For everyone in clans who cares about where clanplay in ns is going, you really need to get behind this:
http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml
As of this posting everything short of extra stuff(because they haven't seen it yet) is endorsed by all of sYn and Rusher(from TAU-ns) All of these people have lots of experience under clan match conditions. I encourage you to read this as it includes a discussion of the top strategies being used right now, and what needs to be fixed in this game to improve the depth of matches.
If you agree with this article I encourage you to post here and endorse it, please include your match experience and clan.
If you disagree with it that's fine too, but before you say anything please post your match experience and clan as well.
If you're a dev I would love to hear what you have to say, also feel free to email me at shambler@shambler.net
As for me I'm eats, formerly from TAU but currently in sYn, and I have played over 50 rounds under match conditions against other clans.
Full Version: Very Important Clan Balance Stuff-read It!
Unknown Worlds Forums > Natural Selection > Natural Selection Organized Play > Leagues & Tournaments
[EC:Fam]. I do not have much game experience, as I cannot currently play NS, but I do keep up with what my clan is doing and also the spirit of NS. However, as a playtester and a long time NS fan, I cannot agree with what you have got going on here. The very problems you seem to be 'addressing' are those which give freedom for tactics.
I would like to see model consistency enforced, along with r_drawviewmodel locked to 1. Skulks are not meant to be killers on four legs, they are meant to be scouts and last ditch defence. If you find it too hard to play as a skulk with the viewmodel on, you need more practice.
From what I can see, Fades are a tad too strong at the moment. You do not seem to address this point, and instead moan about Alien turrets and webs, which are defensive in nature. The aliens are meant to be the defensive team.
The economic system is balanced. A lot of work went into balancing it not only for public play, but also for clan play. Until a few of the current bugs get fixed, this will not be visible.
Don't bash the Lerk just because you have problems using it please.
Tell that to eBnar, or Ekaj. A lerk is more than viable.
Sounds like a good tactic to me, rather than a bug. Marines have siege turrets.
Why do you feel the need to put a cap on everything? Inbalances caused by bugs can be fixed by balancing, not by restrictions. Inbalances caused by skill are part of the very game itself. Inbalances caused by tactics are what makes NS so great.
I care where clanplay is going. And as such I cannot stand behind this, sorry.
| QUOTE |
| -The skulk bite model makes Jesus cry(I know I didn't mention this but either league rules should be changed to be able to turn this off, or it should just be altered to not cover the whole screen. Not only is it annoying and headache inducing, but it makes being a skulk considerably harder. But: This will not balance the 2 races at the one hive stage! Do not fix this and think the problem is solved!) |
I would like to see model consistency enforced, along with r_drawviewmodel locked to 1. Skulks are not meant to be killers on four legs, they are meant to be scouts and last ditch defence. If you find it too hard to play as a skulk with the viewmodel on, you need more practice.
| QUOTE |
| Even if the marines are able to bring down one hive after the alien team is composed of fades and lerks the aliens will still have a 95% chance of winning. I have never seen aliens lose once they got fade/lerk going. |
From what I can see, Fades are a tad too strong at the moment. You do not seem to address this point, and instead moan about Alien turrets and webs, which are defensive in nature. The aliens are meant to be the defensive team.
| QUOTE |
| Basically the game has a very weak economic system right now, which could be altered to add a lot of depth to the game. |
The economic system is balanced. A lot of work went into balancing it not only for public play, but also for clan play. Until a few of the current bugs get fixed, this will not be visible.
| QUOTE |
| Basically the lerk should have no inertia in regards to changing direction during flight. This would make the lerk far more mobile, and much easier to use. |
Don't bash the Lerk just because you have problems using it please.
| QUOTE |
| -A One Hive Lerk is not viable |
Tell that to eBnar, or Ekaj. A lerk is more than viable.
| QUOTE |
| This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs. |
Sounds like a good tactic to me, rather than a bug. Marines have siege turrets.
| QUOTE |
| If a cap on his flight time is needed it should instead be a time or flap limit. |
Why do you feel the need to put a cap on everything? Inbalances caused by bugs can be fixed by balancing, not by restrictions. Inbalances caused by skill are part of the very game itself. Inbalances caused by tactics are what makes NS so great.
I care where clanplay is going. And as such I cannot stand behind this, sorry.
| QUOTE (Fam @ Nov 24 2002, 03:52 PM) |
| Tell that to eBnar, or Ekaj. A lerk is more than viable. |
Luckly, I have not yet seen Ekaj as a lerk. However I have seen Ebby and SmokeMasta as lerks and let me tell you, I dont care if you have an HMG/Lvl 3 upgrades, and HA - if you see ebby or smoke as a lerk drop everything you have and just try to run. You arn't going to live. Thats the bottom line. After seeing these two masters in work I have tried, many times, to become talented with a lerk. It is by far one of the most complex aliens to learn and master. That is possibly why people are complaining - they rather just walk up to something and swing at it a few times. That is not the case with the lerk.
| QUOTE |
| This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs. |
That actually, isn't one of the better ideas I could think of. If the marines are extremely RP deprived then yes, this would be helpful. But if they have/save up for 75 (1 TF, Upgrade to seige, and 1 seige) then this plan isn't so good. Those structres will be gone rather quickly - and the more structres you have the more damange one seige does (good ol' splash damage!) Generally, I would only set up 5 Def Chambers close to, not right up next to, the marine spawn when we are attacking. You have to make sure that they are out of the seiges range.
[EC.Insane], EC member. As for game experience, about 4 scrims and countless passworded matches (i.e where organised play is much more common).
I totally and utterly agree with Fam here. The game was designed for clan play as well as pub, so the way it works should hold up for clan play, and does. A few more things:
The marines have siege. This balances out just fine, and for those on the alien side, it almost feels unbalanced.
You may feel that, but it is just going to encourage l337 clans to start playing for kills. That's why it was left out.
This would unbalance it towards aliens. It bascially reduces the necessity to spend rp's on resource towers because the alien team have been transformed into moble resource collectors.
I don't get what you're trying to do here. It looks like you're trying to heavily change a game design that has been painstakingly worked on for two years, with months of playtests sorting out the balance.
I totally and utterly agree with Fam here. The game was designed for clan play as well as pub, so the way it works should hold up for clan play, and does. A few more things:
| QUOTE |
| Web and Tower Spam will soon become unbalanced |
The marines have siege. This balances out just fine, and for those on the alien side, it almost feels unbalanced.
| QUOTE |
| In tournament mode show marine kills(why not? I can assure you clans are not going to play for who can get the most kills) |
You may feel that, but it is just going to encourage l337 clans to start playing for kills. That's why it was left out.
| QUOTE |
| Alien ability where standing on an unclaimed resource nozzle heals alien health and armor, and when the alien is at full health, this slightly improves his resource flow. |
This would unbalance it towards aliens. It bascially reduces the necessity to spend rp's on resource towers because the alien team have been transformed into moble resource collectors.
I don't get what you're trying to do here. It looks like you're trying to heavily change a game design that has been painstakingly worked on for two years, with months of playtests sorting out the balance.
That article is very long so therefore it must be good! 
And as far as the Fade is concerned _and_ the Armor/Carapace Bug, it's going to be taken care of as I've heard in IRC.
As for the Lerk, and the Skulk Bite model, for the Lerk, learn to fly and to glide and to make proper usage of your attacks and their abilities, you do not need Umbra to be awesome. And Spore Cloud isn't that great, since any smart marine doesn't you know, stand around in it getting hurt? And the Skulk Bite model, the same thing I find myself yelling at Terminotaur in game when he turns his models on, "QUIT SPAMMING YOU IDIOT! ACQUIRE THE TARGET THEN BITE!" since if you just spam you can never see anything (which I'm to understand is the idea, continue to play and practice, and follow in Grendel's footsteps of Skulk Domination with out having to turn off models)
And the clan matches as I'm seeing them, are double Alien wins, not Marine wins. Regardless of the arguements that "Marines own Aliens early game" because early game you don't have carapace, and Marines are ranged, Aliens are melee. Solution: Do not rush Marines head on, lie in wait, coordinate attacks, voice comm helps for this, and work in pairs. That's the great thing about FF on and that BIG BEAUITFUL MUZZLE FLASH, when skulks get in close, a.k.a. biting distance, the bullets fly into your partners backs and the muzzle flash blocks the line of sight to the floor making it harder to see the nasty little buggers.
Edit: 33 percent FF I feel is a good thing, sometimes people can get jumpy, or scared, and when you come running back to say a defense spot to heal yourself, an ally might accidentally bite you for whatever reason, or a Gorge could end up spitting you instead of health spray. Also let's not forget all Alien attacks that do awesome damage are melee, person to person. So when 3 Fades are attacking one thing, there is a huge fear of hitting the other one, or skulks/lerks/gorges that may be underneath them attacking as well. 33 percent works, you don't mow your friends down, but there is still a fear/chance of doing it.
Fam didn't bring up all the good points. There's still this "Shambler" guy's crack addiction to contend with. 
He's right in that Kharaa are more powerful than Frontiersman right now. Between things like the Carapace bug, Fade's boosting in recent patches and the TF tweak, there's a lot of pressure on the marines to bring a lot of firepower everywhere at once.
He's right that Enhanced Hive Sight would be cooler if it were changed to something cooler.
Racing in the Indy 500 does not make you Jacques Villeneuve. This kind of credential means nothing. The only way to prove you know what you're talking about is to say things which make sense, and this article doesn't.
He's right in that Kharaa are more powerful than Frontiersman right now. Between things like the Carapace bug, Fade's boosting in recent patches and the TF tweak, there's a lot of pressure on the marines to bring a lot of firepower everywhere at once.
He's right that Enhanced Hive Sight would be cooler if it were changed to something cooler.
| QUOTE |
| I have played over 25 scrims in NS. That is over 50 rounds of clan play. I played in the TAU/EC match that some of you might have watched(though I must say it doesn't truly reflect clanplay at all, and is already very dated.) So I have a good idea of what I'm talking about, at least when I talk about what is currently happening in scrims/the clan scene. |
Racing in the Indy 500 does not make you Jacques Villeneuve. This kind of credential means nothing. The only way to prove you know what you're talking about is to say things which make sense, and this article doesn't.
| QUOTE |
| If a cap on his flight time is needed it should instead be a time or flap limit. |
| QUOTE |
| Why do you feel the need to put a cap on everything? Inbalances caused by bugs can be fixed by balancing, not by restrictions. Inbalances caused by skill are part of the very game itself. Inbalances caused by tactics are what makes NS so great. |
......Do you not understand that flaps taking energy is putting a limit on them? I don't care if they have a limit or not frankly, what I think could happen is a lerk could find a craz place to hidein at endgame and force the riens to waste a bunch of time teching to jetpacks.....like hide the farm. I only offered this as an alternative if one is needed.
| QUOTE |
| A One Hive Lerk is not viable |
| QUOTE |
| Tell that to eBnar, or Ekaj. A lerk is more than viable. |
This is such a ridiculous response when you won't even scrim us to let us see them play, seriously. I feel that I have to say this cause everyone is going to count the pts experience like its huge when its not. Just to quantify, you guys pubbed for what? 3, 4 months? and have now in total played....maybe 15 scrims in all the release patches(too many?) Maybe 5 in 1.02, less? I mean, all I can think is that maybe you're thinking about a 2-3 hive lerk? Because we are talking about a 1 hive lerk here.
| QUOTE |
| As for the Lerk, and the Skulk Bite model, for the Lerk, learn to fly and to glide and to make proper usage of your attacks and their abilities, you do not need Umbra to be awesome. |
It's not that its impossible to fly as a lerk. Its that its been made difficult to do because of the actual limitations on the controls. You can't move as fast as you could be able to and improving the lerk in this way would only make him see more use without unbalancing him. It would also enable the lerk to be better because people with more skill could maneuver him better. To not say 1 hive lerk sucks is ridiculous, and even if all of ec blasts me for it I'm sorry, I've played ec and no one is doing great with a one hive lerk right now.
The skulk model is headache inducing and anyone who isn't aware that marines are better then aliens a one hive stage will be soon when everyone actually figures out that scansweeps can be used basically as wallhacks to call incoming for marines.
