I don't see why a Com will go drop the proto, then tech HA, when Fades and the guy who res whor*d for Onos are running around teh map.
that's 80 res which could've gotten you 4 HMGs and a GL. While the marines are trying to fend them off with lmgs, and failing.
They get HA maybe a minute earlier, but lose 2-3 rts and associated buildings, and can only drop maybe 2-3 full suits of HA/HMG/Welder when it finished researching. Which won't stop the fades and onos. Even then then might save teh day if they forget about the HA and just drop HMGs, but they don't.
It doesn't make sense to me why heavy weapons are only given to HA. To me, it's always been teh opposite. HA only if you have a heavy weapon. In fact, weapons can be transferred if the guy dies, but HA can't.
You know all those end-games? where the aliens have everything but MS? You notice how marines can hold an amazing amount of time when they all have HMGs and GLs? even though spores and teh occasional fade come in and whack a guy? That's just a common example of how useful heavy weapons are.
So hand out some heavy weapons before teching. or your marines will be seriously outclassed in teh mid-game.
Edit:: clarification
Full Version: Drop Weapons Before Getting Ha/jps
Yes, I agree completely.
Make sure you do have armor upgrades from the armslab before doing this. Handing out guns without at least having armor 1 is a big waste. However, a lot better is having armor 2 or 3 combined with some welders. Welders are 5 res each, very cheap.
Make sure you do have armor upgrades from the armslab before doing this. Handing out guns without at least having armor 1 is a big waste. However, a lot better is having armor 2 or 3 combined with some welders. Welders are 5 res each, very cheap.
Totally agreed. Personally I dont have HA until late-game, and even then, it doesnt win me the games; i already have won. or lost. Thats decided by the guys with light armor, grenade launchers, HMGs building those seege kanons.
Teching up to 3/3 is hard , but once you do , a good squad of teamplayers with shotguns and welders can defeat fades and do many other amazing things.
You don't need HAs to kill the hive with shotguns + catpacks...
You don't need HAs to kill the hive with shotguns + catpacks...
Unfortunately not every commander who does this is a newbie. There were quite a few cases in my experience, where the team has simply been utterly hopeless on a strategic scale. In those cases commander KNOWS that dropped hmgs without ha = wasted resourse. If you see me in the chair doing this, it means 4 out of 5 players on marine team utterly suck or their cordless mice are low on batteries 
Mid game heavy weapons are the way why I'm usually teching a1-a2-w1-a3 on pubs nowadays. 4-5 bite 3-4 swipe rines become a **** to kill when they wield heavy weapons even without ha, and I'd rather have a few lvl0-1 HMGs in the field then tons of lvl2-3 lmgs. Armor 3 = greedy comm's HA, fade's worst nightmare
Mid game heavy weapons are the way why I'm usually teching a1-a2-w1-a3 on pubs nowadays. 4-5 bite 3-4 swipe rines become a **** to kill when they wield heavy weapons even without ha, and I'd rather have a few lvl0-1 HMGs in the field then tons of lvl2-3 lmgs. Armor 3 = greedy comm's HA, fade's worst nightmare
When the kharaa get fades or onos, drop weapons. Those piggies need to die, end of story. Big guns will pay for themselves unless your team is completely incompetant, in which case it doesn't really matter what you spend your res on.
After the big targets are dead, you can still run around plastering skulks for quite a while.
Until you face something that requires more firepower, concentrate your resources on getting arms lab upgrades. They are the best long-term invenstment, and can only be beat when immediate threats call for other spending (like sieging a hive, an onos eating your rts, etc.).
After the big targets are dead, you can still run around plastering skulks for quite a while.
Until you face something that requires more firepower, concentrate your resources on getting arms lab upgrades. They are the best long-term invenstment, and can only be beat when immediate threats call for other spending (like sieging a hive, an onos eating your rts, etc.).
Weapons have a long lifespan in stationary locations. IE choke points, minibases, last stands. In such place, SOMEONE is bound to walk into the weapon and assume the dead guy's role.
Its a bit trickier in a train, since the law of averages dictates some of the squad will cluster the weapon guy in order to get the gun when he dies - this makes them fodder for spores, umbra, and stomp. Xeno too, at the higher levels. Also, in train you need to keep moving, thus there's a chance of the guns getting left behind.
