Basically, I propose moving catalyst reseach from the arms lab to the armory. Reason: Simple, when given a choice between upgrading rine armour/weapons and getting some expensive packs to help them out sometimes, comms alwasy go for the upgrades, therefor there the arms lab is always busy. So, much like grenades, move them to the armory.
Opinions?
Full Version: Move Catalyst Research
Unknown Worlds Forums > Natural Selection > Natural Selection Discussion > Ideas and Suggestions Forum > Ideas for future versions
True, I don't often bother to research cat-packs due the fact that ups are so much more important to have. If they were in armory, it would be a choise between nades and cat-packs, and since options are always good... +++
Agreed.
I have only ever researched cat-packs after weapon & armour 3. -The arms lab time is just too valuable, and catalysts just aren't that useful. (Compared to Weapons/Armour at least.)
Moving them to the armoury would further diversify the rine tech-tree, and I'm all for that.
I have only ever researched cat-packs after weapon & armour 3. -The arms lab time is just too valuable, and catalysts just aren't that useful. (Compared to Weapons/Armour at least.)
Moving them to the armoury would further diversify the rine tech-tree, and I'm all for that.
Very good idea, indeed!
i always research Catalyst at last since the upgrades are muich mor important for my rines.
moving this to the armory would surely make it more availiable!
i always research Catalyst at last since the upgrades are muich mor important for my rines.
moving this to the armory would surely make it more availiable!
Thumbs up.
Uh... not much more to say. Everything's been said already
Uh... not much more to say. Everything's been said already
Well, um, glad to see people agree with me. Um.
I think that moving them to the Protolab would be a tad more appropriate, being advanced tech and all. But that's just me.
Agree 99%. The only problem I see is, the armory takes quite a bit of time when its upgrading, which may put the cat pack research out of bounds. Though as to what other building to move them to, I have no idea.
But the armory is definently better than the arms lab. Thumbs up.
But the armory is definently better than the arms lab. Thumbs up.
i like the armory idea, especially since by the time i have the res to research catpacks, i normally already have another armory up, in a hive location or double.
Actually... after lvl 2 guns and armor... Cat Packs become very helpful, a good crossover while waiting for lvl 3 to come!
| QUOTE (BlueNovember @ Mar 19 2004, 08:21 AM) |
| Agreed. I have only ever researched cat-packs after weapon & armour 3. -The arms lab time is just too valuable, and catalysts just aren't that useful. (Compared to Weapons/Armour at least.) |
Bu what if....you have A3/W3 and catpacks?
Yay for marines that can run faster than skulks and shoot so quick you'll be killed before you could say 'OH NOES!'
Of course, I wished moving it to the armory would be good but here is our inherent flaw now:
If it is moved to the armory, the commander can finally spend his res on them. Since the armory is available early in the game, it means rather quick research.
Once it's finished researching, well, you can expect to see lots of skulks dying due to the fact that they get slaughtered by catpacked LMGers.
That's where that inherent flaw comes in. If we move it to marines, then what would the skulks get?
MCs don't work, guns still mow you down.
DCs? Carapace doesn't get effective if you only have 1 hive
SCs? One scan, and poof.
Of course, aliens can go SCs first, but due to the DMS mindset, they'll not be as good with SCs as with DCs.
Not that I don't like the idea, but I see a flaw in it.
simply raise the cost o catpack research slightly, so make it less cost effective early game. Besides, I still think an ArmsLab and level1 armor is better than catpack spamm, which gets VERY costly earlygame
| QUOTE (RaVe @ Mar 19 2004, 03:50 PM) |
| Of course, I wished moving it to the armory would be good but here is our inherent flaw now: If it is moved to the armory, the commander can finally spend his res on them. Since the armory is available early in the game, it means rather quick research. Once it's finished researching, well, you can expect to see lots of skulks dying due to the fact that they get slaughtered by catpacked LMGers. That's where that inherent flaw comes in. If we move it to marines, then what would the skulks get? |
Accept 4 res to hopefully kill a skulk, not to mention you have to get to the trouble spot in time doesnt sound like good value to me.
| QUOTE (RaVe @ Mar 19 2004, 09:50 PM) |
| If it is moved to the armory, the commander can finally spend his res on them. [...] If we move it to marines, then what would the skulks get? |
You sound like that Catpacks weren´t meant to be helpful for rines, just a gimmick at lategame or something to waste res on!