But even despite this, have you ever seen more then 1 lerk on the alien side pre 2 hive. I mean, thats a weak class system.
| QUOTE |
| That's the great thing about FF on and that BIG BEAUITFUL MUZZLE FLASH, when skulks get in close, a.k.a. biting distance, the bullets fly into your partners backs and the muzzle flash blocks the line of sight to the floor making it harder to see the nasty little buggers. Edit: 33 percent FF I feel is a good thing, sometimes people can get jumpy, or scared, and when you come running back to say a defense spot to heal yourself, an ally might accidentally bite you for whatever reason, or a Gorge could end up spitting you instead of health spray. Also let's not forget all Alien attacks that do awesome damage are melee, person to person. So when 3 Fades are attacking one thing, there is a huge fear of hitting the other one, or skulks/lerks/gorges that may be underneath them attacking as well. 33 percent works, you don't mow your friends down, but there is still a fear/chance of doing it. |
All I see is, I couldn't handle full ff because it makes clans need more skill to play the game.
For the same reason I advocate a better bite model. A better bite model would allow people with more skill to differentiate themselves from people with less skill, by reducing the time when you have to guess which way to turn cause the marine juked in a direction.
| QUOTE |
| Luckly, I have not yet seen Ekaj as a lerk. However I have seen Ebby and SmokeMasta as lerks and let me tell you, I dont care if you have an HMG/Lvl 3 upgrades, and HA - if you see ebby or smoke as a lerk drop everything you have and just try to run. You arn't going to live. Thats the bottom line. After seeing these two masters in work I have tried, many times, to become talented with a lerk. It is by far one of the most complex aliens to learn and master. That is possibly why people are complaining - they rather just walk up to something and swing at it a few times. That is not the case with the lerk. |
This is completely ridiculous, I'm not even replying to it.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs. That actually, isn't one of the better ideas I could think of. If the marines are extremely RP deprived then yes, this would be helpful. But if they have/save up for 75 (1 TF, Upgrade to seige, and 1 seige) then this plan isn't so good. Those structres will be gone rather quickly - and the more structres you have the more damange one seige does (good ol' splash damage!) Generally, I would only set up 5 Def Chambers close to, not right up next to, the marine spawn when we are attacking. You have to make sure that they are out of the seiges range. |
ok, if the game got to this level then marines are screwed, because now they have to spend their rps instead of fighting the alien force fighting a mass of towers, and while they fight this mass of towers the aliens get 3 hives. But I don't even care because I can't prove this. We'll watch it happen for a patch.....and it will be not very fun.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE Basically the game has a very weak economic system right now, which could be altered to add a lot of depth to the game. The economic system is balanced. A lot of work went into balancing it not only for public play, but also for clan play. Until a few of the current bugs get fixed, this will not be visible. |
I would love to see a deeper explanation of this. Please tell me we're supposed to be facting our rts. That would be great.
oh, 1 more:
| QUOTE |
| And the clan matches as I'm seeing them, are double Alien wins, not Marine wins. |
I've given you the rationale behind this, I've given you the strategy behind this. I'm sorry but this is the only thing left I know to do:
sYn vs TE record:
2-0
2-0
1-1(we didn't know map)(also we lost as aliens. TE has never beated our marine.)(Ironically, they marine rushed our hive with shotguns)
2-0
I would love to do this all day, but alas, I have work to do
more later tonight
Wow.
People have different opinions about wether it's balanced or not.
This is too mind blowing.
On a funny sidenote: Even though clan related and "very important" I consider this to be the same callibar of "it's not balanced or fair!" of the general and suggestion forums.
People have different opinions about wether it's balanced or not.
This is too mind blowing.
On a funny sidenote: Even though clan related and "very important" I consider this to be the same callibar of "it's not balanced or fair!" of the general and suggestion forums.
Then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.....
Economy-
the aliens do just throw up the rez towers, and the marines do have considerably less rez towers then aliens.
Regeneration-
I so totally agree with this
Perhaps to make web more of a defensive skill force the gorge to go back to base to "refill" his webbing?
Allow the marine buildings to slowly build, through the use of nano building technology of course.
Only cause his children are being eaten. I like the not being able to see as you bite. It makes me feel like a shark (they cannot keep their eyes open when they bite, perhaps the aliens are the same way)
-Disable the showing of any kills, including the aliens kills, team based game!
now reply to replies!
As they are not locked why don't people who hate teh teeth just bind 2 keys to r_drawviewmodel 0 & r_drawviewmodel 1 ? until it is locked nothing is stopping them.
He addresses it throughout the whole.. thesis fade/lerk is all fade power.
Instead of saying that perhaps try.. Why not fly backwards and when you need a flap move backwards and flap? keeping your flight a reverse direction. I think it is a good idea that the Lerks can change direction, if I had wings I would do that too. When soaring I would want to be able to pan left and right though..
it is viable for the people who are better as Lerks, but to take all the massive plus a builder gets when a
gets max rez is a bad thing.
I would reccomend fixing the bugs. unless it is something cool like rocket jumping.
If the aliens do build towers near the base the marines can siege turret them which will slow the alien attack on the base because they are getting splash damaged on the way.
Is that not what makes games fun to play.. change?
It proves that he is not just giving these ideas from articles he read about the MOD.
Why not the alien is exerting energy to fly, and bite and shoot spines..
Well as long as one team is TOTALLY different then the other, people will always find something that in unbalanced.
What is this a **obscenity** match? Why not stick so your thesis and everyone else can stop measuring their penii as well.. thats right I said penii !
the aliens do just throw up the rez towers, and the marines do have considerably less rez towers then aliens.
Regeneration-
I so totally agree with this
| QUOTE |
| putting a relatively low maximum on webs per gorge(under ten) |
Perhaps to make web more of a defensive skill force the gorge to go back to base to "refill" his webbing?
| QUOTE |
| not allowing alien buildings to slowly auto build |
Allow the marine buildings to slowly build, through the use of nano building technology of course.
| QUOTE |
| The skulk bite model makes Jesus cry |
Only cause his children are being eaten. I like the not being able to see as you bite. It makes me feel like a shark (they cannot keep their eyes open when they bite, perhaps the aliens are the same way)
-Disable the showing of any kills, including the aliens kills, team based game!
now reply to replies!
| QUOTE |
| I would like to see model consistency enforced, along with r_drawviewmodel locked to 1 |
As they are not locked why don't people who hate teh teeth just bind 2 keys to r_drawviewmodel 0 & r_drawviewmodel 1 ? until it is locked nothing is stopping them.
| QUOTE |
| From what I can see, Fades are a tad too strong at the moment. You do not seem to address this point |
He addresses it throughout the whole.. thesis fade/lerk is all fade power.
| QUOTE |
| Don't bash the Lerk just because you have problems using it please. |
Instead of saying that perhaps try.. Why not fly backwards and when you need a flap move backwards and flap? keeping your flight a reverse direction. I think it is a good idea that the Lerks can change direction, if I had wings I would do that too. When soaring I would want to be able to pan left and right though..
| QUOTE |
| A One Hive Lerk is not viable |
it is viable for the people who are better as Lerks, but to take all the massive plus a builder gets when a
gets max rez is a bad thing.| QUOTE |
| Inbalances caused by bugs can be fixed by balancing |
I would reccomend fixing the bugs. unless it is something cool like rocket jumping.
If the aliens do build towers near the base the marines can siege turret them which will slow the alien attack on the base because they are getting splash damaged on the way.
| QUOTE |
| I don't get what you're trying to do here. It looks like you're trying to heavily change a game design that has been painstakingly worked on for two years, with months of playtests sorting out the balance. |
Is that not what makes games fun to play.. change?
| QUOTE |
| Racing in the Indy 500 does not make you Jacques Villeneuve. This kind of credential means nothing. The only way to prove you know what you're talking about is to say things which make sense, and this article doesn't. |
It proves that he is not just giving these ideas from articles he read about the MOD.
| QUOTE |
| flaps taking energy |
Why not the alien is exerting energy to fly, and bite and shoot spines..
| QUOTE |
| People have different opinions about wether it's balanced or not. |
Well as long as one team is TOTALLY different then the other, people will always find something that in unbalanced.
| QUOTE |
| Then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about..... |
What is this a **obscenity** match? Why not stick so your thesis and everyone else can stop measuring their penii as well.. thats right I said penii !
Damn php gives errors but is still able to post it!
and just so this post is not a total waste.. some ideas will be read and cast aside, others might actually be used. thats the way things go ya know?
and just so this post is not a total waste.. some ideas will be read and cast aside, others might actually be used. thats the way things go ya know?
hrm...
he gave no points or me to argue so what am I supposed to say.
This would either be abusively useful or completely useless. Because what exactly are the limits on where a commander can build?(I'm not sure..) Can he hide buildings anywhere and slowly wait for them to build......This could have unpredictable results.
?? i don't understand what you're saying.
I mean, this makes the game less fun for many. It is irritating and reduces the skill of the game.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE Then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about..... What is this a **obscenity** match? Why not stick so your thesis and everyone else can stop measuring their penii as well.. thats right I said penii ! |
he gave no points or me to argue so what am I supposed to say.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE not allowing alien buildings to slowly auto build Allow the marine buildings to slowly build, through the use of nano building technology of course. |
This would either be abusively useful or completely useless. Because what exactly are the limits on where a commander can build?(I'm not sure..) Can he hide buildings anywhere and slowly wait for them to build......This could have unpredictable results.
| QUOTE |
| it is viable for the people who are better as Lerks, but to take all the massive plus a builder gets when a gets max rez is a bad thing. |
?? i don't understand what you're saying.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE The skulk bite model makes Jesus cry Only cause his children are being eaten. I like the not being able to see as you bite. It makes me feel like a shark (they cannot keep their eyes open when they bite, perhaps the aliens are the same way) -Disable the showing of any kills, including the aliens kills, team based game! |
I mean, this makes the game less fun for many. It is irritating and reduces the skill of the game.
| QUOTE |
| ?? i don't understand what you're saying. |
You don't understand the alien resource model then. Each tick, every RT creates resource points equal to (number of hives +1)*players on team. Each player then, gets 1 share of the resources in the pool, and gorges get 3 of these shares. If a player has his maximum resources, his share is doled out between the other players. If all players have full rps, the pool grows, so that when a player spends resources, he recovers them quickly.
When a skulk evolves to lerk, he must have had full rps, assuming only one hive is present. This causes the gorge(s) to receive less rps than they would have if the player had stayed as a skulk.
IN SUMMATION: With one hive present, a player who evolves to lerk greatly reduces the resource flow of the gorge(s) on his team.
Hope you found that helpful. I would contribute to the discussion, but seeing as I have not found an amiable clan, I have no experience in the matter.
~Berger
I knew that, and I thought thats what he was saying, but his sentence didn't make sense and I wanted to make sure thats what he meant before I commented on it......I'm still not sure thats exactly what he's saying.
?? that doesn't make sense
| QUOTE |
| but to take all the massive plus a builder gets |
?? that doesn't make sense
This one is just for Inexorable alone
thats not what i said at all......
I said marines were better several times........perhaps you didn't read my article at all? I mean, you gave some harsh criticism, or rather jumped behind all the PTs position, for not getting a main point of the article. Perhaps your reading comprehension needs work? Cause thats the opposite of what I was saying.
If you don't think experience matters then you must have some kind of brain defect. What do people hire for jobs based on? What is the # 1 credential for anything. Would you take a surgeon who is doing something for the first time ever, or a surgeon who's done the operation hundreds of times before. I mean, I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply to you, that was a really dense comment to make.
| QUOTE |
| He's right in that Kharaa are more powerful than Frontiersman right now. Between things like the Carapace bug, Fade's boosting in recent patches and the TF tweak, there's a lot of pressure on the marines to bring a lot of firepower everywhere at once. |
thats not what i said at all......
I said marines were better several times........perhaps you didn't read my article at all? I mean, you gave some harsh criticism, or rather jumped behind all the PTs position, for not getting a main point of the article. Perhaps your reading comprehension needs work? Cause thats the opposite of what I was saying.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE I have played over 25 scrims in NS. That is over 50 rounds of clan play. I played in the TAU/EC match that some of you might have watched(though I must say it doesn't truly reflect clanplay at all, and is already very dated.) So I have a good idea of what I'm talking about, at least when I talk about what is currently happening in scrims/the clan scene. Racing in the Indy 500 does not make you Jacques Villeneuve. This kind of credential means nothing. |
If you don't think experience matters then you must have some kind of brain defect. What do people hire for jobs based on? What is the # 1 credential for anything. Would you take a surgeon who is doing something for the first time ever, or a surgeon who's done the operation hundreds of times before. I mean, I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply to you, that was a really dense comment to make.
I love the playtesters....
<sYn> we found a completely unbalanced strat it should be fixed
<playtesters> no it's balanced you don't know what your talking about because we played longer
the bite model should be changed tho, I PERSONALY know two people that get sick from playing skulk with the bite model on.