Fundamentally however, it IS true that you get more use out of the guns than the armour, but also consider that an Onos can snaffle an HMGer and dump his corpse in a random location, along with weapons.
Edit - some more points
Dropping big guns puts you in a good position while the enemy is recovering from the loss of fades and onos.
Second, I've won games on a pure unupgraded LMG rush to hives, covered by meds and ammo spam alone. So I put a lot more faith in shotties and shooting than I do in HA. IMHO HA is just a safety net for when you are right in a hive and are being rushed every second by aliens - its just not necessary early game when you're not in a hive.
Its a bit trickier in a train, since the law of averages dictates some of the squad will cluster the weapon guy in order to get the gun when he dies - this makes them fodder for spores, umbra, and stomp. Xeno too, at the higher levels. Also, in train you need to keep moving, thus there's a chance of the guns getting left behind.
Fundamentally however, it IS true that you get more use out of the guns than the armour, but also consider that an Onos can snaffle an HMGer and dump his corpse in a random location, along with weapons.
Edit - some more points
Dropping big guns puts you in a good position while the enemy is recovering from the loss of fades and onos.
Second, I've won games on a pure unupgraded LMG rush to hives, covered by meds and ammo spam alone. So I put a lot more faith in shotties and shooting than I do in HA. IMHO HA is just a safety net for when you are right in a hive and are being rushed every second by aliens - its just not necessary early game when you're not in a hive.
I find dropping heavy machines for even just person cause the whole team to spam "can I get a heavy machine gun?" And then you have the whole team standing in spawn whining over and over again, while your terriorities get destroyed.
I'd rather have six marines with light machine guns fighting than one or two marines with heavy machine guns.
I'd rather have six marines with light machine guns fighting than one or two marines with heavy machine guns.
Drop shotties then, they're pretty cheap, and only keep the HMGs for people with a bit of wit.
Kind of hard for your first round, but after that you should know which players can pull their weight, and which ones are just showboaters or griefers.
Kind of hard for your first round, but after that you should know which players can pull their weight, and which ones are just showboaters or griefers.
Well on servers that have competant players, I'll just drop shotties for most, and hmgs for ppl that are best players.
If everyone spams 'can i have a shirtgun?', I'll just play aliens next game...
If everyone spams 'can i have a shirtgun?', I'll just play aliens next game...
| QUOTE (Lucky_ @ Apr 3 2004, 09:14 AM) |
| Unfortunately not every commander who does this is a newbie. There were quite a few cases in my experience, where the team has simply been utterly hopeless on a strategic scale. In those cases commander KNOWS that dropped hmgs without ha = wasted resourse. If you see me in the chair doing this, it means 4 out of 5 players on marine team utterly suck or their cordless mice are low on batteries Mid game heavy weapons are the way why I'm usually teching a1-a2-w1-a3 on pubs nowadays. 4-5 bite 3-4 swipe rines become a **** to kill when they wield heavy weapons even without ha, and I'd rather have a few lvl0-1 HMGs in the field then tons of lvl2-3 lmgs. Armor 3 = greedy comm's HA, fade's worst nightmare |
Can someone confirm this? Up until this day I always go in the A1/W1-W3 order, then worry about the rest of armor upgrades. Does it really pay off to get all the armor upgrades first or do the lvl 3 weapons with A1 do the trick?
| QUOTE (@cid @ Apr 4 2004, 08:01 PM) | ||
Can someone confirm this? Up until this day I always go in the A1/W1-W3 order, then worry about the rest of armor upgrades. Does it really pay off to get all the armor upgrades first or do the lvl 3 weapons with A1 do the trick? |
Don't expect a unanimous answer to this. The only thing people agree on is getting A1 first, and there are still some stubborn people that don't agree with that.
yeah i only drop ha as a last ditch effort, or if im swiming in res. i still tech it up as fast as i prefer to drop shooties hmgs and the odd gl with welders and mines. your marines ussualy die a bit quicker then if they had HA, but its not that bad if you loose an La hmg welder compaired to a Ha hmg welder. save 15 res which you can use to drop meds or another hmg or a pg ect. also a group of La with high power weaps are just as usefull for fighting off fades/onos as a group of ha are.
