So many comms send their marines to double-res when they know that aliens are there and are also trying to take it. They waste several precious minutes and MANY dead marines trying to take it while 4-6 res nodes sit completely unused all over the map.

Damnit, let the aliens have double, and take everything else. Since its easy to clean out later with sieges, just leave it alone. Perhaps this problem is only present on pubs, but I'm getting sick of it.

Here's what I want to know: First, are there some maps where this is a necessary strategy? I doubt it but I guess its possible. Second, since comms have more complete knowledge about the action on the map a better strategy would be to choose the main res nodes that can be taken and held. From that basis, the assault on hives can be staged. Whats wrong with that? Someone tell me why comms ALWAYS do this?

-stooopid

Not all comms always do this.

I personally only cap double res if I've got a marine near it and the opportunity is there. Relocations to double res' often fail due to the aliens valuing them so much, so I generally steer clear of them for the first couple of minutes and then try to take anything that is in there down.

This is one of the few situations where I believe that cure is better than prevention.

If aliens get dbl then they get dbl, i won't be particular happy about it but i won't let it detract from the rest of: the plan ™. I'll just come back to it later when the res is going and i've got a nice foothold in the map or maybe send a few marines there every now and then just to keep the aliens on their toes. Sometimes these few marines just clean the place out beacuse the aliens are else where which is just a nice bonus

But yeah, don't get caught up too much in it. Always time for dbl res later, work on getting other res and pressuring the alien hive.

Nearly every double on every map is wide open for counter attacks.

Stay away from double itself, but keep in the vicinity. If you can hold a nearby choke point then you can send out a small patrol to periodically clear out dbl. If the Kharaa get dug in its no worries, since they can't exactly spawn outside of their hives. Besides, the mighty siege will flatten all in range.


I personally think the strange addiction some players have for dbl nodes is the main reason why people lose games.

The only map where you need to be in control of double res, is on mineshaft, imo.
avoid it like the plague on the others ... and then get rid of the plague later

At last people who hate dbl res.
As you said, its difficult to take dbl res at start, since 1 > 1 LA no upgrades.
Relocating there is... stupid too... on some maps like caged, veil and others, there is always a ventilation... oh yeah... "that" hell ventilation. come, spore and easy frag.
I know, Armory gives Medpack but what about the armor that we love so much to stay alive after 2 bites (1 with focus).
Oh well... my 2 cents!
I dont post too much so be proud that I posted here!
Greets.
Vas.

If I ever command on Caged I always go for double. Yes, it's incredibly risky but if you can pull it off then you just got two res nodes and the most central point on the map. I must have commed at least 15 games using this strat and I've only lost three times.

dres is only worth the RTs placed in it. I do not even bother to defense it ever.

I am on a parallel with Steve... 2 res nodes up quickly, maybe a TF down... and there's a nice refference point (w/ armory & general refuge).
Having two res nodes opposed to just one, and a point which marines can spawn from is valuable. I don't com' often at all, but I see double-res' as a useful area.

Its a great place to rush though before building much of anything - if you can get in before the aliens (which will often only have 1-2 guys checking that spot), you're very likely to hold it. If that doesn't work, yeah try something else.

if i need to place one turret to defend it it surpassed its sue to me. We got 8 other rts you know.

And yes, there are exeptions where dres are just chokepoints. But generally I do not take effort to get it.

Instead of electrifying the rts at double res it now becomes economic to place a tf and pg b/c there are 2 rts. For aliens it becomes a better ideal to place o chambers with d chambers. Its just a good spot to have and is more worth defending.

If you dont get it easily it is a waste to keep trying to take it, which is the mistake commanders make.

For mine shaft it is very important. Its between 2 hives and is easier to defend with tf b/c its more flat and open compared to other double rts.

Hmmm i guess most comms just see the RTs at double but there is more, check the maps for the location of double and you will see that it's a nice place to attack almost every hive (but at least 2) which makes it quite valueable.

I totaly agree that trying to take dres for about 5 minutes right on start won't take you anywhere. Example: Hera , you will probably do a better job when getting 1-2 marines attacking dres while the others take main-conridor, hera entrance, main, ventilation, processing ...
The Aliens will most likely try to defend dres against your 2 marines (which shouldnt die right away) while you get MORE then 2 RTs up and running.

