yah what it does it makes the skulks mouth stop from closing when doing the biting attack so you can see where your going and attcking. it makes killing hvy marines sooooooooo much easier.

btw this is the FIRST EVAR CUSTOM MODEL MADE FOR NS
IT WAS MADE BY:

WHISKAS

I need a host tho, the file is like 200kb big.

Meow

until you find a host, think you could email it to me?

chewdragon@attbi.com

hmmmm that sounds more like a cheat to me than a model... although a model is being used to do it... At least it does until Flayra says that it isn't.

QUOTE (Taz @ Nov 4 2002, 09:12 PM)

hmmmm that sounds more like a cheat to me than a model... although a model is being used to do it... At least it does until Flayra says that it isn't.

Heh. The skulks' mouth is a bit like the marines' muzzle flash, with how it gets in the way. You can't see a thing when firing full auto.

well theoretically its not a cheat, marines muzzle flash could easily changed or simply removed(dont dare email me or PM me asking how to do this) and besides it really hinders the effectiveness of the skulk, there are already console commands that let you get rid of the teeth altogether, this is just a more visually appealing way of doing it, the teeth still show and all the other animations are the same except the teeth dont close when you bite.

its better than running around like a blind rabies infected monkey

(skulks should transmit rabies to marines when they bite them )

You shouldn't throw around the word cheat like that. It is not a color model used for an aimbot or anything like that.

It does give advantage to the skulks, however.
Dunno, i guess it's borderlike. i don't think i'll bother. advanced hivesight makes enemies glow, and the mouth adds character.

It may not be a cheat, but it is an exploit. It takes 2 bites to kill a marine, and 2 bites doesn't take a long time at all. Making it any easier for them is... well... it could imbalance the game.

I guess I just don't see how it makes it easier.

It's hardly a cheat or an exploit. If it is, then getting new weapon models in CS/DoD/whatever is a cheat too. It won't be long before there are plenty of nice new custom models for us to grab, I'll bet.

It's very much an exploit.

I don't feel the need to defend that statement, as common sense does a good enough job. I can say, however, that I would never disable or replace the view model for bite so that I could skirt the tiny disadvantage of being blinded for a fraction of a second. If you want to do this, and can live with yourself, then so be it.

Are a skulk's eyes in its mouth? No.

Can *it* see what it's doing while biting something? Presumably.

-so why can't we?

(edited because punctuation is my friend)

Gameplay vs. realism. Gameplay wins. Besides, its eyes are on the side of its head. If you can think of a better way to represent vision with a dog-like extended snout without taking up half the available screen space (even when NOT biting), then I suggest you do so.

Also, it is NOT unusual in nature (yes, we're talking real-life here now) for predators to be blinded as they strike. For instance, a shark has a nictitating membrane that closes over its eyes when it bites to protect them.

** Please do not encourage this behavior, Molec. You should know better than that. **

Alas, r_drawviewmodel 0 gets rid of some other important information, like building/player health circles. It's something I usually use for an fps boost on my ailing computer, but I can't use it for NS.

*nods* Yup. The reason why none of that was fixed was that even running that command is considered by most in the dev team to be a cheat.

That's why I've got it set to a toggle. I put this in my autoexec.cfg:

alias teethon "r_drawviewmodel 1;bind c teethoff"
alias teethoff "r_drawviewmodel 0;bind c teethon"
bind c teethoff

QUOTE (Moleculor @ Nov 5 2002, 05:30 PM)

I personally dislike the 'eyes in teeth' thing myself (and even predicted that the first model ever made would be something that replaced the skulk's(oh, how I absolutely love that name, but that's a different story all together) teeth).

Yeah, thanks for gloating, Moleculor.

I guess there's not much we can do to stop this kind of customization, but don't kid yourselves about it not being an exploit. There can be no arguing that disabling the bite model makes it easier to kill.

And yes, it can have a rather large affect on gameplay. The bite model is the way it is for gameplay, as well as visual, reasons, to balance the skulks from being to powerful. The same reason some weapons cause splash damage to the user. The same reason carrying powerful weapons slows you down. In every game there is some weapon or some unit which has a drawback, to keep it from being to powerful. Live with it, deal with it, and learn how to work around it.

It is NOT the same thing as changing the gun model in CS, or swapping in a new marine skin. Those merely effect the VISUALl look of the game, and do not have an impact on gameplay.

And please, don't even get me started on the "realism" argument. Where did we say we were making a "FPS / RTS Science Fiction Realism Mod" ? Sorry, you want realism, you've come to the wrong place. On NS we have always strived for immersion, visual style, and fun over realism.

