Hey folks. I don't know about you, but I became interested in Natural-Selection, not for the FPS/RTS hybrid, but for the atmosphere I imagined it would have, and the thing that really drew me towards the mod was the promise of ambushing. No, I'm not talking about sitting behind a box and waiting for someone to walk by so you can shoot them, I'm talking about using the little niches in the map to surprise marines. Honestly, it was the best source of that sort of "Will I be able to ambush him/ An enemy could be anywhere" tension that my machine could handle. Still is.

I'm a big fan of ambushing, and it's a great source of the atmosphere that keeps me playing this mod. So you can imagine how dissapointed I am when many ambushing attempts in non-obvious places are foiled by having a leg (or your nose) beyond a ledge/corner when from your point of view you are hidden. My suggestion is (hopefully) simple. Stick the skulk POV in the head, instead of it's middle. While it doesn't address the issue of many maps lacking ambushing spots beyond "Vent #4" or "Above door #2", it does allow people to see if attempting to hide in a seemingly awesome little niche (Perhaps a pillar attatched to a wall, or a little indent around the corner from an elevator) would work or not.

I suppose everyone in Natural Selection who enjoys actually ambushing (instead of bunnyhopping around or running straight up into a marine's face) could get a friend and check every single possible ambushing spot in every official and custom map, to see if a bit of them sticks out and ruins the possibility of an ambush, but I figure just sticking the skulk POV in the head might help this. Naturally, easier ambushing could lead to marines traveling in groups again, instead of ramboing out and capping half the RTs on the map alone during early game. That would just be a side bonus.

Many maps have alot of places that appear to be valid ambushing places, but simply aren't. Do me a favor and help bring some fun to ambushing/making it more viable, and giving that lone marine something to fear again (And naturally, giving the few of us who enjoy the element of surprise our thrill). It certainly seems easier than editing every map to improve those little would-be ambush spots. I hear it's going to be easier to stay on ceilings, and not fall due to some small aesthetic detail, so I won't get into the difficulty of utilizing ceilings seriously.

If I'm assuming something incorrect about the ability to change the POV of a skulk, or missing basically anything that could be detrimental to gameplay from this change, please point it out. Do me a favor and keep other ideas in their own thread, and keep the criticism generally constructive. I'd like to have a broader view on my own idea through the thoughts of others, not be flamed with no real reason lying behind it beyond a person not agreeing with the idea.

the only problem I see is the bite animation, it wouldnt make sense if say, the POV was where the eyes were. It also wouldnt cover the screen during a bite (I've never actually noticed it doing this, WTH?)

I might be misreading you, but I've been getting alot of PMs with misunderstandings. People think I want the model changed in some way, when all I really want is the viewpoint moved forward. I believe it is currently in the stomach area of the skulk, and I would like it to be placed in the head. I don't think the v_model would need to be changed at all. As it is, having the POV in the stomach doesn't explain the bite animation very well either. I hope I'm not completely misunderstanding what you mean, here, so correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree - I can pick off skulks that think they are hidden way too easily.

Ness - they only way to implement anything like this would be, of course, to allow a third person view. This in itself can not be allowed because a third person view can be used to cheat by looking around corners. There would be no way to effectivly determine exactly where your skulk is positioned otherwise - and eventually if you actually play the maps you get a good feel for exactly what position your skulk is in and what make good ambush locations.

Even if we moved the viewpoint further forward, what's keeping you from accidently having your back sticking out? Or a leg? Or the side of your head? Without a third person view, it's impossible to know without former experience if X location is a good hiding spot.

So, what you do is you play the maps - as either side. If you see a skulk use a good hiding spot, you note it. If you're a marine and get bamboozled by a skulk - well, you KNOW that's a good hiding spot too. If you try to hide somewhere, and get killed, then that is not a good hiding spot. This is clearly one of those no-solution problems. Because, if we implemnt your suggestion, who's to say that someone else will say it makes hiding harder? Or, who's to say it's allready forward enough. If we implement the suggestion, it could have little or no effect, or a negitive one, and I belive that chance is greater then any percieved positive result that could come from this.

What I'm trying to say in review is: Just because moving the viewpoint forward may make it easier for you to hide doesn't prove it would make it easier for anyone else to hide - or if even moving the viewpoint forward would help at all.

Sure it would make it easier. The way the skulk viewpoint works right now is counter-intuitive. Where you see your teeth from your PoV is actually about a foot, in game terms, behind where they actually are. Just like trying to hide with an invisible arm stuck straight out in front of you. If the view came from the actual front of the alien, you could know when you're sticking around a corner or not. This affects most aliens to some degree. Onos can be shot before they can even see around a corner. And while we're on the subject, the HA viewpoint is pretty odd as well, it comes out somewhere around his chest/stomach. It's always odd to be in a heavy train and see everyone else as if they were so much taller than you.

