On Learning Curves, A issue of communication and transperency. Options

[Radix]

Xensity

I played against a couple xen players a few months ago (on a bad pc, dueling scouts) and held up fine. I wasn't dominating or getting domm'd. I think they had a few more kills just because they play more, but with the amount that they play, and the fact that I don't play the game -at all- they should have wiped the floor with me.

This post has been edited by Radix: Oct 20 2008, 06:27 PM

[aNytiMe]

I don't consider knowing where to aim a rocket/sniper rifle, choosing the right class for a job, knowing when to take and hold the high ground, and knowing when to press an attack "luck" so much as "knowing how to play the game".

The only thing that is up to the player's control is positioning of players relative to teammates and enemies. However, these positions can be advantageous or death traps depending on divine intervention. It really is a coin toss. Knowing where to send rockets/stickies/crosshairs takes no more than a month to learn, after that it is mostly luck.

That's not how I play it, and any team that does that gets killed hard in scrims. Most of the scrims I play are crits off anyway, and when that's gone, there's no more "luck". The game also gets more boring though.

We had two soldiers and a demo and we took turns "xenociding" into center of enemy mass. Needless to say, crits won many games against the best teams at the time of shotgun shootout. Also, heavy crits are lawn mowers.

Turning crits off makes the game run by scouts.

[Align]

I think his point was that it's no more luck than in any other game. Happening to go the right way and come up behind the enemy team is luck, no matter if it's TF2 or Counterstrike.

[locallyunscene]

I think his point was that it's no more luck than in any other game. Happening to go the right way and come up behind the enemy team is luck, no matter if it's TF2 or Counterstrike.

Well that and you're actively trying to flank the enemy. It's not "oh look I was magically teleported behind the enemy", but "the enemy is engaged over there so I'm going to use this alternate path to get behind them". The enemy now has the choice to devote resources to cover his flank, or press the attack and risk incurring loses. Of course this is at the expense of your own resources. Calling it divine intervention is like saying "that Terran player got lucky because sieged his tanks on the cliff."

This post has been edited by locallyunscene: Oct 20 2008, 10:43 PM

[Radix]

If I'm reading Anytime correctly, the point being made is that a given tactical or strategic choice can be advantageous or disadvantageous depending on randomluck.

Whereas in counterstrike- despite how boring I find the game personally, you do have to pay attention as the state of the game is constantly in flux, while behaving according to predictable rulesets such as "if I'm a long way away from an awp, and out in the open, I will die".

[aNytiMe]

If I'm reading Anytime correctly, the point being made is that a given tactical or strategic choice can be advantageous or disadvantageous depending on randomluck.

That.

You're basically making a coin toss in TF2 - heads or tails. Heads you throw your invul too early. Tails you throw your invul at the right time and nullify the demo stickies. This exists in SC also. If you're in a tvp and you are feeling ballsy, you're going to do a 3fac all-in. Heads, toss goes dt and rolls you, tails toss goes dumb unit and you roll him.

[locallyunscene]

You're basically making a coin toss in TF2 - heads or tails. Heads you throw your invul too early. Tails you throw your invul at the right time and nullify the demo stickies. This exists in SC also. If you're in a tvp and you are feeling ballsy, you're going to do a 3fac all-in. Heads, toss goes dt and rolls you, tails toss goes dumb unit and you roll him.

Sure, that's the case the first round/match, but it isn't luck the next few rounds. Again this is no different from any other game.

[Bacillus]

I played against a couple xen players a few months ago (on a bad pc, dueling scouts) and held up fine. I wasn't dominating or getting domm'd. I think they had a few more kills just because they play more, but with the amount that they play, and the fact that I don't play the game -at all- they should have wiped the floor with me.

Most likely the metagame revolves a lot more on the team synergy and such than 1on1 scout mirror.

Nevertheless they should be dominating you on ns logic IMHO. Individual potential is an essential part of the NS as long as it doesn't take too much away from some decisionmaking and teamwork.

[Flayra]

Interesting thread.

I fully recognize that NS1 was extremely difficult to pick up and enjoy and we are addressing this big time for NS2. I think it will be much more accessible and with at least as much depth. Here are some specifics on how we're doing this:

- Waypoints show players how to get to their destination, not just what their destination is. It will draw arrows showing you which door/vent to go through next to get to your final destination (using AI pathfinding).

