I have said this before because it bothers me a lot, but i think NS would be a much more likable game for many more people if the gap in player effectiveness was smaller between people with and without an elite skill set for the game.

I know there are courses for teaching ns to the players who are not great but I think most people prefer the idea of playing a game to have fun, then learning to be a tournament player later.

With that, I will see you guys in the NS2 demo. Best of luck with the future of the game guys.

outside of a non-random auto-join plugin that distributes skill based on player ranking (not hard to do), don't expect to ever see this.

and that would never happen anyway cause at this stage of NS's life any server that implemented such a plugin would never populate.

You're welcome to join the training next Friday at 9:00 pm eastern time. Our focus will be on strategy.

As to your post, it's not the skill discrepancy that's the problem, it's the skill curve.

Example.

A new player will lerk as soon as possible because they want to try out the new cool flying bat thing. In reality they should be gorging, but gorging doesn't have the novelty appeal or general interest of lerking, so no new players do their jobs as new players. The game is unintuitive in the extreme, and since many of the players have no background in RTS games, you end up with a lot of disoriented pub play.

This compounds with the fact that NS is a wildly complex game, and while it's the nature of the beast (and one of the main reasons I play the game at all), it can be lessened quite a lot, in my opinion.

Well, you post something that I think a lot of people agree with, but so far, the methods haven't gotten there.

I've thought of some... but they all have different drawbacks.

1. Handicaps
Pros:
- choose what team you want to join
Cons:
- nerfing the better
- what do you actually nerf?

2. Auto Team
Pros:
- somewhat even teams
Cons:
- no choice in teams

3. Random
Pros:
- simplest method
- available now
Cons:
- no choice in teams

4. "Get Better"
Pros:
- easy to say?
Cons:
- never happens?

But it depends on what people are lacking. Some people do not understand the maps at all, others are behind in terms of reflexes.

Smood, you have better things to do with your time than troll these boards.

He's right though. You can learn all you want about strategy and tactics, but when you go toe to toe with someone who has way better reflexes than you you're ######. I can't tell you how many marines I've bitten in the back only to be gunned down before managing a second bite.

He also forgot a solution:
Increase health and/or decrease the damage every unit can do. Should lessen the effect of raw reflexes. Con is that games would probably be longer (If you're the sort of person who counts that as a con).

Also, WTH?

Where do you expect them to get the res for that job? Perma-gorging is basically a waste of time in the current NS. New players should be skulking, which they don't do because its hard and skulks are practically useless from mid-game on. And of course biting res nodes is always sooo much fun.

Some general ideas how to make the pubbing less skill orientated while not dumbing down would be nice since this thread is here. Even with random teams or ranking plugins one player is 4x more experienced and skilled than the rest. I'd say the tutorials are the best solution at the moment while ns:s can do something more radical to change the gameplay.

No, shouldn't you be doing... oh I don't know, your little NS helpers program? I'm giving some possible ideas, listing some traits about them.

Look, people like you make all clanners look like whining babies. Next time, post something that takes intelligence to write.

And this is what we call irony.


The problem with NS isn't quite the "skill gap", it's how the said skill gap affects the game. In most games, there are servers that you join according to your level. You get better, you go on a better server. You can't follow, you go on an "easier" server. In any case, you'll find something suited to your needs and you can progress quite easily.
Same goes with RTS style games, where ladders indicate your progress (or lack of)

NS isn't yet another "point and shoot" nor is it a simple RTS. People usually know what to do in these games. But when you start playing NS, you're absolutely on your own. You go on a server that's too good for you and you get yelled on without knowing why. You go on these "newbie servers" and you end up believing that farming turrets at each RT is a viable solution. It's just that overall you can't start playing NS for a few days and fall in love with it. It's just too unforgiving for the newcomer.

I'm sure that we need a tutorial. We don't need to close the gap, we need to convince the people who just decide to try out this game to figure out that it can be fun. Whereas right now, you start playing, you don't know anything, you get confused, and decide to quit and never return.
A tutorial can explain to you the basics. The basics being mostly about the role of the commander, the role of the marine, what you're supposed to do in each team. Because honestly, the guy who just started playing just wants to survive. And he can't do that if he's not warned that skulks WILL ambush you, skulks move fast, you're not supposed to walk down an alley as skulk, that the lerk is actually very fragile and needs to fly nearly all the time, that the fade is far from invincible when walking, etc.

True.



More True.



Most True.


Couldn't have said it better, thanx team.