I don't understand how you'd think that a 3rd person view would be needed. In any other game, you almost always know when you're sticking around a corner or not, because almost every other game uses human characters. So the viewpoint being just about smack in the middle of the model doesn't hurt anything. But when you're longer than you are tall, like our poor friend the skulk, and you still see things from somewhere around your center of horizontal rotation, you're hard pressed to know how well that box is actually hiding you. Never mind that if you get too close to an edge and strafe a bit, your whole visible model might whip out randomly in some direction, and you won't know about it until a marine starts blasting away at you. Aliens should probably be capable of strafing without their whole model turning in that dirction. But that's getting waaaay off topic now.

This is an excellent suggestion, which I would consider much more a bug fix than a gameplay change.

I have to agree as there have been too many times where I thought myself hidden safely behind a bit of ceiling or wall only to be pistoled down by a marine who could see my claws or snout easily. By moving the point of view forward a bit, we would be able to better **** our surroundings and judge if we actually are well hidden or not.

Third person view can't be used to cheat if you implement a system similar to The Specialists' third person mode.

The problem is that the position of the POV of a player has to be at the centre of rotation of the player model. The alternative, to have a centre of rotation that does not coincide with the POV, has the following problems:

Your point of view would have to move like a 3rd person camera, but in reverse, as your view point would be further forward from the point of rotation, so turning to the left would also move the point of view to the left of where it was. This would probably make things like navigating gaps, wall climbing, bunnyhopping, or even turning corners quite disorientating. You could argue that none of these effect occur when using a third person camera, but in that case you can see your whole body. With this none of your body would be visable, so there's no reference for where your clipping hull is.
When the skulk clings to a wall, it's orientation changes instantly, so your POV would warp to a new position, possibly several times as you changed between walls. A minor, but important point to address is what to do if the head of the skulk model clips through a wall as it extends beyond the solid hull of the player. A 3rd person camera usually shrinks closer to the player's centre, which would be odd, and the alternative, to let the POV appear inside the wall, would lead to wallhack-type exploitation.

Excluding a seperate POV and centre of rotation, you'd have to make the head the centre of rotation, by moving the whole skulk model back to meet the player. Because of the limitations of the quake era engine, the clipping hull would still have to be centred on the centre of rotation, and even if this could be overcome, swinging your clipping hull around a point because you turned your head would cause so many stuck problems.

So, we'd now have a skulk model where the back legs and lower body extend outside the clipping hull, sweeping out a circle twice as large as the current turning circle of a skulk, and this is the best case, most workable solution. How many more skulks would be exposed by limbs poking through scenery/doors/vents, or shot in the back long after their viewpoint reached cover? And the worst part is, because the front half of the clipping hull is now empty, there will always be a large gap between any target and the head, it would never seem like the bites are connecting.

I'm sure that at some point the ns team did have to think long and hard about how to deal with this, and the solution they've come up with this the most practical and simple, for gameplay as well as implimentation. Any change now would annoy more gamers used to the way skulks work now than it would help people hide more easily.

I didn't read the whole thread (actualy quite 10% - to much!), but as far as i read and understand: I have to fully agree!

It's just forkin stupid to be (not) able to hide below stuff - you are a skulk, absolutly can't see over the table in front of you, but they can shoot you like a 10m large target. thats idiotic! redo the whole v_points of the aliens! I already suggested this, but it was kinda ignored.

Most noticed creatures:
- skulk (to low, to far behind)
- onos (to far behind)
- maybe lerk


(specified request of work: the viewpoints need to be replaced according to the hitboxes)

Assuming Heavy knows what he is talking about, it would be too difficult to implement. I suppose the other solution would be to have map makers take ambushing into account more, but I doubt that will happen either. I realise something like this wouldn't take much priority, and very few people seem care about atmosphere anyway, so I'm just glad I got a bit of a resolution to the idea of it all.

I believe The Specialists' third-person camera doesn't allow you to cheat by peeking around corners, it has some sort of FOV check.

I really thought about this too but when you think more carefully about it, you'll get the point too. It's just because you wanna make yourself sure that you REALLY hit something when you're attacking a marine. The same for the lerk.

Honestly didn't get what you meant until Bob started yapping on, but now I see! Yes, it is annoying poking out and not realising it. I hope something CAN be done about it, because if at all possible it certainly should be.

Third person mode makes it alot easier to play as skuik, I used to know a trick to play in 3rd person mode back in 1.04 (which I reported to an ircop and has been removed). I used to play in 3rd person mode on pub sometimes, its similar in effect to no bite model because your view doesn't get blocked. Would make the game alot easier for people who dont play ns hours a day and aren't used to some rediculous model blocking their aim.