- The Commander and non-Comms are more decoupled so they can each be more effective on their own. Of course the best teams will have everyone working together, but Commanders will be able to be effective with braindead non-Comms (through the use of AI builder bots/nymphs and spell-like abilities) and the ability for marines to buy their own weapons/equipment from armories.

- The maps are much smaller, denser and more logically laid out. Instead of a sprawling network of halls and non-rooms, maps are made up of 6-10 rooms, each with a "landmark" (lighting, custom props, theme) to help players characterize it easily. This should also make the maps simple enough to navigate that we can get rid of the minimap, ala TF2.

- All weapons and alien abilities especially have an obvious function when you use them and should be learnable without reading anything or asking anyone anything.

- Lots more.

[Voodo_HUN]

dude, u just admitted that NS2 will be officically ######, no offense. ur just making another FPS game.
"The maps are much smaller, denser and more logically laid out." = 10 years old dummies who play WOW all day long. damn, make people use their intelligence.
listen to competitive players a bit more, not pubstars, please

This post has been edited by Voodo_HUN: Oct 21 2008, 07:47 PM

[Vision]

- Waypoints show players how to get to their destination, not just what their destination is. It will draw arrows showing you which door/vent to go through next to get to your final destination (using AI pathfinding).

Please make the waypointing so that i can turn it off if I don't need it as the waypoints just take space on the screen and no one even uses them in competitive play.

- The Commander and non-Comms are more decoupled so they can each be more effective on their own. Of course the best teams will have everyone working together, but Commanders will be able to be effective with braindead non-Comms (through the use of AI builder bots/nymphs and spell-like abilities) and the ability for marines to buy their own weapons/equipment from armories.

I have nothing smart to say about this atm. With the guys on the field buying their own weapons we could probably see stupid combinations with 50% of the team blasting their way with grenade launchers, this would also just leave even less stuff for the commander to do with AI builders and all.

- The maps are much smaller, denser and more logically laid out. Instead of a sprawling network of halls and non-rooms, maps are made up of 6-10 rooms, each with a "landmark" (lighting, custom props, theme) to help players characterize it easily. This should also make the maps simple enough to navigate that we can get rid of the minimap, ala TF2.

I have to disagree with this one. The maps in NS1 are just perfect in size and complexity. Probably every person who is playing the game or ever played the game knows the maps and if not, can use the minimap to see where the commander is asking him to go.
Will there still be names for places in maps? With the removal of the minimap you would have to come up with weird names for places on your own to guide the players and to inform your team about what is happening on the map.

- All weapons and alien abilities especially have an obvious function when you use them and should be learnable without reading anything or asking anyone anything.

Some people have trouble understanding that the bilebomb infact does not kill marines but that is probably the only problem in this area.

*Ninjaedit*

How am i supposed to know where all my teammates are at if i have no minimap?

This post has been edited by Vision: Oct 21 2008, 07:58 PM

[w0dk4]

oh yeah the professional gamers moaning already..

I must admit, I find Team Fortress 2 to be too simple but Valve is slowly fixing that by implementing more interesting weapons.
But I think Flayra has an important point here about map complexity.

Everytime I play a new NS map, sometimes I would sigh and try to get a grasp of the map, but often I just disconnect because at least to me, its not really THAT fun to get to know a new map. I still find new vents/hiding spots on pretty "old" ns maps even though I have played them like 100x times.

So the question is, who and what benefits from more simple maps?
Pretty much everyone. Experienced players can better rely on noobs to know the map. Since experienced players always know the maps pretty good, it doesnt make a difference if the map is a little complex or not. In the end, the outcome of a game relies (or should rely!) on teamwork.

Of course its always cool to show noobs that awesome hidden vent, or plainly owning other noobs by superior map knowledge.
But then we can also rename this game into "NS: Discovery. Who finds the vents first?".

[locallyunscene]

Everytime I play a new NS map, sometimes I would sigh and try to get a grasp of the map, but often I just disconnect because at least to me, its not really THAT fun to get to know a new map. I still find new vents/hiding spots on pretty "old" ns maps even though I have played them like 100x times.

So the question is, who and what benefits from more simple maps?
Pretty much everyone. Experienced players can better rely on noobs to know the map. Since experienced players always know the maps pretty good, it doesnt make a difference if the map is a little complex or not. In the end, the outcome of a game relies (or should rely!) on teamwork.

