i was just daydreaming and i thought why shouldn't sensory chambers be built first?
after the sensory chamber is done have gorges build rts as usual and then have nearly all the skulks cloak and attack/ambush like crazy
without scan marines will definately fall to cloak skulks right? : / even if the skulk kills one marine and dies it would still be beneficial to keep on cloaking just to kill one marine each time.
when the comm gets obs and scans: if marines are closely packed then fine, skulks go around killing rts they can find. if marines are spread out then multiple scans would be needed...and wouldn't this be really just too expensive?
aliens can push on like this and get second and third hives...
btw a quick qn...how long do scans last? like if i'm cloaked and the comm scans, how long do i have to wait before i can go there to cloak again?
[EDIT] eck sry wrong forum: should be kharaa strat
Full Version: Getting Sc First In Ns Maps
elec rts, mt prioritized before wep lvls because sc fades go down fast. obses in all major locations, scan alot. welders. then u just siege the hive and theres nothing they can do about it.
sure marines can suffer losses but that makes no difference because marines will come back, with more armor.
sure marines can suffer losses but that makes no difference because marines will come back, with more armor.
The problem is that SCs don't counter OBS. OBS counter SCs. With sensory as a first chamber, a comm will have like 3, 4 OBS at least, plus motion tracking of course. Then, there's the problem of putting up all the sensories ont he map before the marines expand, which is impossible.
icic
so if sc is chosen to be first hive and both aliens are on a similar skill level as the marines, aliens have to kill the marines quick or else they will most likely lose the game?
so if sc is chosen to be first hive and both aliens are on a similar skill level as the marines, aliens have to kill the marines quick or else they will most likely lose the game?
Yep.
Which is prolly the reason why DCs are put down first most of the time. Higher lifeforms benefit a lot from defense chambers, namely Fades.
Don't get me wrong, I like to use all chambers equally but most people like to play to win and not to lose.
Which is prolly the reason why DCs are put down first most of the time. Higher lifeforms benefit a lot from defense chambers, namely Fades.
Don't get me wrong, I like to use all chambers equally but most people like to play to win and not to lose.
SC is a great way to boost the team, but it has a few downfalls:
1. Any higher life forms are much more ineffective without DCs, having to go back to the hive to heal.
2. SC takes alot of team work and commitment (more so than any other chamber); A second hive must go up as soon as possible if aliens are to have any chance. If not, they will get seriously out tech'd
3. Focus sucks for anything under and including lerk after armor 1.
A powerful chamber if used appropriately, but if that second hive doesn't go up ASAP, its pretty much gg.
1. Any higher life forms are much more ineffective without DCs, having to go back to the hive to heal.
2. SC takes alot of team work and commitment (more so than any other chamber); A second hive must go up as soon as possible if aliens are to have any chance. If not, they will get seriously out tech'd
3. Focus sucks for anything under and including lerk after armor 1.
A powerful chamber if used appropriately, but if that second hive doesn't go up ASAP, its pretty much gg.
I think sensory chambers are best used from the start if your planning on a quick rush to finish the game early, by the time level 1 armor is up you can cause alot of chaos on the battle field, sensory is of course very useful for ambush attacks & requires the marines to use more team work. 
Sensory dosen't really benefit an onos at all, either.
why on earth are you a 1-hive onos with sc.. go build a hive and lame it up.
the main reason pub aliens lose with sc is because they are totally incapable of securing the second hive location. they have the dc mentality that "oh well the hive is locked no prob the fade can take it down. it doesnt matter if the hive is delayed 1-2 minutes.
that doesnt work with sc.
with sc, the moment you are able to move someone must dash off to the planned 2nd hive spot and drop an sc there. another gorge will come and drop the rt. then after a while the guy who wouldve gotten dc's comes and lames it up.
you also need to make sure that someone is saving for the hive, preferably someone with decent to good skulking skills.
and thats only 1 aspect of the alien game if they go sensory. theres a million other things to do aswell.
the main reason pub aliens lose with sc is because they are totally incapable of securing the second hive location. they have the dc mentality that "oh well the hive is locked no prob the fade can take it down. it doesnt matter if the hive is delayed 1-2 minutes.
that doesnt work with sc.
with sc, the moment you are able to move someone must dash off to the planned 2nd hive spot and drop an sc there. another gorge will come and drop the rt. then after a while the guy who wouldve gotten dc's comes and lames it up.
you also need to make sure that someone is saving for the hive, preferably someone with decent to good skulking skills.
and thats only 1 aspect of the alien game if they go sensory. theres a million other things to do aswell.
| QUOTE (TOmekki @ Jul 24 2004, 11:12 AM) |
| why on earth are you a 1-hive onos with sc.. go build a hive and lame it up. |
It goes without saying that I meant a two-hive onos.
because the marines seige out the second hive when it's building, and sc fades cannot kill the phasegate.