There is a tutorial. It can help show you what some marine buildings do, but it no way prepares you for aiming at leaping skulks, blinking fades, etc. I suppose combat can help there.

In Halo 2 and Warcraft 3, you get your own level, so you fight people in your same bracket. NS throws everyone in the same basket. This makes games prone to stacking, finishing within 5 minutes, etc. And while CS, it can happen, the game resets every 2 minutes or so. It's not a 30 minute commitment.

While the tutorial can be okay, I find the best experience to be just that - actually playing the game. Playing with people at your level however, is the least frustrating.

people keep talking about reflexes for being good, when really being good is easy enough with experience prediction. you don't need makaveli's reflexes to kill a skulk in 15 bullets, you need to predict where hes going before he goes there and shoot there.

Seriously, there are many ways to get better at most of the things in this game, try to think of some that will work for you. I'm a prime example of some one who's considered decent but really my pure "skill" is ###### horrible.

Even in wc3 playerbase the system doesn't work. Lvl 23 player vs lvl 1 are more a rule than an exception. The only thing it does is it keeps the very top and the very bottom separated. Its better than nothing, but doesn't really ensure the balance in any way.

Hopefully ns:s has large enough playerbase to form servers of various levels. I think surftown servers had some very high level pubbing while ns was doing great. It didn't take a matchmaking system, just the playerbase large enough to have those 10 or so good players playing pub at the same time.

i believe this is the most ironic statement on these forums. smood, youre either one of the best trolls ns.com has seen in a long while, or the dumbest, most misguided persona non grata ever to have registered here.


and if you didnt read that because youve deliberately decided to deny all criticism and instead attempted to turn valid inquiries (they are valid because your arguments and statements are subjective) concerning your agenda into personal attacks, and consequently, though highly illogically, reply with personal attacks, then at least read this: the problems you conceive to exist in natural selection are not objective problems, they are subjective problems. stop acting like you're the voice of the people.

*sees an interesting topic*

*sees SmoodCroozn has already found it*

*closes window*

Tomekki all you had to say is that you have a problem.

Seriously, what's with everybody hating SmoodCroozn? He makes a lot of good points that I believe are felt by at least a minority (if not everybody) of the NS player base. I don't know what the original post that ruined his reputation was, but I haven't seen him make any stupid statements or suggestions lately.

And to stay on topic, I do think that the skill gap needs to be closed, especially for aliens. A l33t fade can go 50-0, but a n00b skulk can't get a bite on anybody (and if they go lerk, fade, or onos, the same holds true; they die almost immediately and waste loads of res).

I heard someone mention on another thread that the fade blink change being something that narrowed the skill gap. By having a bind, you don't need insane reflexes to switch between weapons and be able to fade "properly" (thereby helping the n00bs) while the l33t players complain about how the new blink is slow (thereby giving them a new challenge to overcome).

Yes, you are correct, +movement has lowered the skill required to play as the fade.

But why do many people have a vendetta against me? Well, I used to forum here and there in the I&S, until recently this year. Then I got tired of this clanner whining and bickering that came up everytime someone posted a new idea.

"What a new idea? JUST PLAY BETTAR NOOB!" is probably the most common phrase I've seen.

I do believe in closing the skill gap, or at least matching people with opponents of their own caliber. You look at Warcraft 3, Halo 2 or even wrestling and you'll see more even matches than some random NS pub. But then these clannerds come and again pester me about some skill nonsense. Then you realize they can't argue, so you don't.

I mean, if you really want to shut me down, then you need to prove your point to me than simply using insults and this skill excuse. Lately, all they have been doing is crying at me as Tomekki is showing or just losing it as Mak is doing in his "CARA IS OVERPOWERED" thread, where his only argument is because he can't solo a fade.

I guess I'm arrogant, but that's to reflect how many people here treat those who aren't exactly satisfied with NS. If they could be more mature and explain their positions clearly without resorting to insults, then I wouldn't have to do what I'm doing now.

because of your provoking behaviour and evident ignorance towards all aspects of ns's gameplay.


a case example


see above. these largely unfounded and aggravating side comments are the reason people are so annoyed with your presence.


your tendency to hide personal attacks in your posts, without apparently even noticing it yourself, leads me to wonder whether you're really being serious or just trolling.


if you really want anyone to accept your views, then you need to prove them in some other way than with faulty logic and inaccurate observations of the game.


if that's your definition of crying then you must be quite oversensitive yourself.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


it's hard to take someone that arrogant seriously. one way you could maybe alleviate this current, rather hostile climate is to learn the basics of argumentation.