Good thinking!! I think it doesn't really fit in the armory either though... it already takes forever to upgrade the armory.
How bout you get the upgrade at the comm chair? It makes sense, as that's where the medpacks and ammo packs come from (they get ordered up from the cc, the nanites in the ceiling actually make em).
How bout you get the upgrade at the comm chair? It makes sense, as that's where the medpacks and ammo packs come from (they get ordered up from the cc, the nanites in the ceiling actually make em).
This is actually one of the best suggestions in recent memory.
Pros
-Faster Rine movement = "GET TO TRIAD!!!!" faster
-Costs 4 res so no need to worry about cat-spam
-(somewhat) counters early fades and WoL's
Cons
-Alien res nodes will go down a lot faster
I'm sure there's more cons, but I really cant think of any.
Pros
-Faster Rine movement = "GET TO TRIAD!!!!" faster
-Costs 4 res so no need to worry about cat-spam
-(somewhat) counters early fades and WoL's
Cons
-Alien res nodes will go down a lot faster
I'm sure there's more cons, but I really cant think of any.
| QUOTE (RaVe @ Mar 19 2004, 03:50 PM) | ||
Bu what if....you have A3/W3 and catpacks? Yay for marines that can run faster than skulks and shoot so quick you'll be killed before you could say 'OH NOES!' Of course, I wished moving it to the armory would be good but here is our inherent flaw now: If it is moved to the armory, the commander can finally spend his res on them. Since the armory is available early in the game, it means rather quick research. Once it's finished researching, well, you can expect to see lots of skulks dying due to the fact that they get slaughtered by catpacked LMGers. That's where that inherent flaw comes in. If we move it to marines, then what would the skulks get? MCs don't work, guns still mow you down. DCs? Carapace doesn't get effective if you only have 1 hive SCs? One scan, and poof. Of course, aliens can go SCs first, but due to the DMS mindset, they'll not be as good with SCs as with DCs. Not that I don't like the idea, but I see a flaw in it. |
That is a good point, if you get the cat packs only after you get adv armory or when you get phase tech or something else that is up in the tech tree
| QUOTE ([BFG]-|NiKoN|- @ Mar 19 2004, 03:57 PM) |
| simply raise the cost o catpack research slightly, so make it less cost effective early game. Besides, I still think an ArmsLab and level1 armor is better than catpack spamm, which gets VERY costly earlygame |
Yes.
I'd like to see this idea paired with my earlier suggestion for an AoE catalyst. That would pretty much fix all the problems I can see with catalyst right now.
[bump]
it doesn't realy make any sence any where. make it a phase gate research. since they drop anywhere on the map. like med pack, and ammo. and ammo/med packs are kinda phased in....
dont realy know. all I know is eatehr way cat packs would be last on the armory.
You could just cut the research time in half
dont realy know. all I know is eatehr way cat packs would be last on the armory.
You could just cut the research time in half
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind at all if catpacs were abandoned as a failed experiment. The things just aren't that useful, and certainly not worth all the trouble. Unless matters are completely different in organized play or something, that is.
| QUOTE (OG17 @ Mar 28 2004, 09:54 PM) |
| To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind at all if catpacs were abandoned as a failed experiment. The things just aren't that useful, and certainly not worth all the trouble. Unless matters are completely different in organized play or something, that is. |
Agreed... but if they find a way to usefully impliment them (IE: They get used in actual games) then I'm all for them.
100% YES!!!
Arms Lab is either always researching, and cat packs arn't valuable enough to slow down your weapon/armor research.