Now while getting some upgrades you can [lock a hive/lock two hives/siege double/try attack double with upgraded marines/rush the main-hive/...]

If you get control at double be happy build a PG and MAYBE a TF with 2-3 turrets to stop some skulk rushes and slow down fades a few seconds.

Just my .02

Bear in mind a dbl res node in the MIDDLE OF THE MAP is just far too easy to surround, isolate, and generally harass. Your only line of retreat is........ back to the lamed up dbl res! This is a losing position, especially since dbl res nodes are wide open for ANY attack.



Second, res nodes between hives can end up as expensive kill zones since your men are effectively pincered by the two hives. You're not dominating anything, and although it *may* be a nice spot, its hindered by the fact that leaving base to assault one hive will leave your base wide open to an assault from the OTHER hive. Second, if you clear out the hive on one side then you've to fight an uphill battle through your old base and then further on through to the other hive....... by this time the aliens are rebuilding the previous hive because it's taken you 10-20 minutes to fight across.



Make no mistake, dbl nodes are nice res providers, but they're far too easily exploited by Kharaa. They can drop two RTs and run off chuckling, safe in the knowledge that IF they lose the area, its only 2 RTs which are dirt cheap considering Kharaa save res independently. As a marine player, you drop those chambers, guard them with some men, try to form a minibase, and end up piling in a hell of a lot of res for little to no gain.


IMHO you want to DENY dbl res, nothing more. If you manage to get both hives on either side, or you're expanding THROUGH the middle of the map, then by all means cap the nodes and MOVE ON. Marine victories are dictated through aggression and pressure, not through long drawn out turret crawls through a Kharaa killzone.

Great feedback and I've enjoyed the insights too.

I guess I've just never seen a fight for double that turned out to be to the long-term benefit of the marines. If it isn't guarded then, by all means, get setup. I see your point about it being a good forward operating position.

Perhaps my consternation comes from the fact that I like a blitzkrieg strategy against the hives -- as soon as you can equip 5-6 grunts with JP/HMG, you rush. Note the benefits of this over a basic shotty rush... Good insights though, people. Thanks!

Realistically I am reading that the upmost concern is in losing grunts, res and time in general. I have seen high-skill comms take double res and have 3 grunts (best available) hold it while they research, and those grunts actually moved on to do serious damage to a hive while their other team mates attacked another hive. Even if they lose double eventually, having moved onto assault that hive from dres caused confusion and allowed them to secure an uninhabited hive.


Essentially skilled marines can fight off loads of skulks and maybe 40% of the time, having survived, succeed in doing damage to a hive area .

I agree with most of the points, and I myself will let them have it, grab as many other nodes, then come back and seige it out, wasting all the res they put into dcs and ocs =P but...

In mineshaft it is essential to hold Double... The map is made in such a way that aliens have much easier movement than marines, so the rts will keep falling, which means that the marines have to put early pressure on the aliens. Taking double forces the aliens to try to get the marines out, because from double, it's an easy move to seige tram or drill.

as a side note, I've never seen marines win if they don't have mineshaft double by about 10 mins.


I also don't know about most of you, but fortifying double means you get a nice phase-base in a key location, as double is almost always in some central location on teh map. (i.e. marines can phase there and run to any other location in a short time)

Small chokepoints are easy for a fade to get past/kill. 1 one big defends itself much better than 2 smaller ones. Iounno... fades are scared of 8 or so turrents, but 4? bah.

Yes, in ns_mineshaft, it is absolutely necessary to have double. I would go so far as to relocate to there (it's a hotspot, but if you can do it, you're within a short distance to two hives and two other RTs).

I know some people say relocating is ultimately an exercise in futility, but this is the one map where I think it is absolutely necessary to relocate.

You usually need to attack the double node because if you don't the aliens will get it practically free, and if you don't force them to defend it then they will be free to roam around which means the plan of taking the other nodes just got alot harder. But I agree that commanders need to be careful not to get too attached to a particular location or plan. It is oh so easy to send the game into a spiraling mass of futility when a plan doesn't come together as you wanted.