SC requires a very very good team.
If you've a dedicated hive hoarder, and he's a good player, then you can STILL get second hive within an acceptable time frame and thus gain access to the more conventional chambers.
However, on a pub, with lots of bad pubbers, chances are you're going to lose horribly, and thats assuming you're on the server long enough to lose. Pub aliens can't organise defence, can't organise offence, and thus players have to rely on their chamber choices - which makes DC for instance very popular.
Yes, SC is very powerful if people used cloak or focus properly, but the problem is a lot of players simply cant get their heads around it, and end up repeatedly dying to bare basic rines. This'll make them angry, and less likely to try SC in the future.
If you've a dedicated hive hoarder, and he's a good player, then you can STILL get second hive within an acceptable time frame and thus gain access to the more conventional chambers.
However, on a pub, with lots of bad pubbers, chances are you're going to lose horribly, and thats assuming you're on the server long enough to lose. Pub aliens can't organise defence, can't organise offence, and thus players have to rely on their chamber choices - which makes DC for instance very popular.
Yes, SC is very powerful if people used cloak or focus properly, but the problem is a lot of players simply cant get their heads around it, and end up repeatedly dying to bare basic rines. This'll make them angry, and less likely to try SC in the future.
| QUOTE (Necrosis @ Jul 24 2004, 02:48 PM) |
| SC requires a very very good team. If you've a dedicated hive hoarder, and he's a good player, then you can STILL get second hive within an acceptable time frame and thus gain access to the more conventional chambers. However, on a pub, with lots of bad pubbers, chances are you're going to lose horribly, and thats assuming you're on the server long enough to lose. Pub aliens can't organise defence, can't organise offence, and thus players have to rely on their chamber choices - which makes DC for instance very popular. Yes, SC is very powerful if people used cloak or focus properly, but the problem is a lot of players simply cant get their heads around it, and end up repeatedly dying to bare basic rines. This'll make them angry, and less likely to try SC in the future. |
in general it doesn't work very well with clans either
it is viable, but you WILL need a second hive, and a lot more teamwork than normal and so is suicide on pubs 
sc is droped.
marines get MT first and run to lock down two hives and it is all over. obs in evey key area + scan alot = kharra lose every time.
marines get MT first and run to lock down two hives and it is all over. obs in evey key area + scan alot = kharra lose every time.
Sensory just isn't safe...ok lets say I'm com and a teamate says : they got sensory.
Ok, cool.
2 obs, armor 1, shotgun, welders...then look down at least one hive, put and other obs in it. Ask my team to go kill res or makes some, I scan all the map with my 3 obs. The team kills a lot of scs while they move on to 2nd hive, and when they try to stop us, aliens are just to weak to do anything.
Aliens look so robbed when they get scanned, lol
Ok, cool.
2 obs, armor 1, shotgun, welders...then look down at least one hive, put and other obs in it. Ask my team to go kill res or makes some, I scan all the map with my 3 obs. The team kills a lot of scs while they move on to 2nd hive, and when they try to stop us, aliens are just to weak to do anything.
Aliens look so robbed when they get scanned, lol
If you really want to throw the marines off, try sensory second. No one ever expects it, and if marines aren't careful, the third hive will go up easily, even if it is "locked down" with a turret farm. It might not actually work, but it could be fun.
I think what I mean is, hmgs will rip you to **** at 1 hive with sensory, this is not the case with dc or even mc. Though Im not entirely sure about spore +focus fades getting ripped, but its only 30-40 hmg bullets to kill one and they have no healing, but they will get 1 hit kills. I think if the marines bunker slightly with mines then this isnt an issue.
| QUOTE |
| 2 obs, armor 1, shotgun, welders...then look down at least one hive, put and other obs in it. Ask my team to go kill res or makes some, I scan all the map with my 3 obs. The team kills a lot of scs while they move on to 2nd hive, and when they try to stop us, aliens are just to weak to do anything. |
I have used that exact technique today to rape sc aliens...too easy.
