Unknown Worlds Entertainment

Summary: Use "power cells" that can be carried between power socket locations in a map by marines to trigger effects like lighting changes, door activation/deactivation, machine noises, pumps/drain activation to change liquid levels, etc. Allow aliens to destroy cells but not sockets, allowing battles over the activation of the effects. Allow power sockets to be grouped so that multiple marines may need to carry power cells to a location to activate a map effect, enhancing cooperation on the marine team.

Analysis of current gameplay with the welder / reason for development of this new item: Creative uses of the welder have come up several times as a topic in the mapping forum, and I think many players would like to see map designs become more versitile. Each of the ideas in the summary has been brought up as a possible use for welders (along with many others). One limitation of the welder from a mapmaker's perspective, however, iis the pay once, use infinite times nature of the weapon. Since a welder doesn't have any sort of ammunition or recharge time, a marine has unlimited uses for the 10 resource cost of the weapon. This means that everything that can be permanently welded to the marines' advantage has a potential combined cost of 10 resources (if the marine holding the welder doesn't die or if the welder is always picked up by a teammate after the marine holding it dies).

The welder is also a tool that becomes available very early in the game (22 res for spawn + 25 for armory + 10 for welder = 57 res, less than the starting total), so one or more rambos can potentially sprint to an area the aliens haven't covered yet and weld items shut in the early game. This rewards a rush mentality to cover as much area as possible because there is a permanent advantage to be gained that can outwiegh the cost of a single marine death--it's an attractive gamble if the weld is permanent, which it doesn't have to be (which I address next).

Since the resource cost for a welder is so low and more resources aren't required to maintain or reuse a welder, it's desirable to make any significant effect of a welder reversible. There are currently two possible solutions to this problem, and a third could potentially be added by changing the func_weldable entity:

• give the result of the welder limited health, allowing it to be destroyed -- this is a permanent effect because the func_weldable doesn't toggle in the current code.
  
• couple the result of the welder with a button, allowing the effect to be toggled -- e.g. weld a bar off a door, then open and close the door from the button.
  
• change the code to allow weldables to toggle, so that a weld can be broken and fixed multiple times. (as a level designer, I'd really like to see this added as a flag to func_weldable)
  

The potential problem with the above solutions, IMHO, is the inability of the marines to regain the advantage in the first case, and the lack of additional resources cost required by the marines to regain an advantage in the latter two.

As a map designer, I would like to have the abliity to allow commanders to make a tradeoff between spending resources on marine unit improvements and spending to enhance map functionality. If commanders have the option to "buy" map changes one change at a time, I believe it will enhance the marine experience as teams decide whether they want to win using their own tech or by gradually morphing the map to suit their purposes. The concept of securing strategic power cell points encourages the hold-and-advance squad stategy that Natural Selection hopes to promote for the marine team. Under the current welder model, there is no reward for holding a permanent weld point (e.g. Sewer Vestibule's vent to Main Hold in Caged), and a breakable weld point partially removes the effectiveness of a choke point once it's been comprimised (e.g. the vent weld in Aft Junction on Bast).

I would also like the marines to be able to remove cells so that they can decide to change locations without fully abandoning their resources -- this is analogous to the recycling of buildings.

How the power cells would work in game: Power cells would be another item in slot #2 like the welder and mines--each marine can carry a limited number of cells (to be decided in playtesting, could be 1 cell per marine). Cells would be dropped by the comm within the armory radius or within the radius of a new building type in packs (number in a pack to be decided in playtesting, possibly but not necessarily equal to carry limit). The cost of cells should be agreed upon early in testing so that level designers know how prolific they will be. I'd suggest a cost of between 5 and 20 resources, placing their cost in a similar range to that of mines and the welder. The physical size of the cell and the number carried per marine should probably be scaled according to this value.

Cells would be set into one of several different socket models available to map makers (wall, floor, and standalone mounts). If a marine selects a cell as his current weapon and hits +use or +attack when pointing at an empty socket, the cell is placed into the socket and removed from the marine's inventory. If a marine is not already carring the upper limit of cells, he can remove a cell from a socket by pressing +use again to carry it to another socket. If a marine has power cells selected as his current weapon, hitting +attack should pick up a cell from a socket unless the marine is at the carry limit.