This is kind of a misleading discussion though because it varies so much by map and often specifically which hive aliens start. Comparing nano-grid to say, reactor room, is kind of silly. I think it is much more important to analyze the location of a particular spot on the map, the fact that there is an extra node in a strategically important room is just gravy.

One map i've never won on without a relocate to double is ns_caged. It's such an important point of the map giving you easy access to two hives, vent and generator as well as the 2 res nodes there. The marine base on caged is horrible with quite a mission to get anywhere, particulary to somewhere like ventilation. I don't recall, in recent weeks seeing marines win on caged without a dbl relocate. Before this time i don't remember.

On other maps like tanith or veil though dbl is of little concern to me and whilst it's nice to hold it, it isn't as important as other locations on the maps cargo or chem transport.

Double on caged is a deathtrap against aggressive aliens, imo

Veil's double is so freakin easy for the marines to lock down.

one place to take (not reloc) is hera dres.
jsut set down a outpost in reception with siege cover. or even better, (forgot name) if you go from base to the small (was weldable) door to that rt, go up the ladder/elevator, then up there si a perfect siege location. With the new "big" hallways hardly a kharaa passes through in the entire game.

I like to either:

- Rush double and hold it alone or with a buddy. Aliens go "OMG rines are taking double" and focus a large percentage of their attention on double... lightening the load on the rines in other parts of the map.

- Pass through in 2-3 minutes with a squad of 3-4 marines to kill, rape, and pillage whatever alien objects are located inside. Aliens again go "OMG", again setting up a sneaky rambo to set up a PG and TF near a hive so we can hit them where it hurts MORE! at the worst we lose 3-4 rines and distract the aliens for a while, best we take out some RTs as well.

Thought i'd add this experience: I was comming yesterday on ns_origin, the aliens had biodome as starting hive, with lame deluxe in double res. we had furnace side. i decided to siege double res to cripple their economy, since they only had 2 res towers beyond it. it worked superb! only two res h0es (why cant you just write it normally ) got a chance to go onos and fade, and they both died fortunately. it also opened up another path to ventilation, though we also used the vent from ore. morale of the story ... >>>

Anyone who thinks they have to relocate on any map to win has not commed very long or not learned anything about the game yet. Capping double in the beginning of the game (before anything else) is just not smart. Having a couple rines there to scramble some eggs or to post in the hallway is a good idea though. Your pressure team should beat the aliens there (depending on map).

Turkey22: I don't knwo about you, but relocing to double in ns_mineshaft is one of the best things you can do. No, it's not vital to winning the game, but it makes it much easier. In fact, on mineshaft, MS has to be the worst place for your base. It's nowhere near anything. You have to either get phase quickly or relocate.

Capping double at the beginning isn't smart? that's just rediculous. If teh aliens were kind enough to let you have it free, then cap it! if they put up a tremendous fight, then yeah, go elsewhere.

It's still all about tactical versatility. There is no best way. It's all about doing what's best at that VERY MOMENT.

Press to double early, don't cap. One Gorge mic spamming "OMG THEYRE IN DOUBLE" and the entire alien team will be there in 10 seconds. The rest of the map is now empty. Kharaa aren't respawning to go elsewhere because you aren't killing them. They're being useless, you now control the res.

At about three-five minutes into the game, when Aliens should be trying to put up a hive, harass double. Wham, everyone goes there again. Then they start dropping chambers there to keep marines out. If you make them waste res placing chambers in double, a place where all of your marines are going to steer clear of, that's wasted res on the alien's part. No hive, easily sieged upgrade chambers, and enemies patrolling an area where none of your team is going.

Meanwhile, you have 6-7 res and heavies on the way.

Teh Winnarz0rs - Marines!

Don't totally agree rush. I'm prone to send in just a few strong grunts, who can hold the double with say 1 armory and an electrified RT. This means minimal res is wasted, because all that is gonna be attacking is maybe the odd skulk or 5, 3 rines can handle 5 skulks, especially if they don't all rush together.
It's when the fade(s) come out to play that you really need to e.r.e.c.t(omg) a nice TF and maybe a few turrets. This can only happen if you are hanging on to double by the time sum 1 has 50 res and is attacking. I would probably have assaulted a hive by which time; as opposed to having 3 tough-a$$ marines camp the area. It's always nice to have options though; camp, don't camp :>

The latter is basically just a more elborate, specific version of my previous post.