Sensory sucks when you got skill...cloaking is lame, scent of fear is like hacking, and focus does less damage over time, its good in co because of resuply.
| QUOTE ([QcBs]God Killer @ Jul 25 2004, 04:37 AM) |
| Sensory sucks when you got skill...cloaking is lame, scent of fear is like hacking, and focus does less damage over time, its good in co because of resuply. |
Why is this in the frontiersman strategy forum :S
| QUOTE |
| Why is this in the frontiersman strategy forum :S |
Hum...he does have a point!
No one actually saw that...
Nanites.
Yeah sensory don't work for clans either... but it'd be interesting to see who it would be more viable for. Clans have the earlygame plan and teamwork.. but the opposing clan would have an easier time vs sensory. In a pub match aliens have a hard time coordinating... but then so do the marines, so sensory could well work better.
Sensory second can be a game saver, especially if you can sens up third hive right under the marines noses. Always good practice to shoot a few rounds at the empty hive spot whenever you're phasing through... just in case..
Yeah sensory don't work for clans either... but it'd be interesting to see who it would be more viable for. Clans have the earlygame plan and teamwork.. but the opposing clan would have an easier time vs sensory. In a pub match aliens have a hard time coordinating... but then so do the marines, so sensory could well work better.
Sensory second can be a game saver, especially if you can sens up third hive right under the marines noses. Always good practice to shoot a few rounds at the empty hive spot whenever you're phasing through... just in case..
I've had other gorges try SC first on a public as a method of defending our main hive which was being constantly rushing. Focus worked really really good. The problem was that we couldn't get another hive up. SC first would work but it relies on getting that second hive up or else. At least a really crafty alien team can pull something out with a DC and start choking the rines so they can get a 2nd hive.
I think MC, SC, DC in that order would be funny. At two hives have everybody go gorge and just spit them to death (this was a joke).
I think MC, SC, DC in that order would be funny. At two hives have everybody go gorge and just spit them to death (this was a joke).
i've played, and won, a game where we went mc first, somehow got the second hive up and then someone accidentally dropped sc. the marines were so confused they couldn't react in any way. heh, we weren't much less confused at that point either.
but DO NOT try it.
but DO NOT try it.
Pandas managed to use it very well in a few of their matches. It just requires a rediculous amount of teamwork.
| QUOTE |
| Which is prolly the reason why DCs are put down first most of the time. Higher lifeforms benefit a lot from defense chambers, namely Fades. |
Benefit a lot? Pfeh, the WHOLE game has been balanced by the basis that every life-form has a DC from the start.
Maybe the playtesters liked of regen as much as the public does?
I generally like MC and DC much more. But there are two useful things about sensory.
1. SC chambers nearby make you invisible. This is devestating when combined with silence or when you are on the ceiling
2. Scent of Fear is a good upgrade. Cloaking is weak. It really only works when you are standing still. Many marines can see you when moving and if they start spray&pray they can hit you and then you decloak. Scent of fear is good for every calss. It's helpful for gorges because you can see if someone is sneaking arround in your hive. Focus requires skill to use and only for certain applications. If some jackass drops SC first at the beginning of the game, I'd get focus and get right outside the marine base in a large group and ambush when they walk out. Focus is for ambushing. Scent of fear is necessary at the end of the game because it allow you to see those pesky marines that might have escaped your assault and are trying to relocate.
for those of you newbies out there, the standard order is:
DC, MC, SC
1. SC chambers nearby make you invisible. This is devestating when combined with silence or when you are on the ceiling
2. Scent of Fear is a good upgrade. Cloaking is weak. It really only works when you are standing still. Many marines can see you when moving and if they start spray&pray they can hit you and then you decloak. Scent of fear is good for every calss. It's helpful for gorges because you can see if someone is sneaking arround in your hive. Focus requires skill to use and only for certain applications. If some jackass drops SC first at the beginning of the game, I'd get focus and get right outside the marine base in a large group and ambush when they walk out. Focus is for ambushing. Scent of fear is necessary at the end of the game because it allow you to see those pesky marines that might have escaped your assault and are trying to relocate.
