High skill cap but noob friendly Options

[RisingSun]

Hopefully the spill over from the lockdown thread will come here.

I personally love the high skill cap in NS1 and hop NS2 will be along the same lines. Problem was new players being overwhelmed when they first would play. Servers themselves kind of helped this out by having very different player base.

Some servers were populated with newer players that tended to keep the experienced players away due to the lack of teamwork and skill.

Other servers you would almost enter the damn game with a 0-10 ratio if your skills were mediocre... I loved it!

But we need a way that doesn't rely on server communities. With the lack of a single playermode we lose the offline training or base level competent player. We did have access to the very well done field manual (NS texted base instruction booklet on game play). It was great for visual learner but leaves the auditory and tactile learners in the wind =(

a video tutorial would be cool but even better a simulator for each lifeform, marine, and comm would be awesome. I'm sure the community can come up with something so as to not impede on the creation of all of our dream game =)

so in conclusion: skill cap high, but a way to raise the base level players skill before they hit the multiplayer enviroment. Ideas?

[Bacillus]

Possible tutorials, inuitive mechanics, good community support, good feedback from the decisions and mechanics used. A bigger community wouldn't hurt either, otherwise you're going to end up playing with too dramatic skill differences.

At some point everyone has to start thinking themselves though, otherwise a game like NS isn't simply going to cut. There isn't that much you can do if a skulk decides to run headfirst into a long hallway 10 times in a row.

[Sirot]

I think the best way to make NS2 more new player friendly is two do things in addition to the obvious (tutorials, intuitive game design, community support). Extend the early game and give players an opportunity to play a support role to watch more experienced players while still contributing. Extending the early game is important because there are less mechanics in play during that time. This allows new players to focus on those mechanics and not be overwhelmed by the breadth of the game. Adding support roles is a bit tricky because the marines don't have a real support class like the gorge (the game should be encourage players to become gorges), so I am sort of stumped there.

RE: Bacillus
Ya, players need to be shown how to properly play a role. That's why I think support opportunities are important. As an alternative or an addition to that, maybe the game should record successful kills by team mates and you are a shown a clip of it when you are die before you go into spectator mode.

This post has been edited by Sirot: Oct 3 2009, 06:29 PM

[a_civilian]

I expect that 1-hive leap will make skulk much more accessible - no more needing to know the map in order to get kills in the early game. I'm a little worried about how much room the new skulk will have for skill though. Leap itself is not a particularly deep ability, and it could remove much of the intelligent play that was previously needed to close on a marine. Combine this with the removal of bunnyhopping, and I don't see very many ways for a skulk to excel.

[RisingSun]

Thought bunny hop was still a go? Just not for marines. I would be very disapointed to lose bhopping.

[MuYeah]

Yeah, any source for the no bunnyhopping? Last I heard it was being considered for maybe skulk only.

[dux]

You can still bunny as a skulk.

[Sirot]

You can still bunny as a skulk.

: O

Is it being kept the exact same or has it been modified at all?

This post has been edited by Sirot: Oct 3 2009, 07:42 PM

[Bacillus]

: O

Is it being kept the exact same or has it been modified at all?

I'm 99% certain it's going through changes. Nobody wants it exactly the same. The whole discussion on the forums has been can it be preserved at all, not whether it should stay as it is.

I'm all confused now, in a positive way. Most of all I want to see how this escalates from this point.

This post has been edited by Bacillus: Oct 3 2009, 08:26 PM

[Sirot]

I'm 99% certain it's going through changes. Nobody wants it exactly the same. The whole discussion on the forums has been can it be preserved at all, not whether it should stay as it is.

I am honestly curious on how it will turn out in NS2 and how much of a net speed benefit it will provide.

[pSyk0mAn]

Bunny hop without aircontrol or something similar, which enables different movement patterns isn't worth much imho.
So I'm also curious how it will be included exactly.