The perferred pickup order for cells would need to be determined in playtesting, but they should be given higher autopickup priority than the pistol when they are picked up off the ground to match other slot 2 items. The marine should be able to pick up a cell from a socket even if slot 2 isn't the current weapon slot, and should not automatically switch weapons when removing a cell from a socket. If a marine isn't eligible to carry the cell, it should remain in the socket with a "use denied" noise to indicate that the marine can't grab the cell.

Multiple sockets can be joined together in groups to power a single effect, varying the cost and number of marine trips required to change the map. Cells would be clearly visible while in sockets so that both teams can see if the socket is occupied. Socketed cells should be brighter than the surrounding map to aid this visibility. Aliens can damage cells that are in sockets or dropped on the ground -- each cell will have hit points determined in playtesting. If an alien destroys a cell in a socket, the socket is effectively emptied and resets. The sockets themselves should be invulnerable, allowing marines the opportunity to reclaim sockets in areas under alien control.

Differences between this system and the welder: The welder is a buy once, infinite use tool, but cells would be a pay-per-use solution. Each time the commander faces a decision about a map enhancement, he is given three options based on his evaluation of priorities -- spend more resources to enable the effect, trade one effect for another by moving cells, or ignore the effect in favor of unit upgrades, buildings, and weapons. The middle possiblity isn't possible under the current system.

One marine working solo can weld every point on the map. Using power cells, a map designer can decide how many trips marines must make from the cell drop area to sockets once the carry limit has been decided... it would be more efficient for marines to work as a team carrying multiple cells to a point in a single trip than for a single marine to make multiple trips. In addition, if cells and welders are both useful in a given room, marines with both types of loadout would want to coordinate since both weapons occupy slot 2.

Elements that would have to be added to Natural Selection (exact specification open to discussion):

A new point entity for mappers, team_powersocket, with the following fields:

• angle
  
• model type (dropdown list - floor, wall, standalone)
  
• target (sends on signal when filled, off signal when emptied)

In addition, the team_powersocket should cooperate properly with multisource

A new weapon type, weapon_powercell, with the following special properties:

• attack only functions when pointing at a socket, and plugs in/removes the cell from the socket
  
• changes the functionality of +use key on team_powersocket when equipped to load/unload cell from inventory to socket
  
• can be damaged when not being carried by a marine (subject to melee damage, too, unlike mines), has static maximum hitpoints -- disappears in puff of smoke when killed)

This post has been edited by XP-Cagey: Mar 15 2003, 05:22 PM

Marines are no mules.
And the "buy once weld infinite" effect is hoax.
- Welders are Marines Lost item number 1.
- Welders cost much time you could spend in attacking/building too.
- To weld you need 2 ppl defending the welder or you take a high risk in loosing it.

I agree that func_weldable needs aditions (multiple weldable , Stay on weld ,cooperative weldable).
Imagine a func weldable that can toggle multiple times... This can turn a light on, but just for 5 Minutes, then it goes off and you need to weld in the dark to put it on again.
A StayOn_Weldable would loose its "blue bar" slowly (speed variable) and needs to get welded regulary to stay "up" - When it goes above a given percentage it triggers "A" (e.g. door opens) when it goes below a given percentage it triggers "B" (e.g. door closes).
-> when you need to weld infinite times on something to keep it on/open/shut the negative part of the "weld infinite" effect gets nullified.

(Coop_weldable = you need 2 Welders at once to weld forward.)

This post has been edited by Ollj: Mar 15 2003, 05:38 PM

most welds can be opened by gorge spit anyway

I think the idea has merit. Here's an idea: Put all charge weapons (Mines, Cells, Nukes?) into the fourth weapon slot, and make Welder replace 3rd slot.

QUOTE (z.x. bogglestiensky @ Mar 15 2003, 03:38 PM)

most welds can be opened by gorge spit anyway

yep, and then they can't ever be closed again -- i mentioned this in the post above, and spent a few paragraphs stating why it leads to completely different gameplay from what i'm proposing.