<sYn> we found a completely unbalanced strat it should be fixed
<playtesters> no it's balanced you don't know what your talking about because we played longer
the bite model should be changed tho, I PERSONALY know two people that get sick from playing skulk with the bite model on.
| QUOTE |
| Then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about..... |
And you clearly don't care what we think. We could list a million arguments of why you're wrong and you're never going to be convinced otherwise.
What does that even refer to? I don't know what I'm talking about?
Are you suggesting: I'm not in a clan?
Yes, I am in a clan named VLP. I love to play Tournament and pub styles equally.
Are you suggesting: You haven't played enough?
I'm also speaking from experience on wether or not I think it's balanced. I've racked up a good amount of 'rounds' as well, although I haven't actually *counted* every one, I'm usually more interested in the game, although one stat site is listing that I've played a good 70+ hours.
Are you suggesting: That your post does not exactly match most of the typical whining that goes on in the general and suggestions forums? If you have a problem with the search function I'll gladly hutn down almost all of your ideas that have been made before.
So we've both have a good amount of playing time: Are you better than me? Is that why I don't know what I'm talking about? If so than does that mean the other people in here who are better than you can say you don't know what you're talking about?
You seem to be quite stuck on your opinions and I'm okay with that. None of us will ever convince you otherwise no matter how many accounts we bring up to you. Beause you've had a different experience than we have. If we bring up that we've had more experinces than you, or better skills, or worse skills, or less time: you'll use any or all of those points to bring up why our points aren't valid.
... Wow, that's quite the tangent right there. How many times did I go off track?
Anyway, I think I've made my point clear: I have no idea what I'm talking about and neither does anyone else
Iden:
You haven't even brought up any points, tho you have brought some credentials and it looks like you pub alot and don't scrim that much. I'm not even sure what you're saying. I've tried to rebut every argument brought so far, and you haven't brought any at all. I mean if you want to argue without points like this we might as well just scrim, and if syn beats you, then will you back down?
#webclan
irc.gamesnet.net
I think we're going to be able to play every weekday night coming up this week, as usual, but I'm not sure if thanksgiving will have some affect on this. We have our own server(thats quite fast) most of the time, but I'm sure we'll be able to find a server if its down. So feel free to stop by and challenge us.
You haven't even brought up any points, tho you have brought some credentials and it looks like you pub alot and don't scrim that much. I'm not even sure what you're saying. I've tried to rebut every argument brought so far, and you haven't brought any at all. I mean if you want to argue without points like this we might as well just scrim, and if syn beats you, then will you back down?
#webclan
irc.gamesnet.net
I think we're going to be able to play every weekday night coming up this week, as usual, but I'm not sure if thanksgiving will have some affect on this. We have our own server(thats quite fast) most of the time, but I'm sure we'll be able to find a server if its down. So feel free to stop by and challenge us.
EC/PTs, this post is purely for you:
I'm thinking you didn't read my article carefully? I make it clear throughout that marines > 1 hive aliens. Even if you took away the skulk model,
lmg marines > skulks (in groups) This is basicaly verbatim from my article. Also I think its funny that you're suggesting that I(and all of syn who agree btw) need more practice when I have more practice then you at skulking in matches, and ec won't even play us.
Again I think you didn't read carefully, I do mention that fade/lerk is ridiculous throughout the article. I think it is well known that fades are unbalanced right now tho so it wasn't a major focus, but it was mentioned several times.
I just think this is funny :
Do you not see that these "defensive" weapons are being subverted and used as offensive weapons?
But this is a future problem so I'm not that worried about it getting fixed immediately. Not like I am about the other parts.
How about you suck some more pts **obscenity** instead of giving some valid points. Oh wait, you've got me covered!
That's a ridiculous thing to say, I dunno what else to tell you. How about the pts play us with their super elite lerk forces and we see who wins?
and once again:
Again you guys bring up this insignificant part. Ok, I never said offensive tower right outside the enemy base. All the aliens have to do is spam all the hallways with towers and webs. Now the marines have to seige every hallway and move an inch at a time. Meanwhile the aliens have full map control and can constantly assault the marines, keeping most of them at base.
And I care about nothing insane said. Everything you talked about was under extra or future changes. I could defend these but they aren't even that important right now.
I can't really say you're wrong because your argument was so vague. It would be nice if you added more detail so that you're not just saying "I disagree, but how the economy is supposed to work is hidden from everyone(except of course the Great PTs) indefinitely"
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE -The skulk bite model makes Jesus cry(I know I didn't mention this but either league rules should be changed to be able to turn this off, or it should just be altered to not cover the whole screen. Not only is it annoying and headache inducing, but it makes being a skulk considerably harder. But: This will not balance the 2 races at the one hive stage! Do not fix this and think the problem is solved!) I would like to see model consistency enforced, along with r_drawviewmodel locked to 1. Skulks are not meant to be killers on four legs, they are meant to be scouts and last ditch defence. If you find it too hard to play as a skulk with the viewmodel on, you need more practice. |
I'm thinking you didn't read my article carefully? I make it clear throughout that marines > 1 hive aliens. Even if you took away the skulk model,
lmg marines > skulks (in groups) This is basicaly verbatim from my article. Also I think its funny that you're suggesting that I(and all of syn who agree btw) need more practice when I have more practice then you at skulking in matches, and ec won't even play us.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE Even if the marines are able to bring down one hive after the alien team is composed of fades and lerks the aliens will still have a 95% chance of winning. I have never seen aliens lose once they got fade/lerk going. From what I can see, Fades are a tad too strong at the moment. You do not seem to address this point, and instead moan about Alien turrets and webs, which are defensive in nature. The aliens are meant to be the defensive team. |
Again I think you didn't read carefully, I do mention that fade/lerk is ridiculous throughout the article. I think it is well known that fades are unbalanced right now tho so it wasn't a major focus, but it was mentioned several times.
I just think this is funny :
| QUOTE |
| You do not seem to address this point, and instead moan about Alien turrets and webs, which are defensive in nature. The aliens are meant to be the defensive team. |
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs. Sounds like a good tactic to me, rather than a bug. Marines have siege turrets. |
Do you not see that these "defensive" weapons are being subverted and used as offensive weapons?
But this is a future problem so I'm not that worried about it getting fixed immediately. Not like I am about the other parts.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE Basically the lerk should have no inertia in regards to changing direction during flight. This would make the lerk far more mobile, and much easier to use. Don't bash the Lerk just because you have problems using it please. QUOTE -A One Hive Lerk is not viable Tell that to eBnar, or Ekaj. A lerk is more than viable. |
How about you suck some more pts **obscenity** instead of giving some valid points. Oh wait, you've got me covered!
| QUOTE |
| Luckly, I have not yet seen Ekaj as a lerk. However I have seen Ebby and SmokeMasta as lerks and let me tell you, I dont care if you have an HMG/Lvl 3 upgrades, and HA - if you see ebby or smoke as a lerk drop everything you have and just try to run. You arn't going to live. |
That's a ridiculous thing to say, I dunno what else to tell you. How about the pts play us with their super elite lerk forces and we see who wins?
and once again:
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs. That actually, isn't one of the better ideas I could think of. If the marines are extremely RP deprived then yes, this would be helpful. But if they have/save up for 75 (1 TF, Upgrade to seige, and 1 seige) then this plan isn't so good. Those structres will be gone rather quickly - and the more structres you have the more damange one seige does (good ol' splash damage!) Generally, I would only set up 5 Def Chambers close to, not right up next to, the marine spawn when we are attacking. You have to make sure that they are out of the seiges range. |
Again you guys bring up this insignificant part. Ok, I never said offensive tower right outside the enemy base. All the aliens have to do is spam all the hallways with towers and webs. Now the marines have to seige every hallway and move an inch at a time. Meanwhile the aliens have full map control and can constantly assault the marines, keeping most of them at base.
And I care about nothing insane said. Everything you talked about was under extra or future changes. I could defend these but they aren't even that important right now.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE Basically the game has a very weak economic system right now, which could be altered to add a lot of depth to the game. The economic system is balanced. A lot of work went into balancing it not only for public play, but also for clan play. Until a few of the current bugs get fixed, this will not be visible. |
I can't really say you're wrong because your argument was so vague. It would be nice if you added more detail so that you're not just saying "I disagree, but how the economy is supposed to work is hidden from everyone(except of course the Great PTs) indefinitely"
i see your scrims against clans, your wins or your losses, your deficiencies of skill in different aspects of the game, or anything else really has made this that post a little mroe subjective as i would liek to see
i'd rather see ebnar not being able to fly the lerk in a certain area (which is absolutely impossible) then a claim that the lerk is worthless
etc etc etc everythign else is addressed here
i find many of your claims not to be thought through, it seems more like a post complaining that you lost because u couldn't kill a guy with this or that because of this or that
-TAU|TheOMeGa
i'd rather see ebnar not being able to fly the lerk in a certain area (which is absolutely impossible) then a claim that the lerk is worthless
etc etc etc everythign else is addressed here
i find many of your claims not to be thought through, it seems more like a post complaining that you lost because u couldn't kill a guy with this or that because of this or that
-TAU|TheOMeGa
Sometimes everything just comes together all at once and everything makes sense. All these ec/pt people have been attacking what I've been saying, and I couldn't understand where they were coming from at all, and then even omega from tau jumped in. But then I had a very clairvoyant conversation with bozman and omega in #evolutionarily so here it is:
[22:08] <BoZmAn20> How long are your scrims?
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> it just ends up acceptable
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> well
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> marine side
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> >5 min
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> aline side could maybe take 20ish?
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> alien
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> this is average of course
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> Heh
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> how log does it take to get 2 hives
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> get fade/lerk going
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> Our match against EGC was verging on one and a half hours
[22:09] <kharaa_0z> it was good though
[22:09] <kharaa_0z> much fun
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> Yeah
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> ....
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> I like long matches
[22:10] * kharaa_0z grumbles "siege bug"
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> 0z?
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> u got a demo?
[22:10] <kharaa_0z> my view?
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> i'd like to cehck that out tomorrow
[22:10] <BoZmAn20> We got the siege bug too, 0z.
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> long matches like that seem unrealistic
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> unrealistic?
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> i dunno what else to say
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> ROFL
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> im not sure how that would happen
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> omega, http://www.vu.union.edu/~torresj/files/dem...mos/ECvsEGC.zip
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> unless there was alot of slow seiging going on
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> thx man
[22:11] <BoZmAn20> Uhh, it happens because both teams can fend off a rush.
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> thats iggies demo
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> he missed a big point though
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> bleh
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> oh well
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> i need to get ebby's demo
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> the best part of egc marines match
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> alien demo
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> was when insane killed half of his team in their major skulk rush
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> im thinking perhaps people didn't rush correctly....
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> well
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> i'll watch it before i say anthing
[22:12] <BoZmAn20> Heh
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> boz
[22:12] <BoZmAn20> None of us rushed, Eats.
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> i watched the demo
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> who won which sides?
[22:12] <UGL|Andrew-NS> the demo was nice
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> who won which sides?
[22:12] * UGL|Andrew-NS liked it
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> and i died when i saw those 5? each my base
[22:12] <BoZmAn20> Alien victories
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> lol
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> well duh
[22:12] <TAU|TheOMeGa> if TAU rushes its cuz we went ot hive to take it and it was the alien's hive
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> each rush my base
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> and no one was around
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> then insane killed 1/2
[22:12] <TAU|TheOMeGa> rofl
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> then my team phased in
[22:13] <kharaa_0z> and saved teh day
[22:13] <TAU|TheOMeGa> ebby's lekr is teh pwn
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> jesus christ
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> ok
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> well, whatever
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> ec, play us sometime
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> this week?
[22:13] <kharaa_0z> talk to cy/fam/mart
[22:13] <BoZmAn20> We don't do weekday scrims/matches
[22:13] * pac|cs has joined #Evolutionarily
[22:13] * ChanServ sets mode: +v pac|cs
[22:14] <sYn|Eats> ok
[22:14] <BoZmAn20> We also don't tend to like games that boil down to how well the marines can rush
[22:14] <sYn|Eats> i don't understand what makes you gusy think you're so much more amazingly bvetter at fending off rushes when you play so little, i mean, i'll watch this demo
[22:14] <sYn|Eats> but what you're saying isn't making sense unless we aren't playing the same game
[22:15] <BoZmAn20> We're not
[22:15] <TAU|TheOMeGa> who said they were?
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> well then you aren't playing to win
[22:15] <BoZmAn20> No, we're not.
[22:15] <BoZmAn20> We're playing to have fun.
[22:15] <TAU|TheOMeGa> the essence of ns
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> so you expect to bomb out of the leagues?