he is the angry casual player personified. all clanners are evil, and any counter-argument by a clanner is met with the typical stereotyped clanner-paraphrasing response i.e.



basically, he thinks clanners can only use raged pre-pubescent arguments such as "LOL GET BETTER AT THE GAME AND PLAY IT TWENTY HOURS A DAY LIKE A REAL COMPUTER ATHELETE LIKE MYSELF" - seriously scan over this thread and look at where the upper case comments are coming from.

then there was the claim that he represents the large portion of the community who like 3.1.2 and hate 3.2. he champions the little guy's case. my hero <3

edit/

his arrogance i have no issue with. i give him more respect for taking a side than the fair number of people here who sit on the fence, scared less they upset someone.

Closing the skill gap by training new players is a great idea in theory. Unfortunately, when you are new, you don't want to go on a message board and read how to play the game. You just want to go play it. You might think that's stupid, but its reality. If training could be somehow build in to the game so that new players don't have to actively look for it, this would help. Also, people need to read the stickied "You were all new once" post from ages ago.

As for the topic about Smood...Sometimes he does post good stuff but it gets ignored just because people don't like him. But Smood, I think you are confused about clanners. The "get better nubzor" response is quite common, but not because most clanners are like that. There are just a few on here that repeatedly respond this way.

For those of you blind enough to pass over this post, here it is again. Read it.

And remember, this is a MOD and it is absolutely free and unfortunately it will never be as polished as the block buster games out there. Not to say it doesn't impressively hold it's own, but the game itself has already far exceeded its expectations as a Mod. This late in the game things aren't going to drastically change.

I have nothing against clanners. As a matter of fact, I have no opinion of them, and I would like to try playing competitively myself sometime. I do agree with Smood about many l33t players using the "GET BETTER NOOB" argument though. I know how to play the game, I know all the technical details behind playing well, and I am not a n00b. However, I can't aim and bunnyhop like I'm some sort of god. Not everyone can aim like that, and not everyone even has the physical capability to do that (be it lack of body strength, or simply because they dont have a highly sensitive mouse).

I know how to play the game well. Don't tell me to "get better" as a pretext for keeping X game feature so it doesn't get nerfed and you can't go 50-0 anymore.

Sorry, totally off topic. Just ranting a bit.

thats what i used to think before i started playing in a clan. humhumhummm, got ego?


thats because you havent played competetively. except, change that to "aim and bunnyhop at all". okay, there are exceptions


what body strength do you need to move a mouse over a mat? come on. and ive seen plenty of players perform well with some stone age mouse and/or computer. its just about who you play against, who you play with and what you make out of it. before, youve probably played with and against random players and made nothing out of the experience, except maybe a few tears. clanning is nothing like that


no one is telling you that as a pretext for what you said. what people are trying to say is "please expand your knowledge of this game before suggesting gameplay changes, because your suggestion alone reveals that you dont fully understand what the gameplay aspect you wish to see changed even does and affects."

Bam! Right there, dismissing my comments, assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about (or in other words, because you think I'm a n00b). I've actually started playing in some scrims recently with EvolveNS, and the play experience is definitely different overall in terms of strategy compared to public servers.

Having said that, it's actually a relief for me to play with people who know what they're doing, rather than having ###### teammates on public servers. I knew what is expected of myself, and I know what is expected of my team, even before I started playing with them. A lot of things that I wish my teammates would do on a pub are "givens" when playing in a competitive match. I didn't need to play competitively to know the technical details of playing well, its called intelligence. How do you think the very first competitive NS players figured out how to play well? There were no tutorials and there were no competitive standards to go by. They learned it themselves! I'm sure that there are other players like me out there, who are actually smart, and who actually know WTH they're doing, but can't aim well because they haven't been playing NS since the day it came out. You don't have to aim well to make thoughtful suggestions about improving the game.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say that I don't know what I'm doing; my opinions would still remain valid. Perhaps I might actually represent the majority of players who think Y game feature is too difficult to utilize, or Z feature is overpowered. Maybe it just takes a n00b and some common sense to figure out what works and what doesn't. The fade blink bind (come on, we all know that it was meant for fades) was a perfect change toward making the game more accessible to new players. Switching between slots while trying to hit and run was too complicated for a new player to learn easily, much less master (which is why all the noobies went to CO maps and went onos).