EDIT: under "analysis of welder gamplay / reason for development"

This post has been edited by XP-Cagey: Mar 15 2003, 05:47 PM

oh

i never realised they couldnt be closed again.

sorry for wasting your time


good idea you got there

Hella nice idea. It'd give the mappers more variety in creating areas (hmm. Should i use a weldable or a cell in this situation?) and it'd be completly dependant on the situation at hand, which can give loads of possable secondary objectives:

It could also be used as a "Power-me-up" sort of mapping technique where there is a pre-set nuke position or a mechanized door opener on the map and marines have to put in like ~2-10 cells to operate the machinery or open the door or power up the bomb or whatever

Is destroyable by aliens so they can kill the cell and close their hive back up if it was a door or something; a power cell required to make a vaccum in the hive, killing all inside + sucking them out or something could be made to incorperate this.
----

The possabilities are endless, however, taking up a weapons slot with another non-weapon may not be the best use. Maybe the cell could "shock" the aliens doing 20 damage that evades armor and has 200 ammo with 0 reserve (immagine HMG with no spare ammo and only that one clip to use) providing 20 available shocks. after the shocks use is gone you have to goto the armory to recharge them. high ammo takes awhile to recharge so it isn't over-used.

*Light bulb turns on in head*

Maybe the team_powersocket could have a flag or something that slowly drains power, and is shown on the socket model; a "Charge % Remaining" would be interesting to see, and provide another possability; Battery charged lights.

Pop the cell into the socket and the lights turn on for 5 minutes or something and after the 5 minutes the cell is drained and has to be recharged at a armory; and whats good about this is that it is at the descretion of the mapper so it can varry from map to map. Maybe even a team_socketrecharge entity that can recharge the cell at a set rate.

OMG this idea is awsome!

I like the idea, I'm also impressed by how well thought out and articulated your thoughts are. I personally would love to find this in the game, however it is quite a drastic alteration to current gameplay (and the only real way I see this being implemented is if Flayra decides to replace the welder with it, something I'm not sure he'd be willing to do). Dont get me wrong, I definitely see very defineable differences between this Power Cell idea and welders, and I personally like the idea, but In my opinion, the odds of such an idea appealing to flay before V 2.0 are slim to none simply because he likes to keep NS as simple as possible, no easy task considering it's inherent complexity. Keep your fingers crossed for good ol v.2 This idea certainly deserves looking over by high up eyes for future versions.

since when was there nukes in Natural Selection?

I'm assuming he's talking about a switch activating a trigger_hurt with some flashy particle effects added. Nuke.

QUOTE (XP-Cagey @ Mar 15 2003, 03:58 PM)

Summary: Use "power cells" that can be carried between power socket locations in a map by marines

Makes me think of a certain segment of System Shock 2...

To be frank, I'd rather see it that the ALIENS get a way to interact with the map... right now the marines already have welding, but the aliens have... what? Biting isn't really used for anything interesting, and has no special tool requirements...

I'd say power cells... no.

A new use for weldables, and a variety of new interactions with weldable map points is what this post should be IMO. Reversable welds, reversable damage areas (500 damage, lights turn off, marines weld it lights turn on: no limit to number of reversals) and other things to this effect would very much fit the NS atmosphere. I don't think that lugging a battery to a power socket time and again would produce the same effect, and the welder being an infinite use weapon is complete fiction.

I just think that the introduction of the power cell would be useless when a tweak to the welder and environment could accomplish the exact same thing.

QUOTE (Humbaba)

... the odds of such an idea appealing to flay before V 2.0 are slim to none ...

I agree that this is something that might be more appropriate for something like an NS 2.0 release when major changes (like the possibility of alternate gameplay modes) are on the discussion table anyway. Power cells could become a natural way to implement a command point style map for creating alternate victory conditions (e.g. power an antenna from 4 points simultaneously to send a distress signal for immediate rescue and win as marines).

That said, I felt tossing it out as an idea earlier in the mod's life couldn't hurt any--my motivation for the enhancement is pretty simple: I want to make my maps as immersive and interactive as possible. The example above could be approximated with a welder (repair four points simultaneously), but as you mention there are very definable differences between the ideas (reiterated below ).

I wasn't originally thinking of an outright replacement for the welder, but if Flayra doesn't want to complicate the mod further, then this definitely won't be implemented as an additional weapon since it creates additional choices for marines to make.

QUOTE (Terr)

I'd rather see it that the ALIENS get a way to interact with the map...