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> cause i mean
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> the clans playing to win will beat you
[22:15] * pac|cs is now known as [FoR]PacMan
[22:15] <TAU|TheOMeGa> leagues are unimportant
[22:15] * clik` has joined #Evolutionarily
[22:16] <BoZmAn20> Whats your point? Why do you think all our matches are against clans like TAU, TE, IFB, EGC?
[22:16] <TAU|TheOMeGa> <3
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> i have no idea
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> ....
[22:16] * clik` is now known as Derfud
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> ok
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> well if this is true
[22:16] <BoZmAn20> Because they're fun community clans, not CAL teams that want to win in the ladders.
[22:17] <sYn|Eats> when i suggest things to balance the game for us playing to win, could ec not take a dump on the sugestions
[22:17] <Derfud> my gerbil's breath smell's like gerbil food
[22:17] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:17] <sYn|Eats> i get them from experience
[22:17] <BoZmAn20> So do we
[22:17] <BoZmAn20> Our experiences are just different.
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> but you aren't suggesting things to balance the game!
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> because you aren't playing to win
[22:18] <TAU|TheOMeGa> the game is balanced
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> how the hell would you even know if you never play it competitively?
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> if thats the claim
[22:19] <sYn|Eats> ?
[22:19] <BoZmAn20> I dont really even know what you're trying to argue with me about
[22:20] <TAU|TheOMeGa> rofl
[22:20] <sYn|Eats> its fine
[22:20] <TAU|TheOMeGa> eats ur creating an argument when one was never prompted
[22:20] <sYn|Eats> this will be enough
[22:23] <BoZmAn20> Anyway, yeah, EC were never meant to be a competitive clan. Hell, when we formed, we never even THOUGHT about NS being a clan game, none of us had even played it. We've never picked members based on skill, we're just a bunch of guys that like to play games together, like to have fun with eachother. The competitive thing just came along with being the "First NS clan"
I mean, that totally makes sense. If you're not playing to win then you're not even coming from the same place as us. We at sYn are playing to win matches. We use the best strategy available to us and try to win with it. I'm sure my article didn't look subjective because of course it wasn't. I've played over 50 rounds of competitive scrims and I was writing what i've been seeing, why I think its working, and have tried to point out the problems so they can be resolved.
Though when I was in TAU I must say I never got the idea we were playing for anything but victory, but I digress.
So, in conclusion, please don't attack my article if you're not coming from the same place as I am. I posted this to talk about balancing the game for clans that are playing as hard as they can, and the game isn't balanced in this regard.
[22:08] <BoZmAn20> How long are your scrims?
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> it just ends up acceptable
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> well
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> marine side
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> >5 min
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> aline side could maybe take 20ish?
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> alien
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> this is average of course
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> Heh
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> how log does it take to get 2 hives
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> get fade/lerk going
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> Our match against EGC was verging on one and a half hours
[22:09] <kharaa_0z> it was good though
[22:09] <kharaa_0z> much fun
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> Yeah
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> ....
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> I like long matches
[22:10] * kharaa_0z grumbles "siege bug"
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> 0z?
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> u got a demo?
[22:10] <kharaa_0z> my view?
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> i'd like to cehck that out tomorrow
[22:10] <BoZmAn20> We got the siege bug too, 0z.
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> long matches like that seem unrealistic
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> unrealistic?
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> i dunno what else to say
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> ROFL
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> im not sure how that would happen
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> omega, http://www.vu.union.edu/~torresj/files/dem...mos/ECvsEGC.zip
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> unless there was alot of slow seiging going on
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> thx man
[22:11] <BoZmAn20> Uhh, it happens because both teams can fend off a rush.
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> thats iggies demo
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> he missed a big point though
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> bleh
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> oh well
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> i need to get ebby's demo
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> the best part of egc marines match
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> alien demo
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> was when insane killed half of his team in their major skulk rush
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> im thinking perhaps people didn't rush correctly....
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> well
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> i'll watch it before i say anthing
[22:12] <BoZmAn20> Heh
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> boz
[22:12] <BoZmAn20> None of us rushed, Eats.
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> i watched the demo
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> who won which sides?
[22:12] <UGL|Andrew-NS> the demo was nice
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> who won which sides?
[22:12] * UGL|Andrew-NS liked it
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> and i died when i saw those 5? each my base
[22:12] <BoZmAn20> Alien victories
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> lol
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> well duh
[22:12] <TAU|TheOMeGa> if TAU rushes its cuz we went ot hive to take it and it was the alien's hive
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> each rush my base
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> and no one was around
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> then insane killed 1/2
[22:12] <TAU|TheOMeGa> rofl
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> then my team phased in
[22:13] <kharaa_0z> and saved teh day
[22:13] <TAU|TheOMeGa> ebby's lekr is teh pwn
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> jesus christ
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> ok
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> well, whatever
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> ec, play us sometime
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> this week?
[22:13] <kharaa_0z> talk to cy/fam/mart
[22:13] <BoZmAn20> We don't do weekday scrims/matches
[22:13] * pac|cs has joined #Evolutionarily
[22:13] * ChanServ sets mode: +v pac|cs
[22:14] <sYn|Eats> ok
[22:14] <BoZmAn20> We also don't tend to like games that boil down to how well the marines can rush
[22:14] <sYn|Eats> i don't understand what makes you gusy think you're so much more amazingly bvetter at fending off rushes when you play so little, i mean, i'll watch this demo
[22:14] <sYn|Eats> but what you're saying isn't making sense unless we aren't playing the same game
[22:15] <BoZmAn20> We're not
[22:15] <TAU|TheOMeGa> who said they were?
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> well then you aren't playing to win
[22:15] <BoZmAn20> No, we're not.
[22:15] <BoZmAn20> We're playing to have fun.
[22:15] <TAU|TheOMeGa> the essence of ns
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> so you expect to bomb out of the leagues?
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> cause i mean
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> the clans playing to win will beat you
[22:15] * pac|cs is now known as [FoR]PacMan
[22:15] <TAU|TheOMeGa> leagues are unimportant
[22:15] * clik` has joined #Evolutionarily
[22:16] <BoZmAn20> Whats your point? Why do you think all our matches are against clans like TAU, TE, IFB, EGC?
[22:16] <TAU|TheOMeGa> <3
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> i have no idea
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> ....
[22:16] * clik` is now known as Derfud
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> ok
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> well if this is true
[22:16] <BoZmAn20> Because they're fun community clans, not CAL teams that want to win in the ladders.
[22:17] <sYn|Eats> when i suggest things to balance the game for us playing to win, could ec not take a dump on the sugestions
[22:17] <Derfud> my gerbil's breath smell's like gerbil food
[22:17] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:17] <sYn|Eats> i get them from experience
[22:17] <BoZmAn20> So do we
[22:17] <BoZmAn20> Our experiences are just different.
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> but you aren't suggesting things to balance the game!
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> because you aren't playing to win
[22:18] <TAU|TheOMeGa> the game is balanced
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> how the hell would you even know if you never play it competitively?
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> if thats the claim
[22:19] <sYn|Eats> ?
[22:19] <BoZmAn20> I dont really even know what you're trying to argue with me about
[22:20] <TAU|TheOMeGa> rofl
[22:20] <sYn|Eats> its fine
[22:20] <TAU|TheOMeGa> eats ur creating an argument when one was never prompted
[22:20] <sYn|Eats> this will be enough
[22:23] <BoZmAn20> Anyway, yeah, EC were never meant to be a competitive clan. Hell, when we formed, we never even THOUGHT about NS being a clan game, none of us had even played it. We've never picked members based on skill, we're just a bunch of guys that like to play games together, like to have fun with eachother. The competitive thing just came along with being the "First NS clan"
I mean, that totally makes sense. If you're not playing to win then you're not even coming from the same place as us. We at sYn are playing to win matches. We use the best strategy available to us and try to win with it. I'm sure my article didn't look subjective because of course it wasn't. I've played over 50 rounds of competitive scrims and I was writing what i've been seeing, why I think its working, and have tried to point out the problems so they can be resolved.
Though when I was in TAU I must say I never got the idea we were playing for anything but victory, but I digress.
So, in conclusion, please don't attack my article if you're not coming from the same place as I am. I posted this to talk about balancing the game for clans that are playing as hard as they can, and the game isn't balanced in this regard.
Interesting, Eats. Interesting.
First off, I'm me. That's good enough for me, and if you're actually interested in feedback and idea exchange, then it'll be good enough for you as well. Wether I've played one match or five hundred quickly becomes irrelevant, given the quality of my speech. I've seen the most experienced players spout utter garbage, and I've seen complete and total newbies speak a few words that completely changed the course of a game's development.
Now on to the real topic, however. Eats, as I read your article, one thing kept coming out over and over to me. You basically want it to be Marines in Frontiersmen skins versus Marines in Alien skins. The game, however, is not. The game is Aliens against Marines.
After reading this and numerous other threads, I realize that most people do not truly comprehend the depth of that difference. Alien. As in totally different. As in completely different mindset. Do you really have the mindset it takes to be an effective alien? Or is your idea of playing aliens to just kinda peek around corners and throw acid rockets at the marines? Something that I don't think is really emphasized enough is this: The aliens are not marines in a different skin. You don't play 'em the same way. You can't play them the same way.
After reading your article, I found quite a few things that I feel need to be addressed:
Why do the marines even know the skulk is there? Either the skulk failed in being sneaky, or the skulk was trying to play like a marine. If you play the skulk right, your enemy will know you're somewhere around, but they won't be able to do anything about it. Every time - every time I've died as a skulk, it was because I was careless and let the marines know my precise location.
Sorry for the comparison, NS team, but this ain't a first-person-shooter version of Starcraft, Eats. Take that idea straight out of your head. Yes, resources are part of it. Tech is part of it. But an HMG-wielding Jetpacked level-3 armor/weapon marine is gonna die if he doesn't see a good player's skulk. And that's the way it should be, IMHO.
No offense, but if that's the way you feel about the lerk, you have no idea what you're talking about. A good lerk will almost never die. Why? Because the marines won't have the slightest idea where he even is. A good lerk will spine you a few times, then come out of nowhere and bite your eff-ing head off. I won't even pretend it's easy to learn the lerk. It isn't. I'm nowhere near good enough with it. But I like to think I understand the lerk. In some ways, he's very similar to the skulk, and I have to again ask why the marines even knew where the lerk was.
Excuse me? So you're saying the cost of the fade, lerk, gorge, or other creature is completely irrelevant? As far as I'm concerned, knowing that no matter what I do with my lmg, the alien won't @#($*ing die is pretty disconcerting.
I thought about this for a while, and I have to respectfully disagree. While logically it makes perfect sense, think about it this way: What happens when a lerk umbra's the doorway and you've got 6 aliens with ranged weapons? That gives the aliens far too much power, I think.
Again, I disagree. That's what regen and the gorges are for.
The mines don't detonate instantly. It takes a moment for them to go off. Delayed proximity, my dear Watson. I don't know how many proximity mines I've set off without dying, but it should suffice to say that I've never died to a proximity mine while in gameplay. (Doing stupid experiments, yes. But not in a game.) They're an annoyance, and if you're not careful, they'll get you.
First off, you can't build unlimited towers in one location. Secondly, see the godsend called a welder. See the welder burn organic alien towers like there's no tomorrow. Two marines (one attacking the towers, one welding the first marine's armor) can tear out towers like they're not even there. It's a nuisance more than anything.
Actually, I'd say in tournament mode don't show ANY score, just show who on your team is still alive (and even that I have some questions on). The final matter is really which team kills the other off. All else is irrelevant.
Did I hear you right? Replace hive sight? Are you out of your mind? That, in and of itself, is quite possibly the most awesome thing about playing Aliens. It's almost as bad as people whining about the skulk's bite model. It doesn't impair me any, but it does take a little bit to get used to. Personally, I'd rather have the background noises removed from the maps, because I can't play NS for more than a couple hours without getting a massive headache from the sound. But I'm also perfectly content with the noises staying in, because it significantly adds to the game. When you're straining to hear footsteps over the ship's creaking... That's just cool.
I guess in short, I have to almost completely disagree with you, Eats. As I see it, the changes you're suggesting would make this little more than marine-vs-marine combat with different skins. And that game, I believe, would be repulsive.
The most revealing thing, however, was this short tidbit from the about section of the shambler.net website: "Shambler.net is a games site, focusing on strategy games, and in particular, Blizzard games. We host game reviews, commentary on games in general, and Warcraft 3 strategy articles."
In light of this, your suggestions make very good sense. But as I said before, this isn't just some wierd FPS version of Starcraft or Warcraft. This is Natural Selection, and I (along with many others, I'm sure) would appreciate it if people would quit trying to make it into one of those games.