[tjosan]

This makes me happy. Now to think about getting a new computer to actually play ns2.

[Epiclanding]

Yeah, NS took a while to get use to, and you probably got killed 24/7 while trying to get used to it. I think adding a tutorial would be a good idea, but if we had to work things out again i wouldn't mind

[Atone]

I think a simple tutorial (even if it's a video tutorial made by a community member during beta and made official by UWE) that covers all of the main points of the game would do wonders.

Another idea would be to make the server list support tags which represent the skill level of a server. Server admins could be allowed to label their servers as "Newb" "Casual" or "Pro". This way, players would be able to easily find games within their skill level and learn the game without getting destroyed by 7 year NS1 vets. You could even throw in an "Any" option for servers that would rather not have one specific skill level and for players who would like to test their skill versus "Pro" players without joining a "Pro" server and pissing everyone off with their newbiness.

Granted, server admins could label servers in their names, I think it'd be best to not leave it up to the community.

[TempesT487]

A tutorial maybe, but it should be short. The best way to encourage say, a new marine, would be to include plenty of visual and audio cues as to what they should be doing. For example, their squad members would highlight when they join, a short message down the bottom of the screen could say "Link up with your squad.". When you are next to an RT being built, a little icon could appear on the RT with a wrench and a message reading "Hold E to help build."

Eventually the game will turn these off as you keep playing, so you know how to play. Also, whenever loading a map, hints can be shown down the bottom much like the TF2 ones. These could read different things about aliens and marines etc.

[RisingSun]

A tutorial maybe, but it should be short. The best way to encourage say, a new marine, would be to include plenty of visual and audio cues as to what they should be doing. For example, their squad members would highlight when they join, a short message down the bottom of the screen could say "Link up with your squad.". When you are next to an RT being built, a little icon could appear on the RT with a wrench and a message reading "Hold E to help build."

Eventually the game will turn these off as you keep playing, so you know how to play. Also, whenever loading a map, hints can be shown down the bottom much like the TF2 ones. These could read different things about aliens and marines etc.

Really like this idea, almost like those "helpful hints" you get when you start up a program that you can toggle on and off. Wonder how hard it would be to set up. Nothing i would look for in beta of alpha, but maybe main release?

I would be willing to brainstorm a noob map that runs through each alien ability/structure showing you the advantages and a marine side with all the weapons laid somewhere. The comm would be hard :/ But i am sure some great modder could tackle this with ease.

"The server icon idea"

Like this too. I wonder if there could be a governing body over such a thing such as a CAL:NS but for server rank. It would strengthen server communities and promote better server admins. Plus would give me a good idea where to play, When i cant aim for nothing jump on that noob server muahha, then feeling masochistic jump on the vet server :)

[Tha]

I reckon there should just be gameplay videos, like how a skulk should kill a marine, or effective ways.

Tutorials are lame these days l4d had a great system, say when your playing a skulk and your low on hp it will say do that, or if you die a as a skulk it shall say "try not running head on to a marine, instead hit them from corners in the wall they cant see you from, showing a small video of a skulk leaping off the wall onto a marine below and getting the kill.

Or as a fade whilst your gestating it has basics such as blink in with alternative fire(m2) swipe the most vulnerable and get out straight after( on the side showing a video of a fade slashing apart the squad leader then going out before a marine shoots it.

Same thing for the onos. should repeat this about 15 times

Sometimes poeple just dont seem to get it, thats why-althought options to turn it off are necessary.

[steppin'razor]

Yeah, any source for the no bunnyhopping? Last I heard it was being considered for maybe skulk only.

The tweet was like 'we are changing to to something that should please everybody'

[Bacillus]

RE: Bacillus
Ya, players need to be shown how to properly play a role. That's why I think support opportunities are important. As an alternative or an addition to that, maybe the game should record successful kills by team mates and you are a shown a clip of it when you are die before you go into spectator mode.