Yes, in NS, we have large Rhino like beasts which can climb ladders. Why? Because it makes for better gameplay. Yes, we have creatures with eyes in their mouths. Why? Because it feels more immersive, it's pretty damn cool, and it helps balance out the power of the bite as a weapon. I can't believe people even stop and think "Hey, my eyes are in my mouth" when trying to bite a chunk of flesh out of marines trying to splatter them with hot lead. Did Aliens Vs. Predator get as many people complaining about the fact that the alien also has eyes in it's mouth?

One question, if it's considered an exploit, why is it allowed? You said it yourself, there's no way to stop it, but you are most certainly wrong. The mod can set certain models to stay what they are. Nades in dod (i think the p_model) cannot be changed, at all. Not even a skin.

It can be done, and if the creators of the mod think it's an exploit, rather than a way to see wtf you're doing, they should speak up and do somethign accordingly. Steps can be taken to not permit things like this. Until then, I'd liek to see this released. As it stands now, the lag I get personally makes it almost impossible to bite anyone, and hell, I can't even see what I'm biting at anyway. This might give me a chance in hell, instead of no chance. Is people not being able to use a weapon functionally because of the model, balanced?

And lastly, the drawback of bite, is having to get oh so close to the guy. If you said all powerful weapons have their drawbacks, I'd like you to list the HMG drawbacks, cuz frankly, besides cost, I don't see one...

QUOTE (|0see3| @ Nov 5 2002, 11:06 PM)

If you said all powerful weapons have their drawbacks, I'd like you to list the HMG drawbacks, cuz frankly, besides cost, I don't see one...

The rather punishing reload time has to be a drawback. If an alien knows your clip's empty, you're dead.

I personally like the skulks' bite animation, and don't find it all that distracting. I'm just defending the people who don't see changing it as being an exploit, because I really don't see how it is. I don't find it any easier to kill when I have v_models switched off. it's easier to see your target through a bite than it is to see through a muzzle flash.

QUOTE (Relic25 @ Nov 5 2002, 04:43 PM)

It's very much an exploit. I don't feel the need to defend that statement, as common sense does a good enough job. I can say, however, that I would never disable or replace the view model for bite so that I could skirt the tiny disadvantage of being blinded for a fraction of a second. If you want to do this, and can live with yourself, then so be it.

yes i can live with myself.
besides if the team didnt want this type of model to be made they could have created a file consistency test for this V model whenevr you join a server. it would require more coding tho, and it would also dramtically decrease load times.
i dont care, if you dont want me to release this model, i won't
why do i not care?
because i already have this model and enjoy scores of 9-2 with a skulk
its all about me, me, me

QUOTE (whiskas @ Nov 5 2002, 11:50 PM)

besides if the team didnt want this type of model to be made they could have created a file consistency test for this V model whenevr you join a server. it would require more coding tho, and it would also dramtically decrease load times.

Good. Maybe this will happen then. I suspect the only reason why it hasn't happened yet is because no one on the dev team ever expected that people would be bitchy about the way it was made.

replacing that... is just outright against the nature of the game... soon people will probably exchange all their models with blue ugly wondermodels... that makes it impossible to hide, teammates yellow opponents blue, buildings green, alien structures pink..... now u have a wonderfull game without essence feelings deept...... so stop exchanging stuff that doesnt encurage teamplay.... the bite feature is probably for that to, then u need to have backup..... and btw... sharks (A VERY GOOD PREDATOR) is blind the moment it attacks... because it doesnt wanna get it eyes hurt.....!!!!! so stop whining... being blind while attacking is natural!

QUOTE

The rather punishing reload time has to be a drawback. If an alien knows your clip's empty, you're dead.

Ok, guys. You go and distract that marine until he's out of ammo. Than you tell me and I'll spit him to death *hehe*

Sure, boss! Semper Fi! GOGOGO! YEEEEEEEHAAAAAAA!

*RATATATATATAT**SPLASH**BANGBANGBANG**PLOPPLOPLOP*
Hello, guys? Is it already empty? Can you hear me? HELLO?!

QUOTE

sharks (A VERY GOOD PREDATOR) is blind the moment it attacks

Have you ever been attacked by a shark? It doesn't need to aim a second time! When the shark starts to attack, you no longer have a chance to escape. You can't tell me that someone who's been bitten by a shark can still jump around and aim a gun.

QUOTE

There can be no arguing that disabling the bite model makes it easier to kill.