[edited: Fixed a few typographical errors. Whoops.]
First off, I'm me. That's good enough for me, and if you're actually interested in feedback and idea exchange, then it'll be good enough for you as well. Wether I've played one match or five hundred quickly becomes irrelevant, given the quality of my speech. I've seen the most experienced players spout utter garbage, and I've seen complete and total newbies speak a few words that completely changed the course of a game's development.
Now on to the real topic, however. Eats, as I read your article, one thing kept coming out over and over to me. You basically want it to be Marines in Frontiersmen skins versus Marines in Alien skins. The game, however, is not. The game is Aliens against Marines.
After reading this and numerous other threads, I realize that most people do not truly comprehend the depth of that difference. Alien. As in totally different. As in completely different mindset. Do you really have the mindset it takes to be an effective alien? Or is your idea of playing aliens to just kinda peek around corners and throw acid rockets at the marines? Something that I don't think is really emphasized enough is this: The aliens are not marines in a different skin. You don't play 'em the same way. You can't play them the same way.
After reading your article, I found quite a few things that I feel need to be addressed:
| QUOTE |
| multiple marines in the same room create cross fires and are able to focus fire on one skulk. |
Why do the marines even know the skulk is there? Either the skulk failed in being sneaky, or the skulk was trying to play like a marine. If you play the skulk right, your enemy will know you're somewhere around, but they won't be able to do anything about it. Every time - every time I've died as a skulk, it was because I was careless and let the marines know my precise location.
| QUOTE |
| the dynamics of the game could be made to focus on resource and tech domination. Where both the marine and alien forces fight for control of resources, and one side eventually overwhelms the other |
Sorry for the comparison, NS team, but this ain't a first-person-shooter version of Starcraft, Eats. Take that idea straight out of your head. Yes, resources are part of it. Tech is part of it. But an HMG-wielding Jetpacked level-3 armor/weapon marine is gonna die if he doesn't see a good player's skulk. And that's the way it should be, IMHO.
| QUOTE |
| A major reason for this is that the lerk is very expensive, and wouldn't even be viable for very cheap with his one-hive abilities. Another issue is his flight. {snip} The only truly useful abilities for the lerk right now are flying, umbra and poison cloud. |
No offense, but if that's the way you feel about the lerk, you have no idea what you're talking about. A good lerk will almost never die. Why? Because the marines won't have the slightest idea where he even is. A good lerk will spine you a few times, then come out of nowhere and bite your eff-ing head off. I won't even pretend it's easy to learn the lerk. It isn't. I'm nowhere near good enough with it. But I like to think I understand the lerk. In some ways, he's very similar to the skulk, and I have to again ask why the marines even knew where the lerk was.
| QUOTE |
| Redemption is just not useful at all |
Excuse me? So you're saying the cost of the fade, lerk, gorge, or other creature is completely irrelevant? As far as I'm concerned, knowing that no matter what I do with my lmg, the alien won't @#($*ing die is pretty disconcerting.
| QUOTE |
| If standing behind an umbra cloud that a marine is shooting through doesn't give umbra benefits, it needs to. |
I thought about this for a while, and I have to respectfully disagree. While logically it makes perfect sense, think about it this way: What happens when a lerk umbra's the doorway and you've got 6 aliens with ranged weapons? That gives the aliens far too much power, I think.
| QUOTE |
| Alien ability where standing on an unclaimed resource nozzle heals alien health and armor, and when the alien is at full health, this slightly improves his resource flow. |
Again, I disagree. That's what regen and the gorges are for.
| QUOTE |
| -Mining Resource Points is a potential future Abuse. {snip}one-hive-aliens lack a way to detonate these mines without damaging themselves severely, if not dying |
The mines don't detonate instantly. It takes a moment for them to go off. Delayed proximity, my dear Watson. I don't know how many proximity mines I've set off without dying, but it should suffice to say that I've never died to a proximity mine while in gameplay. (Doing stupid experiments, yes. But not in a game.) They're an annoyance, and if you're not careful, they'll get you.
| QUOTE |
| -Web and Tower Spam will soon become unbalanced |
First off, you can't build unlimited towers in one location. Secondly, see the godsend called a welder. See the welder burn organic alien towers like there's no tomorrow. Two marines (one attacking the towers, one welding the first marine's armor) can tear out towers like they're not even there. It's a nuisance more than anything.
| QUOTE |
| -In tournament mode show marine kills(why not? I can assure you clans are not going to play for who can get the most kills) |
Actually, I'd say in tournament mode don't show ANY score, just show who on your team is still alive (and even that I have some questions on). The final matter is really which team kills the other off. All else is irrelevant.
| QUOTE |
| -Replace Hive Sight with an ability that would be called confusion, or something similar. This ability would make turrets miss, at level 3, 50% more often(maybe more, it would need testing.) This may actually need to do more. It'd probably be underpowered as is. |
Did I hear you right? Replace hive sight? Are you out of your mind? That, in and of itself, is quite possibly the most awesome thing about playing Aliens. It's almost as bad as people whining about the skulk's bite model. It doesn't impair me any, but it does take a little bit to get used to. Personally, I'd rather have the background noises removed from the maps, because I can't play NS for more than a couple hours without getting a massive headache from the sound. But I'm also perfectly content with the noises staying in, because it significantly adds to the game. When you're straining to hear footsteps over the ship's creaking... That's just cool.
I guess in short, I have to almost completely disagree with you, Eats. As I see it, the changes you're suggesting would make this little more than marine-vs-marine combat with different skins. And that game, I believe, would be repulsive.
The most revealing thing, however, was this short tidbit from the about section of the shambler.net website: "Shambler.net is a games site, focusing on strategy games, and in particular, Blizzard games. We host game reviews, commentary on games in general, and Warcraft 3 strategy articles."
In light of this, your suggestions make very good sense. But as I said before, this isn't just some wierd FPS version of Starcraft or Warcraft. This is Natural Selection, and I (along with many others, I'm sure) would appreciate it if people would quit trying to make it into one of those games.
[edited: Fixed a few typographical errors. Whoops.]
hmm, ok.
"multiple marines in the same room create cross fires and are able to focus fire on one skulk.[/quote]Why do the marines even know the skulk is there? Either the skulk failed in being sneaky, or the skulk was trying to play like a marine. If you play the skulk right, your enemy will know you're somewhere around, but they won't be able to do anything about it."
hah, in a pub this is true and I would agree with you. But in a match of ns it isn't for one reason, scanner sweeps. This is available basically at the start of the game, before the marines even leave base, and only costs 1 rp(maybe 2? i think 1) per use. Now, from reading what it does in the instructions you would think this would be next to useless. But what most people don't realize is that if you place a scanner sweep on a group of marines, you see every alien in the vicinity with no delay time. This means those clever aliens hiding around the corner are revealed to the cmder, who can instantly relay this information to the marine force. Basically unless this alien runs and fast, he is going to die.
When 3-4 marines begin a rush on the alien hive with sweeps laid on them constantly the aliens are in serious trouble.
"No offense, but if that's the way you feel about the lerk, you have no idea what you're talking about. A good lerk will almost never die. Why? Because the marines won't have the slightest idea where he even is. A good lerk will spine you a few times, then come out of nowhere and bite your eff-ing head off. I won't even pretend it's easy to learn the lerk. It isn't. I'm nowhere near good enough with it. But I like to think I understand the lerk."
The lerk is ridiculously expensive, and perhaps only slightly better then a skulk(if at all) at one hive. For the steep price you're paying the lerk is not at all worth it at one hive and if you start playing in alot of matches you will see this. Also scanner sweep negates all that stealth nonsense you were talking about.
"Redemption is just not useful at all[/quote] Excuse me? So you're saying the cost of the fade, lerk, gorge, or other creature is completely irrelevant? As far as I'm concerned, knowing that no matter what I do with my lmg, the alien won't @#($*ing die is pretty disconcerting."
Well, I suppose you could argue that because carapace is unbalanced right now so you don't see redempton getting any play, but I don't think thats even true. Players like having control of when they flee and when they don't, and most alien classes don't even need this ability, since they are able to move fast enough to flee from nearly any situation anyway. But forget all that, just know this:
Right now redemption is seeing very little if any play in competitive matches, and i would be very surprised to see it get any play when carapace is balanced. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.
"If standing behind an umbra cloud that a marine is shooting through doesn't give umbra benefits, it needs to.[/quote]I thought about this for a while, and I have to respectfully disagree. While logically it makes perfect sense, think about it this way: What happens when a lerk umbra's the doorway and you've got 6 aliens with ranged weapons? That gives the aliens far too much power, I think."
That is the entire alien force with tech you realize. That is all the aliens on the team, meaning they have no gorge. That should be very powerful.
[quote]-In tournament mode show marine kills(why not? I can assure you clans are not going to play for who can get the most kills)[/quote]Actually, I'd say in tournament mode don't show ANY score, just show who on your team is still alive (and even that I have some questions on). The final matter is really which team kills the other off. All else is irrelevant.
This is only meant for fun. It doesn't matter whether they show scores or not but it would make the game more fun. Like in bond how it told you you're specialties at the end of the round. It wouldn't affect anything for any clan that is playing to win. CS used to do this hide the scores nonsense too, but it was more fun seeing the scores so it was changed.
[/quote]-Replace Hive Sight with an ability that would be called confusion, or something similar. This ability would make turrets miss, at level 3, 50% more often(maybe more, it would need testing.) This may actually need to do more. It'd probably be underpowered as is.[/quote]Did I hear you right? Replace hive sight? Are you out of your mind? That, in and of itself, is quite possibly the most awesome thing about playing Aliens.
This is just a very newbie thing to say. I mean, turn up your gamma, this skill is useless and will never, ever see any play in a competitive environment.
"multiple marines in the same room create cross fires and are able to focus fire on one skulk.[/quote]Why do the marines even know the skulk is there? Either the skulk failed in being sneaky, or the skulk was trying to play like a marine. If you play the skulk right, your enemy will know you're somewhere around, but they won't be able to do anything about it."
hah, in a pub this is true and I would agree with you. But in a match of ns it isn't for one reason, scanner sweeps. This is available basically at the start of the game, before the marines even leave base, and only costs 1 rp(maybe 2? i think 1) per use. Now, from reading what it does in the instructions you would think this would be next to useless. But what most people don't realize is that if you place a scanner sweep on a group of marines, you see every alien in the vicinity with no delay time. This means those clever aliens hiding around the corner are revealed to the cmder, who can instantly relay this information to the marine force. Basically unless this alien runs and fast, he is going to die.
When 3-4 marines begin a rush on the alien hive with sweeps laid on them constantly the aliens are in serious trouble.
"No offense, but if that's the way you feel about the lerk, you have no idea what you're talking about. A good lerk will almost never die. Why? Because the marines won't have the slightest idea where he even is. A good lerk will spine you a few times, then come out of nowhere and bite your eff-ing head off. I won't even pretend it's easy to learn the lerk. It isn't. I'm nowhere near good enough with it. But I like to think I understand the lerk."
The lerk is ridiculously expensive, and perhaps only slightly better then a skulk(if at all) at one hive. For the steep price you're paying the lerk is not at all worth it at one hive and if you start playing in alot of matches you will see this. Also scanner sweep negates all that stealth nonsense you were talking about.
"Redemption is just not useful at all[/quote] Excuse me? So you're saying the cost of the fade, lerk, gorge, or other creature is completely irrelevant? As far as I'm concerned, knowing that no matter what I do with my lmg, the alien won't @#($*ing die is pretty disconcerting."
Well, I suppose you could argue that because carapace is unbalanced right now so you don't see redempton getting any play, but I don't think thats even true. Players like having control of when they flee and when they don't, and most alien classes don't even need this ability, since they are able to move fast enough to flee from nearly any situation anyway. But forget all that, just know this:
Right now redemption is seeing very little if any play in competitive matches, and i would be very surprised to see it get any play when carapace is balanced. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.
"If standing behind an umbra cloud that a marine is shooting through doesn't give umbra benefits, it needs to.[/quote]I thought about this for a while, and I have to respectfully disagree. While logically it makes perfect sense, think about it this way: What happens when a lerk umbra's the doorway and you've got 6 aliens with ranged weapons? That gives the aliens far too much power, I think."
That is the entire alien force with tech you realize. That is all the aliens on the team, meaning they have no gorge. That should be very powerful.
[quote]-In tournament mode show marine kills(why not? I can assure you clans are not going to play for who can get the most kills)[/quote]Actually, I'd say in tournament mode don't show ANY score, just show who on your team is still alive (and even that I have some questions on). The final matter is really which team kills the other off. All else is irrelevant.