Arms Lab is either always researching, and cat packs arn't valuable enough to slow down your weapon/armor research.
| QUOTE (OG17 @ Mar 29 2004, 02:54 AM) |
| To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind at all if catpacs were abandoned as a failed experiment. The things just aren't that useful, and certainly not worth all the trouble. Unless matters are completely different in organized play or something, that is. |
The thing is, they are useless right now because they almost always come into play when the game is coming to a close. Here's how I'd use cats if they were moved to armoury
-Up cats before adv armoury
-Give a couple of guys I know and trust shotties. Watch over them. OH NOES! FADE! *betweeew* cat *betweeet* cat. Dead fade.
or
"Take out that res node"
"Ok Thrill, but it's close to the hive, Ill probably die before I get half way
"No prob"
*betweeeeeeew* Herion
"
*hackhackhackhackhackhackhack* dead node.
To be more honest, I'm also concerned that if catpacs become more accessible, they'll be overpowered (no one notices now, as no one uses them). What you describe is very plausible for a comm good at Starcraft-style micro, and I don't like the sound of it at all.
So I see it as a choice between unused and overbearing, and neither's good.
Edit: And yeah, that first post was a bit of a half-truth. Was hoping not to get into this.
So I see it as a choice between unused and overbearing, and neither's good.
Edit: And yeah, that first post was a bit of a half-truth. Was hoping not to get into this.
This is by far the best suggestion I've read in ages. Infact it's not just a suggestion.
It's gotta be in NS3!!
It's gotta be in NS3!!
What if catpacks worked just like in starcraft(*cough*perfect rip off*cough*)? That it'd be free of charge, but would drop the health for the marine? That was in in the first beta(not the free part). Then you'd see it earlygame, but not spammed. Solved
OR not... the health penalty was removed because of comms being able to abuse it, right?
Though that is teh l0se, killing your own guys...
OR not... the health penalty was removed because of comms being able to abuse it, right?
Though that is teh l0se, killing your own guys...
we all know of millions of better ways for a comm to screw you... so that shouldn't even be considered.
IMO Catpacks should be dropped to 3 res a pack... so at least you have your overhead cost eliminated if the marine kills something (possibly). Or increase it's duration. Or let it speed up the reload process!
just... something to make it better!!!! they are not worth the 20 for research and 4 per drop right now!
IMO Catpacks should be dropped to 3 res a pack... so at least you have your overhead cost eliminated if the marine kills something (possibly). Or increase it's duration. Or let it speed up the reload process!
just... something to make it better!!!! they are not worth the 20 for research and 4 per drop right now!
Nice idea.
Cats + hive + rines with l2 shotguns = gg
Cats + hive + rines with l2 shotguns = gg
OK, so anyone not like this now ignored idea?
This idea is "of such a scale that it is unlikely to make it into the upcoming version"? Really?. Whatever, glad to see it is appreciated. I just think Cats are a good, but far underused idea.
To be fair, most good comms use cat packs in at least one of their strats. Please tell me that a cat packed w1-2 shotgunner blocking a doorway is inneffective against a fleeing fade.
Most pub games I comm, if my marines can shoot I'll research cat packs before w2. This is usually around the 3-4 minute mark. With a few shotguns and a good alert comm, dropping meds and a couple of cats will cripple the offensive capability of early fades, as they are ridiculously easily repelled.
2 cat packed shotgunners can take a fade down very quickly in an enclosed map such as ns_eclipse.
I agree that moving their research cost to the armory has both pros and cons, however the current drop price of 4 res per pack is what is in more urgent need of change.
For the price of a single cat pack you could have dropped 2 meds, that would effectively give a decent com (who can med accurately) marines that can take 5 bites at a1, or shoot 25% faster (depending on meds or catalyst).
The experienced community all know that cat packing LMGers is pretty useless, all you will do is waste the marine's ammo faster than he expects, putting him in a bad position.
The skill in using the LMG is tracking the target, a RoF boost will simply throw off that marines rhythm and put them in a worse position than if they had been medded.