for those of you newbies out there, the standard order is:
DC, MC, SC
| QUOTE |
| Cloaking is weak. It really only works when you are standing still. |
it also works while walking.. (with an onos this makes for one quick devour 
)
presonally i think the SC is useless in the start of the round as rines usually go for MT and multiple obs (or at least alot of scans) not to mention the aliens lack that ever stratigical building self-generation\regeneration ability the DC provides , however i did see some very important use for the SC as the last chamber when properly placed it can create a cloak field long enough to get your onos's\fades through or at least lame up the marine base as\with a gorge
)presonally i think the SC is useless in the start of the round as rines usually go for MT and multiple obs (or at least alot of scans) not to mention the aliens lack that ever stratigical building self-generation\regeneration ability the DC provides , however i did see some very important use for the SC as the last chamber when properly placed it can create a cloak field long enough to get your onos's\fades through or at least lame up the marine base as\with a gorge
Sensory is good If the alien team works very very hard to keep the hives clear. If the marines get a two hive lockdown, sc Fades and Onii will not do a damn thing.
People also need to learn where to put the sc...dropping one in your starting hive is a waste of 10 res.
You have to be aggressive when you get the second hive building, because if the marines start pushing on one of your hives, you wont have mcs to transport to the other hives.
People also need to learn where to put the sc...dropping one in your starting hive is a waste of 10 res.
You have to be aggressive when you get the second hive building, because if the marines start pushing on one of your hives, you wont have mcs to transport to the other hives.
Ummm... perhaps someone should move this to the kharaa strat section?
| QUOTE (GunFodder. @ Jul 27 2004, 11:14 PM) |
| Sensory is good If the alien team works very very hard to keep the hives clear. If the marines get a two hive lockdown, sc Fades and Onii will not do a damn thing. People also need to learn where to put the sc...dropping one in your starting hive is a waste of 10 res. You have to be aggressive when you get the second hive building, because if the marines start pushing on one of your hives, you wont have mcs to transport to the other hives. |
focus fades are nasty things :S
Indeed 2 focus fade swipes kill any non-ha, no matter how much armor he has or how many medpacks he receives. 2 focus skulk bites kill any non-ha AS LONG AS he doesn't have armor 3 and/or doesn't receive medpacks. Medpacks + Armor 3 make them survive.
Focus ANYTHING is terrifying. Gore is more nightmarish than ever, absolutely great for base rapes where you need to take a tfac or armslab down in a jiffy.
| QUOTE |
| Focus ANYTHING is terrifying. Gore is more nightmarish than ever |
Har, har, very funny. Onos with focus is just a joke, goring so slow that by the time he gets the second blow, the marines have probably emptied all their magazines. For fade it is okay, hit-and-run, same applies to lerk, even though SoF is better, and skulks benefit from it in the beginning, but otherwise it is just too specific to be a "all-around" upgrade like the rest of them are.
So, IMO, SC still has only 2 valid upgrades when the others have 3.
Someone mentioned before a "leeching" upgrade to replace it. I think it is a pretty interesting idea, and should work a lot better than focus, even if it would require re-arranging the upgrades a bit...
Well I tend to take down base structures a lot faster with focus gore. Its not much good for anything else, but as an Onos SoF is largely irrelevant as its endgame and you KNOW where the rines are.... and Cloaking just encourages devourcamping followed by spam lols.
Wirhe, focus gore does provide a benefit. You say that by the time the onos gets its second gore in, the marines will have emptied their clips. If that's true, then they would have emptied their clips in the time that a nonfocused onos got in three gores. Include the fact that two focus gores does more damage than 3 nonfocus gores, and focus wins. Also, when killing structures, an onos will generally run out of adrenaline using gore without focus (since the only use for the adrenaline upgrade is stomp spam, and even then you are giving up celerity). A focus onos won't run out of energy while killing the structure, so it will go down faster, and the onos will be ready to take on marines that come along since it has adrenaline still.