I think every role except fade and onos has a more supportive side, people just either refuse or don't realize to use it. For example very few people stick to marine base when the round starts, only some go capping. On aliens you rarely see healgorges or sporelerks and most of the time nobody uses parasite or bites res. None of those require spectacular game knowledge or twitch skill to be performed at basic level.

I'm just not sure whether people just want to get frag happy and avoid support duties, or is it a learning curve and understanding issue. I've played games for ages, so for me adapting to a new game and finding the different ways of gameplay is a relatively quick and painless process. Due to the quick adaptation I've got very little idea how accessible the support duties are for a casual player with only a little gaming background. So, do you think people realize the possibilities, but prefer not to use them, or is it just a matter of guidance?

[Chris0132]

Leap as the alt fire for bite, area effect/autoaim for bites (so you don't have to actually be dead centre to hit, using a melee weapon in first person is really not fun without area effect, the only game I know that does it well is dark messiah and they have damage being done all along the arc) and general control improvements would help. Less stuff you have to memorise or practise basically, more focus on the actual fighting rather than suppementary skills like being able to switch weapons real fast.

Also, more fighting styles, being able to buy your own guns presumably means we can all use shotguns if we want so that would help, and I can't imagine that a flamethrower could ever be hard to use, but less reliance on reflex stuff would help players find a way into the game.

In the sense of general noob friendliness the game needs to be more stable, when I played the way to win was to be winning at the start, you got the occasional unexpected turnaround but generally if you are winning to begin with you will continue to do better and better, and it wasn't much fun being the losing team because you simply can't fight the higher lifeforms/marines with the lower ones, so some way of enforcing a degree of parity between the sides would be nice, regardless of the state of play. Capturing the map should be something you have to do because it encourages people to play across a wide terrain, and that's fun, but when capturing the map basically cripples the opposition, that kinda sucks, because they have no fun. I'd prefer it if capturing the map didn't give you an advantage as much as it just made it possible to wipe the enemy out, as in you need to progress across the map and clear out the enemy to win, but holding more than half the map shouldn't make it easier to do so. A good team should be able to beat a worse team steadily back, but at no point should the worse team start losing equipment or the ability to fight back. Stranglehold victories suck. From both points of view, it's no fun winning if you didn't do so by fighting, and it's no fun losing because you couldn't play.

In the vein of intuitiveness, less stuff to memorise generally, indications of where leads where in the world would be nice, the NS1 maps could be a bit labryinthine, although I could usually find my way around using the map. It'd be nice though if we had some sort of sign system, or things like the coloured wall lines from the opening of half life, in the form of power cables leading to the power generator room or whatever, stuff like that. Also path waypointing, unreal tournament 3 does this brilliantly with a path showing the actual route to a location, not just the destination itself, I can navigate any map easily from the get go using that.

A way to introduce people to commanding would be good, the mutliple commander system is a prime idea for this because you can get the experience without the pressure, hints and things which pop up describing what to do would be the icing on that cake. On the subject of the commander though, some things should be automated, marines should get warnings when something comes under attack and where without the comm telling them about it, enemy territory quake wars does this quite well by automatically handing out instructions to perform tasks like blowing up enemy turrets, and it's a lot more reliable than having to rely on the commander.

Oh yeah and points. Give people points for doing things, doesn't matter what it is but get the game to tell them they're good for doing it. Shoot a skulk but don't get the kill? Get a point for the assist. Help build a structure? Points for that. Weld someone? Points. The points don't have to matter, but having the game tell you you're doing good is nice, it's annoying to not get any acknowledgement because someone else took the last 10 hp off the enemy or because you spent all your time capping res nodes rather than spawncamping the aliens. Bonus if you give points proportionally, so capping res nodes when you're low on them gives you more points, or defending a structure gives you more points. Something to help players gauge the importance of specific activities.


This post has been edited by Chris0132: Oct 4 2009, 10:43 AM