And btw, Relocation can work if most of the team deffends the relocation site, I have been part of a few excellently executed relocation rushes.

Relocation is good if you're fast and competent, though I have to say that its not NECESSARY on MOST official maps.

Tho have to say, never won a game on mineshaft that involved keeping a base in spawn..... not against a competent alien team anyhow.

i always try to get the RT nodes near my base i NEVER relocate to double its the 1st place the aliens look

I think specifically not reloacting to double merely for the fact that the aliens will find you is silly. No matter where the marines relocate to, the aliens will find them, it's merely a function of time. The only thoughts in relocation should be:

• Is the place defendable?
• How much will moving cost us Economically, Tatically, and Strategically?
• How much will it hurt the aliens Economically, Tatically, or Strategically?

Quite obviously relocating is done to gain an advantage or in an emergancy, otherwise its a mistake. "Duh", I'm sure you're all thinking. Well thats why I want to point out that relocating to somewhere obvious (double rez) is not as a matter of couse, a bad idea. One could make the argument that relocating to double to not only physically or materially help but, help to sap the aliens morale.
As to the matter of the electrified rez nodes; I feel there is no hard and fast rule to it. As with nearly all aspects of the Commander's job, this point must be flexable. Maintaining a steady flow of rez is absolutely vital to the marines, anything that impeeds that (electrification) should be avoided. However in light of the fact that skulks can easily chew through rez nodes, a good Commander should know when its needed to preserve the rez node or deny it to the aliens. Bear in mind that a alien requires 25 rez to cap a node, where a marine node is 15 or 45 depending on the level of investment in it. So if we merely compare the pricing for each side the rez nodes, even electrified, requires 1.3 min or 80 secs (20 rez @ 4 sec/ 1 rez) to make the node a even rez cost. Here I will declare right now, not to get too obsessed about this stlye of comparing costs! This view is only useful in the long term strategic view, the short term costs are vastly different.
What this really points out is the large gulf in thinking between tatical and strategic thinking as it pertains to rez economics. Some Commanders rely on short term losses and gains to acheive results while others tend to rely on more long term gains to eventually overwhelm the enemy. Personally, I tend to rely on long-term thinking, this allows me to make tatical blunders or have porr quaity marines but still mantain a sharp advantage. This can be illistrated by a HA train getting destroyed by a lone Onos and skulks while attacking a hive but, not caring as we still hold most of the rez nodes on the map.
Which is the best? I don't know. Like most situations, each is unique and no one solution is best. I would rather claim that expierence is by far the best teacher, that despite what we say or type here, it will only resolved by the Commander in the chair.

what a good point y did i not think of that START A WAR FOR THE FUN OF IT

Sometimes an early sweep n clear through dbl can net you a lot of res from easy alien kills (since most aliens are going to be heading that way).

As others have said, this WILL make aliens rush dbl, so you can send the ninjas round back to siege a hive to hell. Let them camp in dbl, by the time they leave you'll have at least a hive down, and when they're counter rushing you can simply siege dbl to hell.

In fact if you're planning to rush hive, it might be a good idea to rush dbl a bit just to get the aliens stoked. While they're milling around there, you simply hit the furthest hive, and hit it HARD. You can bacon it back to spawn and then rush the opposite hive while the aliens are all over the map wondering what the hell just happened. Guerilla warfare teh win.


My ideal dbl strat is sieging dbl to small pieces (if need be, and only from "safe" terrain) and then putting up two rts before moving on. Strictly solo marine work, while your muscle is elsewhere pressuring hives.





Edit - few extra thoughts added.

Well yes, relocating to dbl res room is usually waste of time. You send 4 marines there, and there 3-5 skulks there waiting for them. Its a slaughter, then theres 1 little skulk who sneaks to MS and gets the CC. Aliens win, gg.
But the relocation in some maps are quite useful, with good team. Like ns_hera. Theres 3 nodes right near the double, processing, hera reception and cargo. If the marines cap those 5, it 50% of the RTs already.