But enough of defending myself. You've just furthered the stereotype of the stuck-up l33t clanner. Talk about ego yourself...

Read the above again, and consider if you should have posted that previous reply at all.

i dont have to think i just read your replies


ns wasnt the first competetive multiplayer online fps game. also, there was a lot more competition when ns first came out


no, they learned it from each other and from possible previous experience with other games.


sure you do


did someone say that? no. stop putting words into my or anyone elses mouth


maybe. maybe you could fix a boeing 747 without ever having seen a technical machine before. but maybe you need experience as well as common sense.

i try to stay away from stereotyping people. but if i didnt, id surely draw some conclusions from the fact that you didnt even read my post before replying to it

Ots: My reply was completely necessary because...
Tomekki: ...I did read your original responses in their entireties, and every single one of them was condescending. I don't care if youre the Queen of England, you should show a little respect. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm insulting what you're saying to me. Maybe I insulted you by calling you a "stuck-up l33t clanner", but by talking down to me, that factually confirmed that you're stuck-up. As for this quote...



Let's pretend it's the days of NS v3.1.3, and I said, "Oh man, every time I go Onos, I always get torn up by a rambo HMGer. I think that the Onos should be given more HP so it doesn't die so easily." Would you say either:

1. The reason that you die so easily is because you're inexperienced, and you should practice more so you can live longer (the "get better n00b" argument). Or,
2. I accept the possibility that your suggestion may be valid, and a gameplay tweak may help improve the situation (positive discussion).

Go on, tell me truthfully what you would have said to me. It doesn't matter that I haven't played NS for 5 years, and it doesn't matter that I'm not a competitive player. Many of your responses to me attempt to undermine the fact that I know how to play NS (if anyone disagrees with this, read his responses again and think about the fact that he's talking down to me). The quote above uses that assumption and implies that I am not allowed to contribute suggestions on improving the game.



Replace the phrase "aim well" with "veteran/clanner". It goes back to my previous argument that a person's ideas and suggestions are frequently dismissed based upon the assumption that they don't know how to play the game well.



More evidence of you talking down to me, questioning either my intelligence or game playing skill, without bothering to consider that veterans/clanners aren't the only people that can play NS decently. Your local reverend may not be the Pope, but that doesn't mean that everything he says is invalid.

And a gas station attendant couldn't fix a 747, but I'll bet that he would tell the designers they did something wrong if they tried to put 3 sets of wings on it.

youre right, i am talking down on you. but not because of whether or not you understand ns's gameplay. the real reason why im being a bit contemptuous and sarcastic is your blatantly overbloated ego. dont get me wrong, i mightve been just like that as well but losing 3 ensl premiere division finals in a row teaches you humility.


as an answer to that specific question; i would have told you to get better, noob. maybe if you had said something along the lines of "the onoses hit points are not adequate for its main purpose for which it needs them (no i wont tell you what it is, guess), and this directly contributes to the fact that the onoses strength is disproportionate to its cost. in the light of the preceding sentence, i would like to see X altered." then i wouldve contributed to the discussion.

in other words, stop acting like a whiny little kid trying to get her will through.


you still dont get it, do you. your ideas are not dismissed because of your personal capabilities, whether or not you play the game well. your ideas are dismissed because they suck. and this goes for everybody.


i am amazed at how can someone with so much "intelligence" and "common sense" be so childishly egocentered

What ###### ego??

people make me sad.

[please don't backseat moderate these forums. If you have an issue with forum moderation, contact the Community Leads - Comprox or Mouse] - puzl

In most situations, you won't have the time to "think" it through. That's where experience comes in.



By thinking and more importantly, trial and error.



Well you think you know (or can figure out) the ins and outs of the game, but you obviously haven't if you just started competitive play. If you don't believe me, keep scrimming.

Thank you, FREIGHT_TRAIN, for responding to me in a polite, mature manner. I do see your point in saying that experience is necessary (I've been playing NS several times a week for over a year, though I never said that I was specifically better than anyone, and I realize that a year isn't a lot to some other players) to be a good player. All I'm saying is that I know enough not to res ###### for an onos, or go off ramboing with a heavy/HMG (or put a PG against a wall, or be a battle lerk...). I'm just trying to defend myself; I'm not trying to be egotistical at all, and if I'm coming off that way, I apologize.

And x5, mind PMing me what you posted? I'm curious.

You don't need to defend yourself against somebody who has no logic. I don't understand what goes through Tomekki's head, first he complains about pubs and even states don't play on them, yet he retreats when I ask him where are all the 6v6 servers. Just say what you have to say.