Yep, I agree it would be nice to see more alien interaction with maps -- the ability to bite things apart is actually already there with func_breakable objects (or did you mean items that respond only to alien damage?). People in the mapping forum have been discussed the idea of using a gorge infestation growth ability in preset locations to enhance map interactivity with aliens--a reasonable possibility IMO .

That said, there's no reason why one sort of additional ability should preclude another, especially if they're added to opposite teams.

QUOTE (Ollj)

Marines are no mules.

Members of the United States Marine Corps are asked to carry many items you'd take on a camping trip while in the field (source: the USMC's official website). You might argue that having Frontiersmen carry around power cells doesn't fit the NS universe... It's important to remember, however, that the normal abilities of the commander and the station's inherent systems are greatly reduced due to the "nano-gridlock" mentioned in the Sanji backstory, so the idea of manually reestablishing power to an area isn't foreign to the game's premise. There aren't any electricians (or an Army Corps of Engineers) available, and the task itself is pretty simple: "How many marines does it take to screw in a lightbulb?". Marines are already being asked to do the grunt work of building structures due to the interference of The Bacterium, so this is another non-combat chore to potentially add to the list of duties imposed by the unusually hostile environment.

QUOTE (Kaniran @ Mar 15 2003, 10:40 PM)

I don't think that lugging a battery to a power socket time and again would produce the same effect, and the welder being an infinite use weapon is complete fiction. ... I just think that the introduction of the power cell would be useless when a tweak to the welder and environment could accomplish the exact same thing.

I don't understand how these two points are compatible.

My original proposal didn't mention any battery drain--that was added to the discussion later, and I agree that it would require separate consideration for balancing purposes.

A welder's infinite use is not fiction, complete or otherwise--firing it does not deplete any resource. You can continuously fire a single welder for an indefinite period of time until it is removed from play (which, BTW, is the correct way to implement it IMO). If I said that marines will never need to buy a second welder (a different argument entirely), that would be wrong because players can die and lose weapons. The fact remains, however, that careful control and protection of a marine with a welder can mean using a single welder without replacement for most of a round and on most of the weldable points for a map using a total of 10 resources.

The welder as HA/HMG support does throw away resources if and when that rush fails, but I'm talking about the welder as an environment modification device, an operative mode with a potentially long lifetime if the marines are working as a team or the aliens aren't covering the level well, which is a common circumstance . I don't necessarily want the resource cost for an effect to be related to the effectiveness of the alien team at killing welder wielders (heh-heh).

I'm already using func_weldables in creative ways that I haven't seen in forum discussion, and I posted about making func_weldable brushes reversible infinite times almost two months ago--I'm all for enhancing the functionality of the welder as I stated in my post above. Personally, however, I think that a form of interaction with the environment that goes beyond welding and pressing buttons would create a more immersive experience. The natural purpose of a welder is to cut or join two pieces of metal, which leaves something to be desired even when you're creative. Using an analogy with a less flexible tool, we wouldn't want all the maps to have nail-based interactivity if NS had a hammer instead of a welder .

If you reread my original post, I gave three specific reasons why welders simply can't provide the same sort of gameplay that cells would produce even if you assume that each welder is used in a single location before it is removed from play by the death of its user, approximating a one-cell-per-effect approach with reversible welds:

• cells could vary the cost of each effect so that the resource drain is proportional to each effect's reward--welders can only vary the time investment required for an effect.
  
• cells could be moved / reconfigured after placement to shift resource allocation on a marine team strapped for cash--a weld is immobile and has no inherent resource cost, removing the ability to make this sort of decision. Imagine a room with three sockets independantly powering three different doors -- marines could operate one door at a time by swapping the cell... can't do that sort of thing with a welder.
  
• destroying cells would hurt a marine team's resource economy directly--the act of breaking a weld doesn't cost the marine team any resources. You must kill the person who created the weld and guard the weapon to make sure nobody else recovers it, which is a separate task from destroying the result of the weapon's use--especially when someone welds an area and leaves. The fact that resources are tied directly to the object being left behind increases the marines' incentive to defend the area.

I think this is an inspired idea, really clever. I have a few issues though.

1) Slot 2? I don't think you should have to give up a weapon to do something which will probably never do any damage, is destroyable, has a relatively narrow focus (i.e. only one use), and is a limited shot item with no refills. Mines, and welder both do damage, with mines doing a lot of damage, and the welder doing many useful things. I think a power cell would be a perfect canidate for a 4th slot.