However, at 4-5mins when fades and shotguns are present, cat packs can make a dramatic influence to the course of the game, having the capability to down even experienced fades due to one simple fact.
Fades time their attacks based on how much damage they sustain over a period of time. For example, HMG or LMG's are worse for attacking fades than a shotgun because they deliver a consistant amount of damage per second. Fades can better expect when to be reduced to a safe amount of HP to leave and heal.
Shotguns however deal an irregular amount of damage, mainly due to their unique pellet based damage structure, and the fact that they fire in single shots and not sustained bursts.
So, cat packing a HMGer or an LMGer is (usually) less effective than cat packing a shotgunner.
So, cat packs are most effective mid-game when fades and shotguns are just beginning to appear, which is around the end of the marines early-game dominance.
CON
Hence, by moving the catalyst research to the armory, early tech rushes will enable marines to have a1/w2 and catalyst packs without any drop in research time.
PRO
This will promote non-linear strategies such as cat/w1 rushes, or early a1/cat shotgun rushes, which are currently unfeasible due to the linearity of the marine tech structure.
CON
CPP (Cost Per Pack) will be effectively the same, making them unfeasible for early/mid game use unless marines have an effective RT dominance. This will make them much less likely to be researched and/or used.
PRO
Diversifies the marine tech tree allowing more non-linear strategies and helping to break the current (a1, w1-w3,a2-a3) dominating tech sequence.
PRO
Diversified marine strategies will further promote aliens to break the rigid DMS mindset and use more flexible and diversified strategies themselves.
*dons a flameproof suit*
Most pub games I comm, if my marines can shoot I'll research cat packs before w2. This is usually around the 3-4 minute mark. With a few shotguns and a good alert comm, dropping meds and a couple of cats will cripple the offensive capability of early fades, as they are ridiculously easily repelled.
2 cat packed shotgunners can take a fade down very quickly in an enclosed map such as ns_eclipse.
I agree that moving their research cost to the armory has both pros and cons, however the current drop price of 4 res per pack is what is in more urgent need of change.
For the price of a single cat pack you could have dropped 2 meds, that would effectively give a decent com (who can med accurately) marines that can take 5 bites at a1, or shoot 25% faster (depending on meds or catalyst).
The experienced community all know that cat packing LMGers is pretty useless, all you will do is waste the marine's ammo faster than he expects, putting him in a bad position.
The skill in using the LMG is tracking the target, a RoF boost will simply throw off that marines rhythm and put them in a worse position than if they had been medded.
However, at 4-5mins when fades and shotguns are present, cat packs can make a dramatic influence to the course of the game, having the capability to down even experienced fades due to one simple fact.
Fades time their attacks based on how much damage they sustain over a period of time. For example, HMG or LMG's are worse for attacking fades than a shotgun because they deliver a consistant amount of damage per second. Fades can better expect when to be reduced to a safe amount of HP to leave and heal.
Shotguns however deal an irregular amount of damage, mainly due to their unique pellet based damage structure, and the fact that they fire in single shots and not sustained bursts.
So, cat packing a HMGer or an LMGer is (usually) less effective than cat packing a shotgunner.
So, cat packs are most effective mid-game when fades and shotguns are just beginning to appear, which is around the end of the marines early-game dominance.
CON
Hence, by moving the catalyst research to the armory, early tech rushes will enable marines to have a1/w2 and catalyst packs without any drop in research time.
PRO
This will promote non-linear strategies such as cat/w1 rushes, or early a1/cat shotgun rushes, which are currently unfeasible due to the linearity of the marine tech structure.
CON
CPP (Cost Per Pack) will be effectively the same, making them unfeasible for early/mid game use unless marines have an effective RT dominance. This will make them much less likely to be researched and/or used.
PRO
Diversifies the marine tech tree allowing more non-linear strategies and helping to break the current (a1, w1-w3,a2-a3) dominating tech sequence.
PRO
Diversified marine strategies will further promote aliens to break the rigid DMS mindset and use more flexible and diversified strategies themselves.
*dons a flameproof suit*
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