I wouldn't say that the amount of time you spent playing is a big factor (as long as it's not 2 weeks vs. 2 months). It's who you play with and who you associate with in the game. If you play with the <BAD> clan players for a year, you haven't gotten anywhere. If a good competitive player was your personal friend, you followed his every word, and you had a good hardware setup, you could be better than the <BAD> clan players in a month.

thread has aids

I guess...

Well things like learning the map does take a while to learn.

What you could do is play on pubs and see what each team does to win the game.

Because I've seen so many sieges on com core on the LEFT side of it (west core access), I found that's a very important place to hold.

Also, I've seen games where aliens were pinned down, but one onos got into marine start and destroyed everything... Never underestimate the onos at the base.

But if you don't want to take the long painful trip, perhaps learning from someone else is faster. I do find "learning" to "play" a game, in order to be "able to have fun" ironic.

No no, it is the learning that is fun.

if you ever actually took the time to get out of the mind sets youve formed with your own "Logic", you'd notice that nothing i say contradicts logic or whatever i had said earlier. you think this is some game of retreat and advance?


you dont have to defend yourself, no one cares, its just for your own good that you should acknowledge that experience is a huge part of playing the game well. huge. more huge than all the other aspects


theres so many things wrong with this statement i dont even know where to begin with. read what pantsu said

Well, I find the part where you actually ride the ride more fun than waiting in line.

There's no way to learn without actually playing the game. Sure you may spent 10-15 minutes talking about what you did right and wrong, but that happens in everything you try to get better at. You ever played a sport Smood?

You can pick up most of a game's mechanics in a VERY short period of time. I learned to play NS initially from friends of mine that I played competitive TFC with, and in about 2-3 months you can understand what's happening. That's where most of your first "good" players come from, they are imported from other games and understand how to read a game and figure out the mechanics. Being able to manipulate the flow of the game and use your knowledge to the best of your personal abilities is what takes a lot more time to master.

Your statement that it's ironic that you have to learn to play a game in order to have fun is a bit outlandish since that applies to everything in life. You may have fun mindlessly running around being demolished, but knowing what I do about gaming I tend to not enjoy being raped due to my poor knowledge of the game. Same applies to other things like sports, debate, non-computer games, etc; if you don't understand the mechanics, it can be hard to enjoy it. It's no fun being fool's mated in chess because you don't understand how bishops, queens, and pawns work, it is easily frustrating. Your statement that its more fun to ride the ride than to wait in line is true; it's also true that riding a ride requires no knowledge to ride it besides basic life functions like walking, sitting, breathing, etc. Playing a game requires knowledge of the rules that accompany the game, therefore it takes time to learn and understand them.

thats a pretty bad comparison because ns is a game, not a movie or an amusement park ride. multiplayer video games, albeit mostly visual like movies or rides, are more of a sport (in my opinion). but dont take this the wrong way; sports arent always about playing competetively to win and all that.

for example, me and a few friends of mine (theres usually about six of us) often go out to play soccer on this small field, and we like to have a few beers while playing and all that good stuff. anyways, its heaps fun, its good training (both physical and technical), but as you might expect, both teams still try to score goals and win.

edit: added the missing word "multiplayer"

Acknowledged. I'm still playing, still getting better, and most of all, still having fun . Seeing as this argument is over, I thought we should get back on topic.

Since skulking can be hard for new players, why not make a server plugin to give skulks an extra chance to survive? Any time a skulk was hit by an attack that would have caused it to die, instead it drops down to 1HP. This would work great against shotgunners, who wouldn't be able to kill you in one shot (this would also be a great new ability for NS2 BTW). If the skulk was hit subsequently after going down to 1HP, it would die normally, unless it went back to the hive to fully regen. It would be turned off at the start of the match, and this ability would only be given to skulks with negative kill/death ratios (you know, the 0-10 skulk that keeps getting himself blasted in that big room in faceoff...). What do people think of this idea?

I think this plug-in would make marines a lot less fun to play.

It makes shotguns quite annoying to play, but whatever. I think the real problem is that good marine still kills pub skulk, no matter if theres one more bullet to shoot with lmg, pistol or hmg. Mines would be underpowered since with cara one skulk could take 3 mines. I think the forwardspeed increase plugin has been the best suggestion so far, but it still offers only a temporary solution without really making skulking more accessible for new players.

NS has that plugin, it's called registration. And that's frustrating enough on it's own.