Focus if celerity, sof if adrenaline, nuff said.
| QUOTE (Stung256 @ Jul 27 2004, 08:13 AM) |
| Pandas managed to use it very well in a few of their matches. It just requires a rediculous amount of teamwork. |
Sensory was a fad for a week or two after 3.0 came out. Then the novelty wore off, the best clans started getting stomped by mediocre clans, and no one goes sensory any more except for rushes or for fun.
The reason it's no good: unless you're rushing, you will still need 1 hive fades to defend your 2nd hive. Focus is cool yeah, and anti medspam, but it just doesn't quite make up for the lack of healing. The reason 1 hive fades get regen is because they have to hang around the second hive, which won't have good healing until it's finished (unless you can somehow afford to have 2 people on gorge alternating with healspray, which if so, you're probably going to win anyway).
So anyway, it's not actually teamwork that's a factor in why sens isn't used.
Briefly, how to beat aliens with sensory
a) get armor 1 (MANDATORY).
b) get phase gates and lock down a hive with a tf, phase and elec node.
c) get motion tracking (if you've got the res).
d) drop shotguns. Lots and lots of shotguns (read: "focus this bizzarch")
d) get a phase gate as close to a 2nd hive as possible, elec the rt next to it.
e) siege said hive. Versus sens, it's complicated or difficult to take an area that the aliens want. It's easy to hold an area against them.
f) finish the game. Get heavies if you need them and be aware that focus fades CAN clear a locked down hive if you're not paying attention.
| QUOTE (LittleToe @ Jul 24 2004, 06:04 PM) |
| sc is droped. marines get MT first and run to lock down two hives and it is all over. obs in evey key area + scan alot = kharra lose every time. |
dont even gotta lock down 2
lock down the middle hive,and just put a pg at other
-well,i guess that pretty much is lockdown
caw caw
Yep, eRT+PG, and the Kharaa cannot break it for a long, long time without at least three fades slashing at it, going back to the hive for healing, and repeating. And the marines feel nice enough to let them do that.
So, any suggestions as to make sensory NOT suck?
How about changing focus so it doesn't have a ROF penalty? A focus alien and a non-focus alien will both attack at the same speed?
How about changing focus so it doesn't have a ROF penalty? A focus alien and a non-focus alien will both attack at the same speed?
If they made Sensory block Scan, it would be viable as first chamber.
The 2 major flaws with sensory first is the lacking of healing and thus, inability to take out electrified structures, notably RTs. The other is that focus skulks are lethal, but res is lost every death because of the 2 res upgrade cost.
If 3 sensories are placed inside vents, even if they are scanned, the marines simply have no way to reach them unless they stack, but then a single skulk should be able to win in such territory.
This makes the sensories untouchable, and forces the commander to scan no matter what. As rambos are important, and if the marines are spread out, he simply cannot scan everywhere for everyone.
Focus, as mentioned, is a deadly 2-hit killer. A focus fade is very very lethal, and if they have shotguns, fast killing of the marines or evasion will matter more than the healing you would have gotten in such a fight. Skulks with focus are good too.
Done this way, the kharaa can dominate the marines. But they just need to electrify a rt and expand this way, and you can't do anything to counter it. MT screws every upgrade path so it doesn't really matter, and armour is just 2 focus bites, which is easier really than 3-4 normal ones.
The real evil counter to sensory first is electricity, with scanning and obs a limited second.
The only way to win is to get the 2nd hive up before the marines can expand too much, and this requires teamwork...so yea...
If 3 sensories are placed inside vents, even if they are scanned, the marines simply have no way to reach them unless they stack, but then a single skulk should be able to win in such territory.
This makes the sensories untouchable, and forces the commander to scan no matter what. As rambos are important, and if the marines are spread out, he simply cannot scan everywhere for everyone.
Focus, as mentioned, is a deadly 2-hit killer. A focus fade is very very lethal, and if they have shotguns, fast killing of the marines or evasion will matter more than the healing you would have gotten in such a fight. Skulks with focus are good too.
Done this way, the kharaa can dominate the marines. But they just need to electrify a rt and expand this way, and you can't do anything to counter it. MT screws every upgrade path so it doesn't really matter, and armour is just 2 focus bites, which is easier really than 3-4 normal ones.
The real evil counter to sensory first is electricity, with scanning and obs a limited second.
The only way to win is to get the 2nd hive up before the marines can expand too much, and this requires teamwork...so yea...
