and so much to lose if they dont. Every round COM will say, F@#$ RTs guys... get me 2 hives!
Heres what very game would be like. COM will relocate to a hive, lock it, drop a few shotties, send everyone to 2nd hive and lock it. Then they just sit there and tech up before taking the last one. With no fades or onos the game is won for them. And this will happen over and over. The game will always be decided in the 1st 5 minutes. The "BIG BATTLE" will always be for hive #2. BORING. A different res system makes little difference. A gorg can spam OCs... WOW. Those weak and immobile OC's are really going to win the game for ya.
| QUOTE |
| If needed you can slow down the marine tech. |
Ya, slow down their tech, while our tech is COMPLETELY STOPPED.
The best alternative that we have right now to get our poor gorgies some extra res is to allow people to "give res" to gorgs. If you have played with that plugin, then you know what I mean. It works pretty well.
| QUOTE |
| I dont have a problem doing that, I have a problem with them doing that EVERY ROUND (or, at least trying to), which they will, because there is so much to gain if they succede, and so much to lose if they dont. Every round COM will say, F@#$ RTs guys... get me 2 hives! |
Then beat them to the punch. And how is that any different then what the aliens do with getting fades and DC's over and over. And ontop of that they're countering marine tier2 technology at hive1. That's just wrong
| QUOTE |
| Heres what very game would be like. COM will relocate to a hive, lock it, drop a few shotties, send everyone to 2nd hive and lock it. Then they just sit there and tech up before taking the last one. With no fades or onos the game is won for them. And this will happen over and over. The game will always be decided in the 1st 5 minutes. The "BIG BATTLE" will always be for hive #2. BORING. A different res system makes little difference. A gorg can spam OCs... WOW. Those weak and immobile OC's are really going to win the game for ya. |
Relocation is a viable strategy and the entire marine team is vulnerable during that time to the hive. Also SentrySteve's Node Link System would be a good way to limit relocations.
The aliens will have fades provided they have a 2nd hive. And if they lock down 2 hives? You get that chamber I suggested and get umbra and bile and tear apart their minibase,
A big battle over a critical location as opposed to the semi large battle of 2 fades rushing the base when the marines are gone and then spawn camping for 5 minutes and hunting down the remaining marines. What fun there! Atleast have the major battle be a pivotal point in the game not the end of it,
And OC's won't win a game but they will slow down a marine advance to a halt buying time for reinforcements to arrive. Sorry if my suggestion implies teamwork but you know what's funny. Not since 1.04 have I seen a lerk actually bother umbraing or really good organized rush except maybe a grand total of 5 times. It's all people hording res until they can get fade then screaming at people to drop 3 dc's
Sorry if my suggestion forces teamwork on people but the best way to get teamwork in a game is to cram it down the masses throats. 1.04 did this on the alien team (1 gorge, lerks umbraing fades remember that)
You are completely missing the point. Chaining the Evolutions will make every game dependent on a 2 hive lock down. EVEN IF ALIENS HAVE THE ENTIRE REST OF THE MAP WITH TONS OF RES THEY CANT WIN. Coms are smart, they will know this. So, every game the Com is going to try to do a 2 Hive lock down at all costs if they want to win. EVERY GAME. Sounds fun... doing it that same way every time.
Most importantly it would also totally nerfs Aliens; If they lose the battle to secure and hold Hive 2 until Fades and/or Onos appear, they cant make a come back. But, if marines dont secure a second hive, they can still put up a good fight, and can still win. We had Chained Evolutions back in the day and it didnt work out.
Most importantly it would also totally nerfs Aliens; If they lose the battle to secure and hold Hive 2 until Fades and/or Onos appear, they cant make a come back. But, if marines dont secure a second hive, they can still put up a good fight, and can still win. We had Chained Evolutions back in the day and it didnt work out.
| QUOTE (BlueTorpeedo @ Oct 4 2004, 03:58 AM) |
| You are completely missing the point. Chaining the Evolutions will make every game dependent on a 2 hive lock down. EVEN IF ALIENS HAVE THE ENTIRE REST OF THE MAP WITH TONS OF RES THEY CANT WIN. Coms are smart, they will know this. So, every game the Com is going to try to do a 2 Hive lock down at all costs if they want to win. EVERY GAME. Sounds fun... doing it that same way every time. Most importantly it would also totally nerfs Aliens; If they lose the battle to secure and hold Hive 2 until Fades and/or Onos appear, they cant make a come back. But, if marines dont secure a second hive, they can still put up a good fight, and can still win. We had Chained Evolutions back in the day and it didnt work out. |
You're not reading my post. I already addressed this and yet you're not comprehending.
Aliens would get a 4th chamber with this system that grants the next hive ability for a 10 res upgrade cost. That gives you bile/umbra/leap. Bile and umbra alone should be enough to crack a decent hive lockdown of a pg/tfac. It gives the aliens a chance and a damned decent one at that. So instead of having rambo regen fades running amok across the map killing every RT/Outpost you have a coordinated effort to crack that lock down with lerks and gorges.
Also you keep bringing up Hive1 aliens losing. Tier1 SHOULD ALWAYS LOSE vs HIGHER TIER MARINES ALWAYS.Unless they of course lose because of stupidity or a surprise base rush. It's common sense.
And with my gorge res thing I think the aliens can get a 2nd hive up fairly quickly provided they can cap 2 additional nodes.
I've said it atleast 4 times now but slow down the marine tech along with this and it has the potential for being extremely intense, balanced and strategy orientied. If a comm goes straight for hive lock downs then hit him where it hurts. Tech buildings and res towers. it costs about 45-50 res to put a minimal presence in a hive and that's without a phasegate. Lockdowns are extreme investments in money so what they have in territory they lack in tech. Use that. Instead of whining about how you can't go fade and kill every damned RT and outpost by yourself at hive1 you'll have to *gasp* work with your team to accomplish a similar feat. Forcing teamwork works.
Yes we had chained evolutions back in 1.04. Along with dirt cheap infinite fuel jetpacks. HMG's that ripped apart hives in 1 clip. The vent hitbox bug. The barely working blink. There were a ton of other issues other than the 2 hive lockdown. Hives should win and lose games. They should be extremely vital with battles suddenly swinging one way or another because of the loss or gain of one. Imagine being marines and losing a hive to the aliens. You know those fades are going to come knocking on your base door any minute so you scramble together a rush that may or may not retake said hive. A massive battle ensews in which either the hive goes up and the marines get cut down or the hive goes down and the marines start dictating the pace of battle again. NS once had that kind of intensity to it and this would hopefully bring that back once again
I blindly agree.
I do too.
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