This is only meant for fun. It doesn't matter whether they show scores or not but it would make the game more fun. Like in bond how it told you you're specialties at the end of the round. It wouldn't affect anything for any clan that is playing to win. CS used to do this hide the scores nonsense too, but it was more fun seeing the scores so it was changed.
[/quote]-Replace Hive Sight with an ability that would be called confusion, or something similar. This ability would make turrets miss, at level 3, 50% more often(maybe more, it would need testing.) This may actually need to do more. It'd probably be underpowered as is.[/quote]Did I hear you right? Replace hive sight? Are you out of your mind? That, in and of itself, is quite possibly the most awesome thing about playing Aliens.
This is just a very newbie thing to say. I mean, turn up your gamma, this skill is useless and will never, ever see any play in a competitive environment.
First off, I'm rather offended that you seem to think so much of your knowledge and so little of mine. You posted the article and asked for feedback, not me. Calling me a newbie and implying that I'm an itiot who doesn't know what I'm talking about is not appreciated. I'd appreciate it if you kept to the discussion at hand, sir. Thank you.
No, actually, I beg to differ. Just because the commander tells you that there's an alien around doesn't mean you will be able to do anything about it. You'll just know that there's an alien around, but that'll be old news, because I'll be laughing at you.
If 5 perfectly good skulks can't take out 3-4 entry-level marines, they deserve to lose. Would you not agree?
I see no evidence to back this claim up. You yourself gave the evidence that clearly demonstrates that you don't know how to use the lerk, so I feel no need to discuss this further. I'd be glad to talk about this at a future point when you are more proficient in its use.
So in your opinion, having not used redemption extensively, you believe it is useless. Personally, I almost always use it as a gorge. And almost always use it if I actually manage to get an Onos. Shoot me and I disappear to safety. And then I come back, restored, and you're still recovering from the last attack. Redemption is far from useless, sir.
Very well, make it 5 aliens. Again, I say, making umbra stop all damage rays that penetrate it is simply too powerful. Multiple aliens bombarding a location with no way to return fire short of grenades? Perhaps you could compare this to multiple siege cannons behind a wall, but I still believe it's too powerful.
Quite frankly, either you win or you don't. Your team wins or it doesn't. I've seen perfectly well what happens when you include individual scores, and it has been documented countless times. The fact is that insertion of individual scores leads to less teamwork, even in the most serious of clans.
I honestly don't even know how to respond to this. You're telling me that if you hear "Structure is under attack," you don't bother to spin around and see where the attack is? That if a teammate yells "I need help!" and is subsequently distracted by fighting for their lives, you'll wait for them to get free, just so they can remove the distress of actually having to look for the red circle with their name on it? In all honesty, the only way I see this not being used is if people cheat and turn the view models off. Hive sight is incredibly useful, sir. I don't understand how you can say this.
| QUOTE |
| But in a match of ns it isn't for one reason, scanner sweeps. |
No, actually, I beg to differ. Just because the commander tells you that there's an alien around doesn't mean you will be able to do anything about it. You'll just know that there's an alien around, but that'll be old news, because I'll be laughing at you.
| QUOTE |
| When 3-4 marines begin a rush on the alien hive with sweeps laid on them constantly the aliens are in serious trouble. |
If 5 perfectly good skulks can't take out 3-4 entry-level marines, they deserve to lose. Would you not agree?
| QUOTE |
| The lerk is ridiculously expensive, and perhaps only slightly better then a skulk(if at all) at one hive. For the steep price you're paying the lerk is not at all worth it at one hive. |
I see no evidence to back this claim up. You yourself gave the evidence that clearly demonstrates that you don't know how to use the lerk, so I feel no need to discuss this further. I'd be glad to talk about this at a future point when you are more proficient in its use.
| QUOTE |
| Right now redemption is seeing very little if any play in competitive matches, and i would be very surprised to see it get any play when carapace is balanced. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that. |
So in your opinion, having not used redemption extensively, you believe it is useless. Personally, I almost always use it as a gorge. And almost always use it if I actually manage to get an Onos. Shoot me and I disappear to safety. And then I come back, restored, and you're still recovering from the last attack. Redemption is far from useless, sir.
| QUOTE |
| That is the entire alien force with tech you realize. That is all the aliens on the team, meaning they have no gorge. That should be very powerful. |
Very well, make it 5 aliens. Again, I say, making umbra stop all damage rays that penetrate it is simply too powerful. Multiple aliens bombarding a location with no way to return fire short of grenades? Perhaps you could compare this to multiple siege cannons behind a wall, but I still believe it's too powerful.
| QUOTE |
| It doesn't matter whether they show scores or not but it would make the game more fun. Like in bond how it told you you're specialties at the end of the round. It wouldn't affect anything for any clan that is playing to win. |
Quite frankly, either you win or you don't. Your team wins or it doesn't. I've seen perfectly well what happens when you include individual scores, and it has been documented countless times. The fact is that insertion of individual scores leads to less teamwork, even in the most serious of clans.
| QUOTE |
| I mean, turn up your gamma, this skill {hive sight} is useless and will never, ever see any play in a competitive environment. |
I honestly don't even know how to respond to this. You're telling me that if you hear "Structure is under attack," you don't bother to spin around and see where the attack is? That if a teammate yells "I need help!" and is subsequently distracted by fighting for their lives, you'll wait for them to get free, just so they can remove the distress of actually having to look for the red circle with their name on it? In all honesty, the only way I see this not being used is if people cheat and turn the view models off. Hive sight is incredibly useful, sir. I don't understand how you can say this.
Waitwaitwait..... you're this Shambler guy? Well, that makes this a whole different deal. Here I thought I was arguing in proxy with just some guy who liked Shambler's ideas.
Alrightythen, let's break it down:
As I said before, the first 4 paragraphs are good. The whats, hows and general whys all look good.
A minor nitpick is that you don't seem terribly impressed with the alien objectives in the early game, the tactic of 'rushing to delay'. But that's the whole point. With one hive, the aliens have a horrible time trying to crack marine defences so your whole goal is to give your Gorge enough time to get a second hive started. That's the way the game is played, and I'm betting it was designed that way.
It's when you get into "Deeper Problems" that trouble starts.
The armor bug is exactly that, a bug which shouldn't exist and unbalances things. How do I know it's unbalancing? Your IRC log. Unlike most pub players and clans the PTs weren't playing to win, they were playing for fun. I can't prove it, but I bet the whole reason the bug wasn't found till now was that people were choosing other upgrades a lot. When somebody did choose Carapace, he lived longer sure, but he was supposed to so nobody thought much of it. The game was balanced without considering the effects of an entire alien team sporting Carapace.
Either way, doubling your effective HP for a 2 RP investment is nuts.
Nobody really tries to defend resource nodes if they know what they're doing. The marines don't need 15 nodes to get a decent income, they only need 3-4. As long as your marines aren't dying left and right that will be enough to keep them equipped and have the upgrades coming in.
-As for massing the marines, that's a required component of play. Sure, you might have enough organization in your clan with everybody having a mic and following orders that your Comm's head wouldn't explode having a single marine in every room of the map. And maybe you're such ninja masters that you can go toe-to-toe with Fade in only light armor weilding an LMG, but this also has to be balanced for pub play where the only feasible way for marines to move is in as big a group as possible.
-Arguing the benefits of 1 Hive Lerks is a little pointless. I really don't think you're ever supposed to see them. In all the games I've played, a decent alien team will have a 2nd hive up shortly after the Skulks hit 33 RP. So at the point anybody could even get to Lerks, they're automatically 2 Hive. Even at 1 Hive though, they're indispensable when trying to take out turret farms due to their long range.
-On the sensory upgrades though, you're basically right. Redemption and Regeneration though I think are going to see dramatic increases in use once Carapace gets fixed.
-I really have no idea what you're problem is with webbing. It takes precisely 0 seconds to cut through it with a Welder, and even if a Gorge comes up and hits you directly with it your buddies should kill it in seconds.
-Alien building have to autobuild. Letting the Comm drop several buildings and have a marine at each one, where the aliens could only build one at a time would be incredibly unbalancing.
-I don't see how mining resource nodes would be a problem. For the small investment of a free Skulk, the mines are gone. I figure that's a fair trade for the valuable early game RP cost of a mine pack, and the fact you had to send a lone marine deep into alien territory on a mission where even if he did succeed, it's still suicide.
-I've already laughed about the need to get rid of the Skulk attack animation, but I want to do it again. HAHA
"Extra Stuff"
-I figure it's a better idea to take away alien kills. Clanners aren't worried about kills after all, you said it yourself.
-If you're good enough not to hit your teammates, the exact percentage of FF is almost irrelevant isn't it? Not all the clans are playing to be uber-leet and the NS devs have decided to include them in it's balancing considerations.
-I'm pretty sure the only hitscan weapon the aliens have is Parasite. Spikes is an actual projectile if I'm not mistaken.
-We've talked about Umbra before.
-Even without any economy considerations, this is bad for pub balance. People would spend all their time sitting on resource nodes instead of fighting marines where they belong.
-Yeah, EHS is fairly useless. I'ld be looking for something that would make me invisible to motion tracking rather than an upgrade which makes turrets miss. Either way, the ability to see marines better is hardly important when compared to SoF or Cloaking.
-Edit to Ari: He means the Sensory Chamber upgrade Enhanced Hive Sight, not the regular HUD displays of blobs and whatnot.
Alrightythen, let's break it down:
As I said before, the first 4 paragraphs are good. The whats, hows and general whys all look good.
A minor nitpick is that you don't seem terribly impressed with the alien objectives in the early game, the tactic of 'rushing to delay'. But that's the whole point. With one hive, the aliens have a horrible time trying to crack marine defences so your whole goal is to give your Gorge enough time to get a second hive started. That's the way the game is played, and I'm betting it was designed that way.
It's when you get into "Deeper Problems" that trouble starts.
The armor bug is exactly that, a bug which shouldn't exist and unbalances things. How do I know it's unbalancing? Your IRC log. Unlike most pub players and clans the PTs weren't playing to win, they were playing for fun. I can't prove it, but I bet the whole reason the bug wasn't found till now was that people were choosing other upgrades a lot. When somebody did choose Carapace, he lived longer sure, but he was supposed to so nobody thought much of it. The game was balanced without considering the effects of an entire alien team sporting Carapace.
Either way, doubling your effective HP for a 2 RP investment is nuts.
Nobody really tries to defend resource nodes if they know what they're doing. The marines don't need 15 nodes to get a decent income, they only need 3-4. As long as your marines aren't dying left and right that will be enough to keep them equipped and have the upgrades coming in.
-As for massing the marines, that's a required component of play. Sure, you might have enough organization in your clan with everybody having a mic and following orders that your Comm's head wouldn't explode having a single marine in every room of the map. And maybe you're such ninja masters that you can go toe-to-toe with Fade in only light armor weilding an LMG, but this also has to be balanced for pub play where the only feasible way for marines to move is in as big a group as possible.
-Arguing the benefits of 1 Hive Lerks is a little pointless. I really don't think you're ever supposed to see them. In all the games I've played, a decent alien team will have a 2nd hive up shortly after the Skulks hit 33 RP. So at the point anybody could even get to Lerks, they're automatically 2 Hive. Even at 1 Hive though, they're indispensable when trying to take out turret farms due to their long range.
-On the sensory upgrades though, you're basically right. Redemption and Regeneration though I think are going to see dramatic increases in use once Carapace gets fixed.
-I really have no idea what you're problem is with webbing. It takes precisely 0 seconds to cut through it with a Welder, and even if a Gorge comes up and hits you directly with it your buddies should kill it in seconds.
-Alien building have to autobuild. Letting the Comm drop several buildings and have a marine at each one, where the aliens could only build one at a time would be incredibly unbalancing.
-I don't see how mining resource nodes would be a problem. For the small investment of a free Skulk, the mines are gone. I figure that's a fair trade for the valuable early game RP cost of a mine pack, and the fact you had to send a lone marine deep into alien territory on a mission where even if he did succeed, it's still suicide.
-I've already laughed about the need to get rid of the Skulk attack animation, but I want to do it again. HAHA
"Extra Stuff"
-I figure it's a better idea to take away alien kills. Clanners aren't worried about kills after all, you said it yourself.
-If you're good enough not to hit your teammates, the exact percentage of FF is almost irrelevant isn't it? Not all the clans are playing to be uber-leet and the NS devs have decided to include them in it's balancing considerations.
-I'm pretty sure the only hitscan weapon the aliens have is Parasite. Spikes is an actual projectile if I'm not mistaken.
-We've talked about Umbra before.