Hmmmm, that reminds me of a game i played earlier on.
I have just rebound my keys as gorge to build chambers, and we had our second hive going up with no chambers.
I went into a nice secure place as gorge, and hit the wrong bind (>.<) And we ended up getting MC! first!
As the second hive was nearing completion we didn't really mind, as we told ourselfs, we could get dc next, and lose very little. However, as soon as it was built, someone else built a SC.
And the 3rd hive was quite a way off..
Anywayz, we acually managed to win...
But that's pubs for ya.
**Leap/Focus/Silence--Ahhhhh**
I have just rebound my keys as gorge to build chambers, and we had our second hive going up with no chambers.
I went into a nice secure place as gorge, and hit the wrong bind (>.<) And we ended up getting MC! first!
As the second hive was nearing completion we didn't really mind, as we told ourselfs, we could get dc next, and lose very little. However, as soon as it was built, someone else built a SC.
And the 3rd hive was quite a way off..
Anywayz, we acually managed to win...
But that's pubs for ya.
**Leap/Focus/Silence--Ahhhhh**
Sensory first works with focus, we just did a sensory-movement first strat and totally stomped another clan with it.
All you need is chokepoints, works great on ns_nancy with the two ladder chokepoints.
If the map has no chokepoints, then sensory first sucks hard.
But focus + cloak + chokepoint = unstoppable, throw in a lerk for good measure and you can't go wrong.
All you need is chokepoints, works great on ns_nancy with the two ladder chokepoints.
If the map has no chokepoints, then sensory first sucks hard.
But focus + cloak + chokepoint = unstoppable, throw in a lerk for good measure and you can't go wrong.
as my point of view SCs are muchmore valueable than dc in the early start
But the only problem is where u put it
Here s is one of my exp about sc start
In a 12 vs 12 game, alien start with sc, a gorge cloack itself and sneak into
marine base in 1: 00 min and set up a sc and no one knew it was there
Did anyone of u play starcraft before ? when we set up our obs in 2:00
We found that our base was surrounded by 9 dogs and for sure we re dead.
Sc and Mc is valueable on how u use it.
If u use it for foucs but not for ambush, then it was just a JUNK
But if u put it near marine base with an average team, then ur team will have quick fade or quick onos and how u win is depends on how many res **** in ur team
Even the marine set of Mt, they wont have much res to upgrade armor [ unless alien got heavy lose]
And MC is the best partner with sc even facing HA train. Cloack and adrea onos is really aggressive . Remeber, Dc cant help u much. There maybe some of u dont
support my idea but it s turth. Cloack with sliense, fantastic.
If u say a sc start will lose, then ur team must be really noob or newbi
But the only problem is where u put it
Here s is one of my exp about sc start
In a 12 vs 12 game, alien start with sc, a gorge cloack itself and sneak into
marine base in 1: 00 min and set up a sc and no one knew it was there
Did anyone of u play starcraft before ? when we set up our obs in 2:00
We found that our base was surrounded by 9 dogs and for sure we re dead.
Sc and Mc is valueable on how u use it.
If u use it for foucs but not for ambush, then it was just a JUNK
But if u put it near marine base with an average team, then ur team will have quick fade or quick onos and how u win is depends on how many res **** in ur team
Even the marine set of Mt, they wont have much res to upgrade armor [ unless alien got heavy lose]
And MC is the best partner with sc even facing HA train. Cloack and adrea onos is really aggressive . Remeber, Dc cant help u much. There maybe some of u dont
support my idea but it s turth. Cloack with sliense, fantastic.
If u say a sc start will lose, then ur team must be really noob or newbi
You sc'ed there base, why didn't they just by obs. Most comms get them very fast. Way before you'll have chance to do that.
Despite the almost universal distate for SC, good comms will ALWAYS have an obs up very quickly, partially because of phase tech and the almighty bacon, and partially because it means IF the aliens plan an SC crawl they'll be quickly spotted and rushed..... and its a lot easier for marines to recover from a SC base rush (usually by relocate if the situation is dire) than it is for aliens to recover from an Obs rush with an SC hive (no hope of relocation, no way to defend the hive).
However, if you don't basecrawl and just focus rush, it's equally as strong imo.
But i'm still all for DMS..
But i'm still all for DMS..
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