Just remember, Armor upgrades sometimes can save you the res of a HA research altogether. I've run into some games where we never even needed heavies because we were doing fine with bigger guns, and Jetpacks make taking on an Onos a heck of a lot easier... So, sounds good to me.
When you have a team that dies when all have 3/3 HA/HMG and couldnt take out one have with no o chambers just think what would happen if they didnt have HAs. They might not even make it out of base!!! lol
If I see an ono or fade I will drop 2-3 good players some weapons and tell them to chase down the alien. With some medspam if needed problem solved. If there are no aliens who are that much of a threat then I just wait till HA to insure victory.
Without HA there is a chance for rape. In groups a noob will block good players and with no HA s good skulk can just rip through the marines and kill several of them or a lerk can spore/umbra on them.
If I see an ono or fade I will drop 2-3 good players some weapons and tell them to chase down the alien. With some medspam if needed problem solved. If there are no aliens who are that much of a threat then I just wait till HA to insure victory.
Without HA there is a chance for rape. In groups a noob will block good players and with no HA s good skulk can just rip through the marines and kill several of them or a lerk can spore/umbra on them.
| QUOTE (Act Chill @ Apr 5 2004, 08:34 AM) |
| When you have a team that dies when all have 3/3 HA/HMG and couldnt take out one have with no o chambers just think what would happen if they didnt have HAs. They might not even make it out of base!!! lol |
How do you get to 3/3 HA with that team to begin with?
The other team sucked hard too. It was 8v8 but they had 2 good players that worked together. One was onos and other was lerk. Umbra and devour is bad. It started right after they left base. He was able to devour 1/2 team by the time they got to hive. The other really bad aliens would get a bite here and there and the onos would gore a bit after devour and my team didnt weld. The good players also put up the hive and 3 d chambers at the begining so I didnt have to deal with a good early fade.
Welding is your friend. However, I'd rather have more armour than put my faith in some random spod welding me when I need it.
Not so much a problem on good servers... but then on those servers we tend to be zipping around with JPs.
Not so much a problem on good servers... but then on those servers we tend to be zipping around with JPs.
Act Chill, I don't see how dropping HA first would help in that situation.
Yes, HA is good, I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that a marine with no HA but carrying an HMG >> an HA marine with an lmg.
and a group of 6 marines with HMG/GL >> 2-3 marines with HA/HMG/Welder
Yes, HA is good, I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that a marine with no HA but carrying an HMG >> an HA marine with an lmg.
and a group of 6 marines with HMG/GL >> 2-3 marines with HA/HMG/Welder
[B]Oh,the bots will do this =.=\/ 
I do delive a marine with a HMG is better than a lmg/HA, but I said HA and HMG. An HMG/HA marine is SUPERIOR to a non-HA HMG. A group of HMGs even with a GL could be raped by spore/umbra. The skulks just need to wait between reloads of the GL(thats a 5min window lol).
| QUOTE (@cid @ Apr 4 2004, 11:01 PM) | ||
Can someone confirm this? Up until this day I always go in the A1/W1-W3 order, then worry about the rest of armor upgrades. Does it really pay off to get all the armor upgrades first or do the lvl 3 weapons with A1 do the trick? |
Very few people would agree with that. These days it's usually A1/W1/W2/W3/A2/A3, or A1/W1/A2/W2/W3/A3. MAYBE they'll get the first two armor upgrades first, but it's not often seen. The big difference in 3.0 is that armor 2 now gives 4 skulk bites, so rushing to armor 2 has a bit of merit. However a lack of weapon upgrades generally leads to fades running rampant all over the map. I'd only rush armor if you have enough res to drop the entire team shotties and welders.
| QUOTE (i'm lost @ Apr 5 2004, 02:35 AM) |
Don't expect a unanimous answer to this. The only thing people agree on is getting A1 first, and there are still some stubborn people that don't agree with that. |
Sif A1 first - maybe on a pub server where you have n00bs that can't aim, but definitely not in wars.
Marines usually have 2-3 seconds to shoot a skulk before he comes in range, if they are careful and don't get ambushed. In this time they could almost empty an LMG clip into the skulk. Assuming worst case scenario (ie. it doesn't kill it), the marine then has his pistol ammo followed by a reload before he can fire off another LMG clip (assuming he can avoid the bites). Level 1 armor will give you about a half a second more lifespan (one more bite) which is not enough time to reload.