-Even without any economy considerations, this is bad for pub balance. People would spend all their time sitting on resource nodes instead of fighting marines where they belong.
-Yeah, EHS is fairly useless. I'ld be looking for something that would make me invisible to motion tracking rather than an upgrade which makes turrets miss. Either way, the ability to see marines better is hardly important when compared to SoF or Cloaking.
-Edit to Ari: He means the Sensory Chamber upgrade Enhanced Hive Sight, not the regular HUD displays of blobs and whatnot.
Ari, this isn't just about arguing you understand. I mean You could sit here all day and claim the lerk is balanced and is seeing lots of play, but if you play scrims you'll see first hand that you're wrong. This is true for all of these points:
-lerks
-redemption
-what you're suggesting with umbra(this doesn't happen any differently now then it would)
-hivesight(I'm not even sure what you're saying, if you're not blind you see this stuff fine)
Just to clarify this isn't just me and syn playing but all the opponents we play against. I see what they do and what they use.
You claim this tourny mode score thing is well documented yet provide no examples.......
QUOTE
But in a match of ns it isn't for one reason, scanner sweeps.
No, actually, I beg to differ. Just because the commander tells you that there's an alien around doesn't mean you will be able to do anything about it. You'll just know that there's an alien around, but that'll be old news, because I'll be laughing at you.
I'm thinking maybe you don't know how this works? Scanner sweep has a long duration and we know the names of all the places. If the cmder says an alien is coming around the corner from such and such a place we are all looking at it and he's going to die. And if he moves the scan lasts awhile.....What you're suggesting is unrealistic. Unrealistic in that for all my rounds I have never seen it happen.
-lerks
-redemption
-what you're suggesting with umbra(this doesn't happen any differently now then it would)
-hivesight(I'm not even sure what you're saying, if you're not blind you see this stuff fine)
Just to clarify this isn't just me and syn playing but all the opponents we play against. I see what they do and what they use.
You claim this tourny mode score thing is well documented yet provide no examples.......
QUOTE
But in a match of ns it isn't for one reason, scanner sweeps.
No, actually, I beg to differ. Just because the commander tells you that there's an alien around doesn't mean you will be able to do anything about it. You'll just know that there's an alien around, but that'll be old news, because I'll be laughing at you.
I'm thinking maybe you don't know how this works? Scanner sweep has a long duration and we know the names of all the places. If the cmder says an alien is coming around the corner from such and such a place we are all looking at it and he's going to die. And if he moves the scan lasts awhile.....What you're suggesting is unrealistic. Unrealistic in that for all my rounds I have never seen it happen.
Inexorable.....the early alien delay game is unbalanced. A good marine force will rush your hive and kill you. There is no known strategy to stop this right now and it doesn't look like one is forthcoming.
As for the carapace thing. It is a bug, I said it was a bug, removing it doesn't balance the game tho. Marine rush.......
I don't know what to say to this stuff because they aren't really arguments, tho I will mention turret farms don't exist(or shouldn't) in clan play.
Basically I've answered all this stuff in previous replies. You can find them.
You can't cut through webs that have offensive chambers behind them without getting shot easily(if at all.) I mean, they will soon be abusive, I dunno what to say. It's not something I can prove because its foresight, hopefully the devs will see what I'm talking about and agree.
I'm pretty sure spikes are hitscan tho. I think term was talking about it and he seems to be running all these tests. I could be wrong tho as I haven't tested it myself.
As for the carapace thing. It is a bug, I said it was a bug, removing it doesn't balance the game tho. Marine rush.......
I don't know what to say to this stuff because they aren't really arguments, tho I will mention turret farms don't exist(or shouldn't) in clan play.
Basically I've answered all this stuff in previous replies. You can find them.
You can't cut through webs that have offensive chambers behind them without getting shot easily(if at all.) I mean, they will soon be abusive, I dunno what to say. It's not something I can prove because its foresight, hopefully the devs will see what I'm talking about and agree.
I'm pretty sure spikes are hitscan tho. I think term was talking about it and he seems to be running all these tests. I could be wrong tho as I haven't tested it myself.
| QUOTE (Eats @ Nov 25 2002, 12:33 AM) |
| Iden: You haven't even brought up any points, tho you have brought some credentials and it looks like you pub alot and don't scrim that much. I'm not even sure what you're saying. I've tried to rebut every argument brought so far, and you haven't brought any at all. I mean if you want to argue without points like this we might as well just scrim, and if syn beats you, then will you back down? #webclan irc.gamesnet.net I think we're going to be able to play every weekday night coming up this week, as usual, but I'm not sure if thanksgiving will have some affect on this. We have our own server(thats quite fast) most of the time, but I'm sure we'll be able to find a server if its down. So feel free to stop by and challenge us. |
I pub and play plenty in tournament mode.
If you don't see a point then you're looking at my rant wrong then. I didn't counter any of your points which is what you're looking for. An argument, a place to prove you're right and the others are wrong for once and all.
My "point" is: People/Clans are having different experiences and so aren't you. I've watched several clan matches, including those from IWA, TAU, and EC. I've seen the same number of wins on both sides, often depending on the relative skill of the players.
So let me repeat myself: You seemingly have had different experiences.
Your arguments are based on your experiences and therefore cannot reflect the entire picture of balancing unless you've played in every clan match ever. Have you? I'll answer you here: No you haven't. You have NOT kept track of EVERY single NS clan match or scrim ever.
Sure, I'd love to scrim you guys. You'll rip us to *@#$ing shreds. No doubt. What's that going to prove? You're obviously way more skilled than my clan. So what? Our clan fights and it's the defining turning point in wether all of NS is balanced or not?
If another better clan beats you, will you back down?
| QUOTE (Eats @ Nov 25 2002, 12:22 AM) |
| You can't cut through webs that have offensive chambers behind them without getting shot easily(if at all.) I mean, they will soon be abusive, I dunno what to say. |
Am I wrong... or isn't that the prime way to use webbing? It's actually silly that you're suggesting that webbing should not be used one of the many ways it was intended to be used. OC's do not fire as quickly as marine turrets, using webbing is one way to give the OCs one or two good shots.
There is a limit on the amount of webbing allowed in any one place though, so there really shouldn't be any issues with webbing.
in case you haven't noticed that this argument is running in circles: Eats can only be proven wrong by beating his clan with aliens in a match
furthermore: whoever plays a game not to win, but just to have fun needs not to argue about balance in the first place
furthermore: whoever plays a game not to win, but just to have fun needs not to argue about balance in the first place
Because of its FPS/RTS hybrid gameplay, NS is a game that plays totally different at various skill levels.
And so, we have a fundamental game balance problem : Anything that balances gameplay at the highest skill levels will unbalance gameplay at average skill levels, and vice versa.
Playing public games, the Aliens almost always win, and if the Marines win it is because they captured a Hive very fast, then moved to capture a 2nd hive, then killed off the remaining skulks and lerks. In contrast, scrim games between high-ranked clans result in Marines winning by rushing the Aliens' first Hive before they can get a second one. This strategy is impossible on public servers, where one good Skulk player can bite three newbie Marines to death with ease.
If the marine rush was somehow 'nerfed' so that high-level play was balanced, then average-level play would be horrifyingly imbalanced in favor of the Aliens.
That said, several of Shambler's (Eats) points are completely correct.
1) Skulk bite model is disorienting. The NS team has continued to say that they will not implement AvP-style wallcrawl for the Skulk because it disorients players. Yet, the skulk bite effect is every bit as disorienting as AvP wallcrawling, and it continues to be in the game; you can't easily turn it off. Why oh why?!??!?!
2) One hive aliens have no choice other than Skulk. Yes, a Lerk can be powerful in the hands of a good player. However, the fact that, by taking 33 RP from the pool, it *greatly* delays your taking a second Hive, makes one-Hive lerks a rather stupid choice in pub and scrim games. The problem with this is that Skulks alone just aren't good for game balance. The only way to kill a good Marine with Skulk is to sneak up on him, but this greatly limits your strategic options as an Alien team. If Lerks were cheaper in RP (~15 RP or so) then they would be a viable class for shooting at marines with Spikes at one Hive. Right now, it's not that Lerks are weak, just that they are far too expensive for a one-Hive team to afford.
2a) I don't have any problem with the Umbra protection thing. Dark Swarm in Starcraft doesn't protect people behind the swarm... Umbra would be horribly imbalanced if it protected guys behind it.
3) A well-coordinated Marine rush is ludicrously good. Although it may be discounted as "clanners shouldn't hit each other anyways", I think that putting 100% friendly fire into tournament-mode matches would, to some extent, weaken the Marine rush. Marines would have to be a lot more careful shotgunning skulks when they could hit each other. Also, it may (or may not) be worthwhile to make Turrets cause FF damage to marines - the proximal tfac would be much less powerful then.
4) Right now there is an imbalance with Marine turrets : 3-4 turrets are a pathetically weak defense, but >10 turrets in a public game are invulnerable. The weakness of small numbers of turrets makes defending resource nodes difficult for Marines, because they cannot afford to put up large numbers of turrets at every node. The reason small numbers of turrets are so weak is because you can eat one turret, then eat the Tfac because the other turrets can't reach you. Large numbers of turrets cover every side of the tfac, and don't have this weakness. I think that Marine turrets should be much weaker and slightly cheaper, but shoot straight THROUGH tfac, just like Offense Chambers can shoot through the resource node. If turrets were weaker but shot through tfacs, the end effect would be that small numbers of turrets are more powerful (No more "bite one turret then kill the tfac") while large number of turrets are weaker. It would allow the Marines to better protect their resource node, while weakening the effect of massed turrets in a main base.
And so, we have a fundamental game balance problem : Anything that balances gameplay at the highest skill levels will unbalance gameplay at average skill levels, and vice versa.
Playing public games, the Aliens almost always win, and if the Marines win it is because they captured a Hive very fast, then moved to capture a 2nd hive, then killed off the remaining skulks and lerks. In contrast, scrim games between high-ranked clans result in Marines winning by rushing the Aliens' first Hive before they can get a second one. This strategy is impossible on public servers, where one good Skulk player can bite three newbie Marines to death with ease.
If the marine rush was somehow 'nerfed' so that high-level play was balanced, then average-level play would be horrifyingly imbalanced in favor of the Aliens.
That said, several of Shambler's (Eats) points are completely correct.
1) Skulk bite model is disorienting. The NS team has continued to say that they will not implement AvP-style wallcrawl for the Skulk because it disorients players. Yet, the skulk bite effect is every bit as disorienting as AvP wallcrawling, and it continues to be in the game; you can't easily turn it off. Why oh why?!??!?!
2) One hive aliens have no choice other than Skulk. Yes, a Lerk can be powerful in the hands of a good player. However, the fact that, by taking 33 RP from the pool, it *greatly* delays your taking a second Hive, makes one-Hive lerks a rather stupid choice in pub and scrim games. The problem with this is that Skulks alone just aren't good for game balance. The only way to kill a good Marine with Skulk is to sneak up on him, but this greatly limits your strategic options as an Alien team. If Lerks were cheaper in RP (~15 RP or so) then they would be a viable class for shooting at marines with Spikes at one Hive. Right now, it's not that Lerks are weak, just that they are far too expensive for a one-Hive team to afford.
2a) I don't have any problem with the Umbra protection thing. Dark Swarm in Starcraft doesn't protect people behind the swarm... Umbra would be horribly imbalanced if it protected guys behind it.
3) A well-coordinated Marine rush is ludicrously good. Although it may be discounted as "clanners shouldn't hit each other anyways", I think that putting 100% friendly fire into tournament-mode matches would, to some extent, weaken the Marine rush. Marines would have to be a lot more careful shotgunning skulks when they could hit each other. Also, it may (or may not) be worthwhile to make Turrets cause FF damage to marines - the proximal tfac would be much less powerful then.
4) Right now there is an imbalance with Marine turrets : 3-4 turrets are a pathetically weak defense, but >10 turrets in a public game are invulnerable. The weakness of small numbers of turrets makes defending resource nodes difficult for Marines, because they cannot afford to put up large numbers of turrets at every node. The reason small numbers of turrets are so weak is because you can eat one turret, then eat the Tfac because the other turrets can't reach you. Large numbers of turrets cover every side of the tfac, and don't have this weakness. I think that Marine turrets should be much weaker and slightly cheaper, but shoot straight THROUGH tfac, just like Offense Chambers can shoot through the resource node. If turrets were weaker but shot through tfacs, the end effect would be that small numbers of turrets are more powerful (No more "bite one turret then kill the tfac") while large number of turrets are weaker. It would allow the Marines to better protect their resource node, while weakening the effect of massed turrets in a main base.