Yep it does. And right so. Marines have very powerfull long range weapons, if something is able to come so close to him, so it can bite him, he DESERVES to die, unless he can save himself through his own skill, not through a disadvantage of his enemy. Also the bite blindness increases the effect of lag, which is especially annoying for melee attacks.
Once I was a skulk and found a single HA marine reloading his HMG. I attacked him, and normally he should have died. I bit him and he started to bunnyjump around. Through the combination of him jumping and me being blinded, he was able to reload and blast me to pieces.

QUOTE

because no one on the dev team ever expected that people would be bitchy about the way it was made.

Even a playtester was bitchy about it.

Why can't you just play a game because it's fun. And fun lies in the challenge, changing the bite model is taking away part of the challenge. Why not install an aimbot while we're at it? i mean it's oh so hard to hit those marines, and why don't we change those dark textures, what about a nice white colour, makes those aliens so much easier to spot, right ? Play the game like it was intended guys, the bite model is there not only because it looks cool, but because it balances it out. Everything takes practice, you can't just change things around because they're too hard for you. Oh and enjoy your lovely 9-2 score, because that's why we play the game right?

Y'all are taking this way too far now. I'm just sayin'.

It's only a model - he's not suddenly acquired OGC by using it, he doesn't have colour-coded skins, or anything silly like that... if it makes it easier for him to play then fine. I have some custom crosshairs that I find make aiming easier (though I only made them because the default is boring). Really, I'm just all in favour of customising a game to make it look more attractive or feel more "right" to me. Sure, sometimes that has knock-on effects on playability, but who in all honesty cares?

Who cares? How about the artists, modelers, animators, and coders who worked so hard and put forth such creative effort to make something, only to have it tossed out or over-ridden by someone just because it doesn't agree with them 100%. I guess all that counts for nothing. That's really too bad. Makes me not want to ever make another thing for anyone as far as gaming goes.

Fair enough. You're all proud of what you've created and so you should be. I think your models are fabulous - the only reason I edited a couple of skins was because I thought it would be fun to have chaps that look like my old 40K Space Marines wandering around. However, I don't think any of the DoD team mind people putting together new models, for example, and I think you should be pleased that people like the game enough to want to make new things for people to use, and possibly to enhance players' experiences.

(edited for dumb typos)

To start with, we aren't refering to the few marine skin changes and such, which have been done. We are talking about taking something which works one way by design, for visual and gameplay purposes, and disabling it. The ramifications of the bite model changes are much greater then simply having a red tinted marine running around in the game instead of a green one.

We would like to be supportive of people who want to make custom models and skins for NS. However, we have worked hard at getting the look and feel of the NS environment a certain way. We didn't just throw together a bunch of random crap into the game and call it done. We spent many painstaking hours, concepting and designing all of the models and textures, to insure that they all fit visually with one another and the NS world we were trying to create.

Anyone could come along, throw together a crappy model of a giant chicken with nipple rings and a battleaxe, and put it into the game. While that might be fun in Unreal tournament, something like that can ruin the atmosphere we have so carefully created in NS. We are just asking people to think about the custom models they are creating, and to try and insure that they are high quality and will not interfere with the atmosphere of NS.

I especially don't want to start seeing a bunch of gameplay altering models which are just kneejerk reactions to something in the game which someone percieves as frustrating, after a few times playing the game.

No one said the work of the NS-Team isn't excellent, relic25. But tastes are different. If someone wants to replace a model, so what? It's his loss, not yours. As long as it doesn't provide him with advantages over other players.

If the team says the bite animation is for balancing, I'll leave it as it is right now. I'd still ask the team to reconsider, because I think the bite is more frustrating than balancing.

QUOTE (Relic25 @ Nov 6 2002, 01:58 AM)

QUOTE (whiskas @ Nov 5 2002, 11:50 PM) besides if the team didnt want this type of model to be made they could have created a file consistency test for this V model whenevr you join a server. it would require more coding tho, and it would also dramtically increase load times. Good. Maybe this will happen then. I suspect the only reason why it hasn't happened yet is because no one on the dev team ever expected that people would be bitchy about the way it was made.

you guys have enuf problems with lag/load issues
file con tests will use up server resourses and raise ping for all players in the game evrytime someone wants to join.

i'm tempted to post a link to the model...
its so controversial tho
i even made a model that changes lurker bite animation

i'll just wait and see which way this discussion steers

i don't want to break the 'modellers code' and ruin my rep as a modeller in NS and DoD

just so u understand.

QUOTE (Gallig @ Nov 6 2002, 09:30 PM)

As long as it doesn't provide him with advantages over other players.

This is precisely the reason the model should not be changed. As has been said, the bite is immersive, yes -- but it's also BALANCING. Skulk is deadly to unupgraded marines already; removing the handicap of his viewmodel shifts the odds pretty heavily. This isn't altering the color of a spore cloud (which has been done) - it's changing a fundamental element of the gameplay. Personally, I hope Flay puts in model consistancy with all speed.