Hmmm... extend my thought processes? Well... Let me see.

It seems that the whole concept of long-term stratgeic thinking for Commanding is mostly reduced to rez warfare. Obviously not straight out economic warfare (tarffis are right out) but, merely the simple equations of having a greater rez flow then the aliens for a longer time, then be able to utilize that rez flow into equipment and tatical use. With the centralized rez gathering that the marines possess, this potentially allows the marines to exapnd to key locations rapidly and maintain the momentum. This means that obviously taking and holding more rez for a longer time means you will eventually have all the rez you need to win. There are maps however, where its near impossible to gain a clear economic advantage over the aliens, thus negating this apporach. Remember its not just the amount of rez the marines have its how much more they have over the aliens, to give them the tatical advantage. So you need to gain and hold rez nodes, destroy the alien rez nodes and protect your territory.

To this end I would think that establishing a 'line' of key points would make the best long term sense. This line is really a collection of vital points on the map, double rez, hive, or siege locations. This line should server to deter low level aliens from breaking through this line are attack your rear rez nodes, allow your marines to get to the front quickly, and funnel the alien attacks to managable or expendable locations.

This 'line' would allow all the rear rts to be defended by a remote line of defenses. Spending 30 rts on a single rt to defend it is a bit much but, how much to protect 2 rts? or 3? or more? While creating a phase gate, a tf and turrets might be pricey, it is much better then spending rez on electrifying all the rts all the way back to marine start. Recall, that we are trying to be effcient with our defense costs. Keep in mind that 'patching holes' in this line will invariably cost extra rez but, still it manages to keep the overall costs lower.

Its important to destroy every alien rez node when it becomes viable to do so. Each alien rez nodes costs them 20 rez, well worth the time to kill them if there is time to spare. Its useful to keep in mind that on most alien teams there will be a few people that will not spend any rez on nodes or towers. They will save their rez soley to evolve into high life forms; fades, lerk, or onos. If you are aggresive at keeping the aliens rez poor, the number and frequency of these aliens will be rare. In particular fades and onos should be priority targets when they appear. Not only are they potentially dangerous to your defenses, they are massive concentrations of alien rez that are just begged to be destroyed.

Keeping the pressure on the aliens is also a very important aspect of winning. Taking the fight to the aliens means that they can not take the time to start attacking your defenses. Send marines to destroy their nodes, chambers, and start raiding their hives. Do whatever you need to, to keep the aliens heading to help defend something rather then giving them time to go after you.

As with each plan, there will be problems that arise, whether it is marines not doing their jobs, bad luck, aliens working extremely well together, etc... etc... I can only say use this as a guide for long term fighting. Establish your 'line', keep the pressure on the aliens to keep them off you, and cripple their rez.


OK this is the long term approach as I see it. Of course I did not address at all how the tatical aspects integrate with this. I obviously can't predict that for every game. This is merely attempt to express as plainly as I can what I see what a Comm needs to do to win in a long term game. Secure your nodes, destroy theirs, and keep the pressure on them.

I prefer to lock down map areas at good choke points. That way I can pile the resources of three minibases into one area, making it very easy to defend. In fact, you could spend the resources of two smaller bases and just save the third.

However, you need to keep attacking. Keeping a bigger res flow is all well and good, but if you spend poorly or if you're tight with the cash then you're in a world of hurt, since Kharaa can use a VERY fast rush which can leave your base in tatters - meaning you can't spend the res you hoarded up.

I have been in games where the comm has been talking about saving res, getting upgrades, but the aliens mounted a fast rush and hit all our upgrades. What looked like a solid win had been turned around in the space of a minute. Thankfully our retaliation managed to drain what little resources the aliens had, and we managed to claw it back.


Just a thing to note whenever you're managing your income.

I like doubles, since trying to get a whole bunch of rts elsewhere leaves them wide open to a "bunch-o-skulk" chowdown. It is better to consolidate at double and expand from there. Trying to defend 3-4 rts centralized is far easier than trying to defend 4-5 spread out.