Why stop there? I personally think it should go back to not requiring the TFac to power the sentries. Even pub players are figuring out that Umbra devastates SGs, so why have this big Achilles heel?
Yeah, as long as sentry turrets are somewhat weakened, it would be a very good idea to go back to not requiring the tfac.
I think everyone is pushing the balance issue too far... it is going to take time for ns to get balanced. I don't actually expect to see NS balanced for another 4-6 months, not because of the skill of the devs. Just because balancing is a **obscenity** to do, fix one cheese strat and 2 more pop up.
Also if you aren't playing totaly to win you don't belong in this thread. This thread deals ONLY with clan match situations, calling it a scrim then playing like a pub is not a clan match situation.
I totally agree with BoddoZerg, the delay that early lerk causes to the 2nd hive makes it useless in competative play. I can figure out the time later it delays the fades but AS FADES ARE NOW delaying 2nd hive is pointless.
Also if you aren't playing totaly to win you don't belong in this thread. This thread deals ONLY with clan match situations, calling it a scrim then playing like a pub is not a clan match situation.
I totally agree with BoddoZerg, the delay that early lerk causes to the 2nd hive makes it useless in competative play. I can figure out the time later it delays the fades but AS FADES ARE NOW delaying 2nd hive is pointless.
not to double post but this should be noted also.
the skulk attacks things off the screen so the omg amazing 0 range tracking skill everyone talks about is kind of a moot point when you are attacking with a huge radius.
Coil can confirm this, iirc bug2.dem the prototype lab dies when i'm attacking the armory.
the skulk attacks things off the screen so the omg amazing 0 range tracking skill everyone talks about is kind of a moot point when you are attacking with a huge radius.
Coil can confirm this, iirc bug2.dem the prototype lab dies when i'm attacking the armory.
too long; didn't read.
Summary plz.
Summary plz.
| QUOTE (Odin @ Nov 25 2002, 10:12 PM) |
| too long; didn't read. Summary plz. |
In the distant future man colonizes Mars while virtual reality has become a substitutue for vacation. One company "Recall" can implant memories of any event into one's mind for a price. The memories and experiences implanted seem as real as if they actually occurred. One man as played by Arnold Schwarzenegger decides to go to Recall and have a memory implanted of a vacation on Mars (or what he thinks is a memory implant). In reality he is on the Martian landscape not knowing who he is but having an adventure so unbelievable that he belives it has to be a virtual dream.
As the movie unfolds one discovers that the adventure on Mars is indeed real, but it is the personality of the man which has been altered. To get closer to the leader of the Mars Resistance movement, those in charge of Mars send their best agent to find and assasinate the leader. The man sent is of course Arnold Schwarzenegger who discovers that in reality before being programmed with his new personality that he was quite a mean and vindictive soul. But sometimes people can change and as things are under way to convert Arnold back to his former self, he rebels. Stabbing an attendent with his arm restraint and busting out of his chair he climbs to freedom.
Air generators are turned off on Mars in an attempt to kill off Mars resistance forces. Alien artifacts and a legend of a machine deep in the core that can turn ice to oxygen prompt a trek deep within the planet. As the machine is turned on Arnold's eyes buldge out in one of the more memorable special effects scenes. Like a cartoon character out of control or Jim Carrey during transformation in the Mask, Arnold's face contorts in every which way because of lack of air.
There ya go dewd.
| QUOTE |
| FatKao's summary |
Ok Thanks d00d.
ok, lets see.
I'm gonna quote an answer to this from the general discussion thread:
| QUOTE |
| Anything that balances gameplay at the highest skill levels will unbalance gameplay at average skill levels, and vice versa. |
I'm gonna quote an answer to this from the general discussion thread:
| QUOTE |
QUOTE While clans are important to the gaming community, they are not more important than the non-clan members of the gaming community. It probably would not be wise of any dev team to primarily cater to clans. So it only makes sense to try and make the game so that it is as balanced as can be when played on pub servers. As such, experience on pub servers does count. QUOTE It would be the mod equivalent of suicide to play-balance for clan gaming. Because, those clans would only exist, after recruiting from the pub players. If you balance towards clan-play, the game seems to suck to the pub players, and the clans wither and die as a result. This isn't so much false, as taking my suggestions overboard. But lets even go so far as to do that. Have you ever considered that the game could be different in tournament mode versus non tournament mode(ie. pub mode)? It already is different in some ways(ff, etc) This way it could be balanced for both. But I don't feel any changes this drastic need to be made. I think most if not all of these issues could be resolved while keeping the game good for both competitive play and casual play. |
I posted asome reply to boddo at shambler.net(since thats where he's from ) but I'll post it here incase anyone is wondering about the points he brings up:
I can't reply on nat selection boards cause I'm not home and don't know pw off head. But anyway, you should know that facts shouldn't see any use in matches right now unless they are being used to seige the enemy hive, and I think thats fine as it is really. Turning this game into a bunch of turrets would be very not fun. Also do you realize that if turrets can shoot thru the fact then aliens have no way to attack a turret farm until 2nd hive umbra/fades?
This umbra change wouldn't really unbalance the game. It wouldn't change how people are doing things now at all really. I think you could do it if you changed the type of the entity so that scanlines would hit it, then with some creative coding(similar to shooting thru walls in cs) you could make the umbra stop some of the scanlines(bullets) right there. This could become a problem with how the shotgun works tho, I'd have to see the code to know exactly whats going on and to refresh my memory on how shotties work.
I don't claim to be any programming expert tho, and I'm afraid I don't remember an entity like that existing in the hl code........So I'm not sure about this.
and syn! stop posting total recall summaries!
) but I'll post it here incase anyone is wondering about the points he brings up:I can't reply on nat selection boards cause I'm not home and don't know pw off head. But anyway, you should know that facts shouldn't see any use in matches right now unless they are being used to seige the enemy hive, and I think thats fine as it is really. Turning this game into a bunch of turrets would be very not fun. Also do you realize that if turrets can shoot thru the fact then aliens have no way to attack a turret farm until 2nd hive umbra/fades?
This umbra change wouldn't really unbalance the game. It wouldn't change how people are doing things now at all really. I think you could do it if you changed the type of the entity so that scanlines would hit it, then with some creative coding(similar to shooting thru walls in cs) you could make the umbra stop some of the scanlines(bullets) right there. This could become a problem with how the shotgun works tho, I'd have to see the code to know exactly whats going on and to refresh my memory on how shotties work.
I don't claim to be any programming expert tho, and I'm afraid I don't remember an entity like that existing in the hl code........So I'm not sure about this.
and syn! stop posting total recall summaries!
Can this topic be locked please? It's just a big fight.
yes please do. before i get sick from the skulk model and throw up. rofl 
1) skulk bite model. Why is this a problem? all of the 'good' players can live with it, and I don't find it bothersome either. I'm not a wonderful skulk, but I do have my moments, and the model or lack of it isn't a huge problem.
2) Lerks are somewhat pointless pre-2nd hive, but once they get there, they can take down almost anything. early game uselessness is balanced by lategame usefulness.
2) Lerks are somewhat pointless pre-2nd hive, but once they get there, they can take down almost anything. early game uselessness is balanced by lategame usefulness.
The skulk view model: Starts out as a few teeth on the upper and lower parts of your screen, once you "fire", the jaws swiftly move their way together and bring the teeth together in the middle of your screen, then they open just as fast as they close, all happens in less then a second, your view is hardly obstructed. Hold "fire" and things get a bit worse, but not by much, if you have a problem with "spamming" your bites, maybe you should time them like I do.
All I'm hearing is complaints about "good" marines being able to kill skulks, which is really ignorant as "good" skulks can tear a marine squad apart before they even know it.
I'm sick of hearing about balance issues, there are a few things that need to be sorted, but over all the standard gameplay is as amazing as we expected.
After EGC's match with EC the other night, I have a brand new addiction to NS.
It seems the big issue here is "marine rushes", and no matter how much you think you're "right" about how marine rushes are unstoppable, they *can* be stopped. What happend to skulk rushes? Where will the marines be when they have 6 or 7 skulks in their base? Taking down that hive wont make much difference when you've lost your infantry portal(s), 6 or 7 skulks chewing on your CC at once and choking on resources to build another in time.
All I'm hearing is complaints about "good" marines being able to kill skulks, which is really ignorant as "good" skulks can tear a marine squad apart before they even know it.
I'm sick of hearing about balance issues, there are a few things that need to be sorted, but over all the standard gameplay is as amazing as we expected.
After EGC's match with EC the other night, I have a brand new addiction to NS.
It seems the big issue here is "marine rushes", and no matter how much you think you're "right" about how marine rushes are unstoppable, they *can* be stopped. What happend to skulk rushes? Where will the marines be when they have 6 or 7 skulks in their base? Taking down that hive wont make much difference when you've lost your infantry portal(s), 6 or 7 skulks chewing on your CC at once and choking on resources to build another in time.
this should end all skulk argument
http://web.njit.edu/~jtm4/omgbitehack.avi
sloppy skulking and amazing skulking isn't much difference, it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack.
http://web.njit.edu/~jtm4/omgbitehack.avi
sloppy skulking and amazing skulking isn't much difference, it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack.
| QUOTE (FatKao @ Nov 25 2002, 11:50 PM) |
| this should end all skulk argument http://web.njit.edu/~jtm4/omgbitehack.avi sloppy skulking and amazing skulking isn't much difference, it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack. |
There's more to it than that. That video depicts a skulk who is aiming to the side, BUT he's still almost touching the marine, when marines are bouncing around it still takes at least some skill to dodge well while closing the distance for a bite (strafing randomly and jumping a bit while compensating for the predicted direction the marine is moving). Groups of doncing skulks can sometimes take out marines with good aim. When you said "it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack" do you mean approaching as in ambushing/attacking from behind, how well you dodge while in view, or both?
| QUOTE (Ekaj @ Nov 26 2002, 07:12 AM) |
| When you said "it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack" do you mean approaching as in ambushing/attacking from behind, how well you dodge while in view, or both? |
Good skulking is all about using the map to it's fullest, knowing where to go to get behind someone when they are spraying at you, usking the vents and corners of the map to flank groups of marines, attacking the marine that is farthest away from the group to get him shot by his team (not an issue in 33% FF tho). Once the skulk gets to the marine the marine SHOULD die, your job as marine is to kill the skulk before it gets to you. Or that's at least what i've seen.
The fact is with the skulks your using the bite of a creatures that would be able to move its head seperately from its body which is not implemented in NS and rightly so as it would be to hard to use.
The skulks bite radius really can be attribted to the creature moving its head slightly in the direction of the enemy.
Skulking would be far too hard if its radius was made a lot smaller.
I'd think some people have made some good points about the difference between clan play and high level clan play. Clans are likely to use the most aggressive, clever, devious and powerful tactics which will only work when you've got a clan full of skilled players working together effectively.
Marines rushes are very hard to stop, once they're in the hive the spawning skulks don't have a chance against good marines, and the marines would expect an attack from behind by the aliens that weren't killed in the marine assault.
But you almost never see this on pubs, and its not that common on the few passworded servers i've played on.
The fact is the extreme differences in the two sides, and the fact that ns is more complex that a lot of games means that strategy differences are always going to be major between public play and clan play.
Making a game balanced for two quite different sets of people and game situations is nigh-on impossible.
I don't see why also because a clan is better than another makes someones opinion more viable than the other. One person may simply have better general skills, or learned to play a different way.
Balance is always going to be an issue perceived from your own playing expirience, and people have different expiriences of the same game.
Happy hunting, Mark
The skulks bite radius really can be attribted to the creature moving its head slightly in the direction of the enemy.
Skulking would be far too hard if its radius was made a lot smaller.
I'd think some people have made some good points about the difference between clan play and high level clan play. Clans are likely to use the most aggressive, clever, devious and powerful tactics which will only work when you've got a clan full of skilled players working together effectively.
Marines rushes are very hard to stop, once they're in the hive the spawning skulks don't have a chance against good marines, and the marines would expect an attack from behind by the aliens that weren't killed in the marine assault.
But you almost never see this on pubs, and its not that common on the few passworded servers i've played on.
The fact is the extreme differences in the two sides, and the fact that ns is more complex that a lot of games means that strategy differences are always going to be major between public play and clan play.
Making a game balanced for two quite different sets of people and game situations is nigh-on impossible.
I don't see why also because a clan is better than another makes someones opinion more viable than the other. One person may simply have better general skills, or learned to play a different way.
Balance is always going to be an issue perceived from your own playing expirience, and people have different expiriences of the same game.
Happy hunting, Mark
The skulk animation is fine. If you run around holding down trigger then you are not a very good skulk.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.