I like the epic twisty-turny corridors of NS alot and love the fact I can find new areas to use when playing. That alone isn't worth keeping the style, and I think the landmark rooms will feel epic in their own right and wp paths will mostly negate the need of a HUD minimap. I hope the devs planning on keeping the "map" map though because it's useful for many things and key to a marine's autonomy from the comm. A marine needs to be able to look a the map and determine his objectives if the comm isn't there strategically.

[Align]

I like the minimap, at least for the marine side. Gives a feeling of technology as well as reminding you of the RTS aspect.

[SentrySteve]

The more I read about NS2 the more I wonder if a commander position is even necessary. What's the point of being a comm in NS2? Is it any fun? Is there actually any strategy? Is it deep enough where there's a difference between a crappy one and a good one?

I would think that smaller maps (less rooms, less hallways) would inherently limit the strategies. Less places to do a stealth / ninja phase, less areas to siege from, less resource nodes to capture and pressure, the list goes on and on. It would suck to be an alien, see that hive "X" is under siege, and know the only possibly way that could happen is because they're in room "Y."

Marines pick their own weapons now, which I don't mind at all as it was just one more baby-sitting duty the comm did next to dropping meds and ammo. I also know that the dev's are against the comm having a physical hand in the battle, like dropping damage spells, so how many different varieties of scanner sweep, or other support spells, can they come up with?

Hopefully they're able to add meaningful duties and abilities to the commander's role. Smaller, more simple maps, combined with reducing the tasks required of the role* make it seem that the role is going to be incredibly boring.


*not necessarily a bad thing. I'm all for removing weapon drops. If we can remove med/ammo drops for the comm's role as well, or have some automated system for it, there will at least be room for some significant support abilities.

[triggahappy]

True, but there isn't a large difference between an experienced player and an experienced player. Crits and other luck factors play the game for you.

Bottom line: If xensity can be a top3 team in a popular game, game doesn't take/have a lot of skill. I've learned everything there is to learn about the soldier class in about a month and gained perfect proficiency in 3 months. This isn't my idea of a game that has a high skill ceiling. To put that in perspective, I've been playing SC for about 8 years and I still occasionally get so balled by some Korean that it makes me want to cry.

lol

I put "other luck factors" there for a reason. Another overwhelming gameplay hole in TF2 is the factor of being the right class at the right time, or having a rocket/sticky/sniper crosshairs in the right place. Getting a scout to fluke out and flank the enemy medic also plays a role. In 2fort, having one soldier and a demo rocket up to the battlements at the right time wins the game, and at other time forces the attackers to regroup based on when exactly the attacking team got their kills.

You won't believe how many scrims I won by spamming rockets down a hallway/corridor and getting 50 instant crit kills. TF2 is the only game where throwing yourself at the enemy and hoping for a lucky critical is a valid winning tactic.

lol

I don't consider knowing where to aim a rocket/sniper rifle, choosing the right class for a job, knowing when to take and hold the high ground, and knowing when to press an attack "luck" so much as "knowing how to play the game".

That's not how I play it, and any team that does that gets killed hard in scrims. Most of the scrims I play are crits off anyway, and when that's gone, there's no more "luck". The game also gets more boring though.

lol


Anyways, I guess Pandemic is winning every single TF2 tournament cause of luck amirite?

[Sirot]

- Waypoints show players how to get to their destination, not just what their destination is. It will draw arrows showing you which door/vent to go through next to get to your final destination (using AI pathfinding).

That is excellent since I recently rented Unreal Tournament 3 and honest to god didn't know where I should of went. It had a similar system, albeit very simple since it only shows you the path from spawn to objective. But it did the trick and I was capable of being effective on a map quite quickly.

- The Commander and non-Comms are more decoupled so they can each be more effective on their own. Of course the best teams will have everyone working together, but Commanders will be able to be effective with braindead non-Comms (through the use of AI builder bots/nymphs and spell-like abilities) and the ability for marines to buy their own weapons/equipment from armories.

This is an interesting change. At the same time a lot of NS' charm came from the fact that the commander was in fact a commander who played a major hand in strategy of the overall team. A shotgun rush would be only possible if a commander decides it is a good idea. At the same time, having a skilled commander with pants on head marines is not fun. The situation in reverse ain't charming either.