2) How would this affect the welder? There would be no more weldables at all? Since that is 1/3 of the welders functionality, would the welder be cheaper?

3) Being destroyable seems to be a huge nerf. Perhaps only melee or only ranged attacks damage it? Or maybe it it makes a big explosion when destroyed, so smaller aliens would be killed but they would have succeeded in destroying it.

Once again, I think this is really a great idea. It would make for very interesting gameplay, much more than the already-great weld points even.

This post has been edited by Big Game Hunter: Mar 16 2003, 03:26 AM

I think the whole welding thing is somewhat flawed as it stands. If the various implementation-bugs could be ironed out that would go a long way though, ie. the need for toggleable weldables for instance. In essense, the things already explained very well by XP.

But still, I favor adding a system that would impose an economical/reward tradeoff, instead of the current time/reward thing. I don't know about the batteries having limited power, while I like the idea in that it makes logic sense, I think it may complicate things too much. The bare-boned suggestion put forward by XP is the one that appeals the most to me.

Personally I'm for keeping the aliens unable to change their environment much, it seems like a marine job to me. Aliens, imo, should be able to destroy pro-marine environment-modifications as the level-designer sees fit. It would mean maps could be made to slightly favor the aliens, until marines moves in to attempt to make things more friendly.


On a final note, XP-Cagey, that was a very well-written suggestion, if nothing else it should serve as a positive rolemodel for others to follow

This post has been edited by gaggle: Mar 16 2003, 08:28 AM

Also, a map-based variable should be included for the amount of cells available at one time.
-1 = As many as you want
0 = none
1-anything = Only that many.

So you could have a map with 7 power sockets, but only 4 cells available.

a very intriguing idea cagey. i am impressed with the level of thought you've put into it and seriously believe that it would give rise to a whole new suite of exciting gameplay possibilities.
i do agree with humbaba that it's more of a v2 possibility, but most certainly worth discussing now. i really do like the idea of a welder and would never like to see it replaced. a suggestion of this nature is somewhat of a threat to its existence since access problems/gameplay stuff can be addressed by either method. unfortunately, it also increases the complexity of the game a bit and may prove difficult for new players to figure out what's going on (problems most easily solved by intuitive and distinctive models; distinctively shaped powercells and well signed/lit/illustrated sockets of an appropraite shape)

But the gameplay possibilities...oh, you've got me dreaming already.
I was wondering, could you think of a possible way that this effect could be simulated using current map entities? Even if it was to a limited extent, it would be very illustrative of the gameplay and teamwork value of the idea.
I would love to see the gameplay options in NS evolve much beyond the current 'tech-up and destroy' situation. Although this situation involves a lot of teamwork and coordination that i have found makes NS by far one of the most interesting games to play and interact with other people through, i can only hope this can be extended further.

this is really interesting

as somebody already mentioned, you do the same in System Shock 2, there you first have to recharge empty cells, maybe an option too...

QUOTE (Wurmspawn @ Mar 31 2003, 11:50 AM)

I was wondering, could you think of a possible way that this effect could be simulated using current map entities? Even if it was to a limited extent, it would be very illustrative of the gameplay and teamwork value of the idea.

Now that I'm not the one performing the thread necromancy, I might as well answer this

I really haven't been able to come up with a way to tell which marines have picked up a power cell using just the map entities (since AFAIK the game* ents aren't available), so it'd be really difficult to simulate the basic idea of moving the item from point to point properly. Since it's also currently impossible for a map ent to interact directly with team resource counts (hmmm... tangent suggestion and discussion? I haven't examined this at all) I don't believe any useful simulation could be made using the NS mapping entity set.

This might, however, be something that could be programmed into a metamod for testing -- I haven't looked at what hooks are available for metamod code.

The effects would rock but wouldnt giving the marines such a huge controle (and alternate objective(s)) in a map give them WAY too much power? It's understandable that they have technology on their side but still..
If they can control even 5% of enviromental influences it could be very deadly and nigh impossible to balance.
Flooding rooms, electrifying floors and what not..
I LOVE the idea..but I don't think that gameplay wise it can be done.