As a side note - sharks are effectively blind for the last 10 feet or so that they approach their target, eyes rolled back to protect against thrashing prey. Special glands in their snout pick up electrical signals released by the prey animal to direct it as it closes.

I don't consider this a cheat, but it's definitely an exploit. Realize that any skills you get while using these special binds or models will be thrown out the window in any competitive environment because they won't be allowed. Tournament rules don't allow custom binds and they'll enforce model consistency.

You can learn to play NS, or you can learn to play your own version of NS, it's your choice.

QUOTE (Relic25 @ Nov 6 2002, 11:43 AM)

Who cares? How about the artists, modelers, animators, and coders who worked so hard and put forth such creative effort to make something, only to have it tossed out or over-ridden by someone just because it doesn't agree with them 100%. I guess all that counts for nothing. That's really too bad. Makes me not want to ever make another thing for anyone as far as gaming goes.

Im Sorry, but that is a pretty stupid comment to make when your defending your statements.

Natural Selection was not made from scratch, Half-life models were altered, twisted, shrunk and grown, the engine was altered and the gameplay changed, but it is still a Half Life modification, so saying that artists and modelers, animators and coders are upset over this is like saying that Natural Selection is wrong in itself.

Just remember, you didnt make the engine, you altered it to fit your needs, just as those who play this game will alter it how they will.

it's there for balance. otherwise the skulk would dominate waaaaaaaay to easily.

QUOTE (Joker_Ni @ Nov 7 2002, 09:51 PM)

Natural Selection was not made from scratch, Half-life models were altered, twisted, shrunk and grown, the engine was altered and the gameplay changed, but it is still a Half Life modification, so saying that artists and modelers, animators and coders are upset over this is like saying that Natural Selection is wrong in itself.

Um...what? No halflife models touched the hands of the NS artists, thanks very much. There was no "altering, twisting" etc. of any halflife models. Every model and texture was created completely from scratch for Natural Selection.

And yeah, we are technically a "mod". But the amount of work Flayra has done to completely revamp the existing structure to something totally new begs the question, "at what point does a mod become it's own game?" All of the models, textures, sounds, music, etc., from the existing half life game have been completely replaced by our own.

Look around at the games that have been packaged and put on the shelves for sale. A majority of them licensed engines from other games. Half life itself was built on the Quake engine. Would you call Half Life just a modification?

uh oh, looks like the mod team will have truble with their consistency test.

consistency test usually checks size of mdl file, general dimensions of model, origins, along with attached skins.

consistency test checks animations as well (which was all i changed in this model)

however it's VERY EASY (easier than killing a blind baby with broken legs) to fool the consistency test when it comes to animations

cheats are essentially exploited exploits, whether it be exploits in code or graphical visuals.

i don't want to seem like an evil haxor who uses my skillz to foil the balance of this mod

note the model in question hasn't left my hard drive (yet)

im trying to make a decision based on your guys' arguments

you are welcome to bribe me with several cans of catfood (no liver flavour, me and my cat hate that stuff, however i would love to taste the 'fillet of onos' flavour)

The way I see it, it doesn't matter whether you release it or not, because in a week or two most likely a dozen more will be out. It's just a matter of time, all you would do by not releasing it is delay it. And most servers I've played on for HL on any mod have some sort of model restrictions to prevent exploiting with model replacements, I don't see how this would be hard to do for NS servers.

CONSISTANCY CHEACKS ARE **obscenity** IF THEY GET PUT ON I WILL NEVER PLAY AGAIN

Power-Line, mother warned you this would happen if you forgot to take your medication.

Slightly off-topic here, but when I first started CS, I had a Celeron 400, 1.2gb HDD and no 3D card. Well, I was virtually forced to use r_drawviewmodel 0 to try and keep my FPS above 10. Then I got a PC that could handle the game fine (75fps constant with v-sync on) but I just couldn't play with gun models on.

Why? I don't know. I think I find them distracting and just like it the way I played for so long. Now, when it comes to NS, I'd really love to play with models off, but I'm kind of forced to leave them on. It's quite annoying

QUOTE

CONSISTANCY CHEACKS ARE **obscenity** IF THEY GET PUT ON I WILL NEVER PLAY AGAIN

Brilliant. Absolutly brilliant. Unfortunatly for you, no offense or anything, but I don't really care if you do play.

As for this topic.

whiskas, if you were trying to create a fire, you've dont a very good job. This one's getting out of hand. Everyone step back and take a deep breath, and then continue the fight in PMs if you want.