What about the infrastructure of the aliens? Specifically, their structure building?

[Hawkeye]

- Waypoints show players how to get to their destination, not just what their destination is. It will draw arrows showing you which door/vent to go through next to get to your final destination (using AI pathfinding).

Wicked. Sounds cool, though from a programmer standpoint, don't know how one would approach that without some sort of static mapping technique.

- The Commander and non-Comms are more decoupled so they can each be more effective on their own. Of course the best teams will have everyone working together, but Commanders will be able to be effective with braindead non-Comms (through the use of AI builder bots/nymphs and spell-like abilities) and the ability for marines to buy their own weapons/equipment from armories.

I definitely like the idea that the comm doesn't have to micromanage everything. Of course, as I'm sure you realize, there's a scale here. Some people like to have absolute control over certain aspects, and it's important to note that these features should be toggleable. As already mentioned, to allow marines to take whatever weapons they wish has 'abuse' written all over it. If not abuse, complete depletion of resources because some rambo marine won't listen to his commander and runs off with grenade launcher only to get himself killed every 30 seconds.

I assume the commander can control how the weapon distribution works. Perhaps you could toggle an armory to do one of several modes:

Mode 1) Free distribution, all marines can take any weapon researched from an armory at any time, resources allowing.
Mode 2) Limited distribution, commander sets the amount of weapons of choice chosen by marines. Resources are taken accordingly upon 'purchase'. Once the number reaches zero, marines can no longer 'buy' weapons from the armory until the amount is again updated by the commander.
Mode 3) Selected distribution, commander determines which players from a list will have free distribution or limited distribution from that armory, and only those marines can interface with the armory to purchase weapons.

So in a small game in which your marine team is of 3 people, might seem more prudent to use Mode 1, while in a larger game, you'd see more of Mode 2 and Mode 3 for example.

- The maps are much smaller, denser and more logically laid out. Instead of a sprawling network of halls and non-rooms, maps are made up of 6-10 rooms, each with a "landmark" (lighting, custom props, theme) to help players characterize it easily. This should also make the maps simple enough to navigate that we can get rid of the minimap, ala TF2.

Good for combat mode (if there is combat mode for ns2) and for games with few players, but I don't think that large maps are entirely bad for natural selection. Might be annoying for some players (and for those players, there will be smaller maps on other servers), but I personally prefer being able to sneak in to an alien hive and make a sneak attack because we didn't meet any resistance on the way there. Having a warzone is an attractive idea too, but I don't think that should be the only style of play.

- All weapons and alien abilities especially have an obvious function when you use them and should be learnable without reading anything or asking anyone anything.

It's my personal opinion that weapons and alien abilities were fairly clear in ns1. Even 'webbing' took me 30 seconds to understand fully. I think it's enough to write it up in a wiki and give them a site link for information on gameplay. For that matter, don't dumb down weapons for the general audience.

- Lots more.

Look forward to it.

[Bacillus]

I don't fully understand the smaller maps, at least for learning purposes. The 'c' map has everything you need, except the route. Now you've got the route too.

At least I feel much more uncomfortable on games like WoW and DotA, since you'll need to know most of the classes to be effective. That takes hundreds of hours of gamaplay to learn the skill sets of each class and character, not to speak of the item combos. On NS on the other hand you've got 3 hives, some RTs and a MS. The rest is more or less indifferent for the very core gameplay. It takes me maximum of 15 minutes to get the basic grasp of a map and yet probably years to master every manouvre and timing there is.

I can't see the smaller maps being a good thing for the RTS elements in general. The map control isn't most likely going to be as effective, since the distances are really short. There aren't most likely going to be as many timings, route selections, risks and ways to spread on the map. I just hope they're getting replaced with something great, since learning to understand and control the game flow has been one of the greatest things in NS for me.

Of course who knows what can be stacked small maps, but 6-10 rooms sounds really scary to me. On quick count Veil has 15+ rooms and probably roughly 5-10 more areas between the actual rooms.

[Narcil]

it seems to me that u guys are simply taking everything that made NS unique and making it more mainstream so that it appeals to a wider audience.

NS was good because it was complex, it was good because it was hard to master, etc

it seems like the this is gonna turn out as a normal fps/rts game that will attract some attention and then ppl will move onto other games.