Getting W1 first means that assuming the marine gets the same amount of bullets in, chances are the skulk will be dead and hopefully the marine took it out before it came in range of bite (worst case scenario, reen only took one bite).
If you notice early on that the aliens went sensory for first chamber, then definitely get A1 first, or your team will be screwed. Personally though I think its kinda silly to get A1 first - getting W1 first means you're that much closer to W2 when the fades come. Drop a couple shotties and watch those fades fall.
As a rule I generally go W1/W2/A1/W3/A2/A3, with A3 being optional as by that stage of the game the winner is pretty much already decided. This is just my general rule of thumb tho.
--Samah
Guess what? With W0 it takes 9 lmg bullets to kill an uncarapaced skulk. With W1 it takes 9 bullets to kill the same skulk. W3 cuts it down to 8 bullets. The extra bite you get from A1 is enough time to fire of about 5 lmg bullets (maybe more). Sure, getting to W2 sooner will help you against fades, but getting A1 sooner (as in right away) will cut down on the rfk that aliens get, and the alien team will have to wait longer for a fade. I get so annoyed every time I see a comm get W1 before A1.
As Samah quoting me above shows, there are still stubborn people that don't realize that A1 first is the best way to go.
As Samah quoting me above shows, there are still stubborn people that don't realize that A1 first is the best way to go.
Stubborn implies that I'm "being wrong for the sake of being different".
I personally prefer W1 first, so that's just a personal choice rather than stubbornness.
If however I agreed with you and was arguing W1 for the sake of irking you, THAT would be stubborn
Fortunately I'm not that kinda guy
I personally prefer W1 first, so that's just a personal choice rather than stubbornness.
If however I agreed with you and was arguing W1 for the sake of irking you, THAT would be stubborn
Fortunately I'm not that kinda guy
I'm just curious as to what you think the benefits of W1 first are. You can have A1 and W1 done by the time fades start showing up.
There is absolutely no reason to get W1 before A1. Never ever. Its not a matter of being about to reload that makes A1 better, its the extra time gained. Why you ask? Aliens ambush marines, and that extra bite effectively doubles the amount of time they have to kill the skulk assuming the every skulk bite lands. It also gives you another chance to get KBed by the skulk. On top of that, it makes meds more effective. Watch ANY high competition lvl game, and A1 will come before W1.
/offtopic
armor2 before weapon1 for win!
... Unless you suspect someones saving for fade, as well as getting a lot of rfk. Armor2 can give a marine 4 skulk bites, unless hes clever and parasites a lot. And even then, you can drop a medpack after a few bites, and he will still have armor1 value. Try it, honestly, if the marines are any good, the skulks will have MAJOR problems killing your guys without leap.
armor2 before weapon1 for win!
... Unless you suspect someones saving for fade, as well as getting a lot of rfk. Armor2 can give a marine 4 skulk bites, unless hes clever and parasites a lot. And even then, you can drop a medpack after a few bites, and he will still have armor1 value. Try it, honestly, if the marines are any good, the skulks will have MAJOR problems killing your guys without leap.
Lol hell yes, im using armor 2 first since beta 3, and it really does the job..
Don't forget gun upgrade 1 is USELESS against skulks..
Also armor upgrade restores armor on players in field, which is great if you have elite rines guarding certain location.
Don't forget gun upgrade 1 is USELESS against skulks..
Also armor upgrade restores armor on players in field, which is great if you have elite rines guarding certain location.
| QUOTE (Licho @ Apr 13 2004, 05:29 AM) |
| Also armor upgrade restores armor on players in field, which is great if you have elite rines guarding certain location. |
That is no longer the case in 3.0. Now, when an armor upgrade completes, a marine will keep the same percentage of his maximum armor that he had before the upgrade.
Are you sure? I was pretty certain that my armor jumped up a bit once upgrade was finished even from 0. I know that it's not 100% anymore..
I just started up a LAN game to test it, and when you get an armor upgrade, you maintain the same percentage of armor that you had before. When getting A1, I went from 4 to 7 armor. When I had 0 armor and got upgrades, I remained at 0 armor.
Thx for info, that changes the situation :-) (might drop some extra welders..)
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